Surprise! Red Tier Now Begins Sunday; Downtown Disney Restaurants???

[TP2000]

I'm saying this as an independent. But it seems I have touched a nerve. Both parties have some serious flaws, but it is undeniable fact that this particular party is sliding further and further down an anti-truth and anti-science path. A path that has led to many things, but in the context of this thread, needless death as a direct result of an unchecked pandemic. If those in charge of this party before the admin change would have put together a competent covid strategy we would not be having this discussion would we?

But that's not the type of government we have, or have ever had. We are a federal republic with 50 states, and each state governor is responsible for the health authorities and strategy to run them in the state he/she governs. There's no US federal health authority, only federal bureaucracies that set guidelines and distribute funds for the individual states to manage independently.

(There are two federal health authorities that provide direct care to some Americans; the Veteran's Administration and the Indian Health Service. I have first hand experience with the VA, and it's nothing to brag about.)

It's up to the state leaders to know how to spend the money best; thus in Florida they spend health money on mosquito abatement that isn't a problem 3,000 miles away in Washington state where they spend more money on frostbite.

Interestingly, the worst death rates in the USA were all in states led by majority Democrat rule, often for decades. If Texas had the same death rates as New York, we'd never hear the end of it in the media. Or if Chris Christie hadn't left office and replaced with a Democrat several years before Covid, he'd be crucified every Saturday on SNL. But New York and the Northeast governors escape all criticism because they have a D next to their title.

Covid Death Rates by State as of March 2nd, 2021 and their Governors

#1 New Jersey = 2,626 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat Phil Murphy
#2 New York = 2,469 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat Mario Cuomo
#3 Rhode Island = 2,384 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat Gina Raimondo
#24 Texas = 1,524 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Greg Abbott
#27 Florida = 1,450 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Ron DeSantis
#48 Alaska = 409 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Mike Dunleavy
#49 Vermont = 330 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Phil Scott
#50 Hawaii = 310 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat David Ige

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

 

[TP2000]

If those in charge of this party before the admin change would have put together a competent covid strategy we would not be having this discussion would we?

Quoting you again, not to pick on you but because it's such a genuinely interesting thing to discuss.

We have a situation where mutated Covid strains are now circulating in the American public and are predicted to become the primary strains this spring.

California's coronavirus strain looks increasingly dangerous: 'The devil is already here'

California's coronavirus strain is more transmissible than its predecessors, is more resistant to vaccines and may cause more severe cases of COVID-19.

www.latimes.com

So what is the Biden Administration doing about that? What processes are Biden's administration using to prevent the transmission of these more dangerous and more transmissible strains? What instruction are they giving to Governor Newsom to respond? (Because all the rumors out of Sacramento are that Newsom is going to be relaxing current mandates, not strengthening them or re-imposing cancelled mandates)

And if there is strategy and instruction coming from the Biden administration on the new strains, why is Governor DeSantis of Florida doing things very differently than Governor Newsom of California? Why are states allowed to differ in their governance under the Biden administration?

If it's Trump's fault that Covid spread through the USA in 2020, how is Biden going to prevent the mutated strains from spreading through the USA in 2021? Please provide examples of what Biden has done in the last 30 days to stop that spread from happening.

 

[denyuntilcaught]

Arbitrary metrics? The actual metrics provided to us by state and county governments that I post here? Those are "arbitrary" to you?

If the information from our state and county governments and used in major national media is "arbitrary", what metrics would you like me to post? What source are you using to decide that indoor dining is inherently dangerous? Because there has been no science or data provided in court that proves that is the case.

And as I suspected would happen in 2021, as more and more data pours in from government, the data shows that states that remained in lockdown (California) had no real difference than states that reopened eight months ago (Florida,)

March 2nd, 2021
California = 1,332 Deaths Per 1 Million (#29), 90,124 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Confirmed Case Fatality Rate 1.48%
Florida = 1,450 Deaths Per 1 Million (#27), 89,306 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Confirmed Case Fatality Rate 1.64%

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

No TP, by arbitrary metrics I was alluding to the data behind the Blueprint for a Safer Economy.

Basically, what I was saying is that I agree with you in lampooning the "science & data" approach, knowing that the KPIs themselves are what are arbitrary.

My larger point again is that no, I don't think we need to say we get to an arbitrary benchmark of say, 70% of a population vaccinated before we make such a specific action like opening restaurants for indoor dining. However, it's basic science - and common sense - that we're just too early out in the process to be encouraging people to gather inside a restaurant en masse.

This shouldn't be controversial.

 

[denyuntilcaught]

I'm pretty confident a party that can't tell the difference between an X and a Y chromosome shouldn't be lecturing other parties about science.

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between understanding the science behind genomics and oh, I don't know, understanding why people shouldn't be having massive political rallies in the middle of a pandemic.

 

[TP2000]

No TP, by arbitrary metrics I was alluding to the data behind the Blueprint for a Safer Economy.

Basically, what I was saying is that I agree with you in lampooning the "science & data" approach, knowing that the KPIs themselves are what are arbitrary.

My larger point again is that no, I don't think we need to say we get to an arbitrary benchmark of say, 70% of a population vaccinated before we make such a specific action like opening restaurants for indoor dining. However, it's basic science - and common sense - that we're just too early out in the process to be encouraging people to gather inside a restaurant en masse.

This shouldn't be controversial.

Ah, got it. Thanks for the clarification.

I just haven't been able to find any real data that shows indoor dining spreads Covid. The data that was provided on indoor dining in the LA County court case (that they lost badly) actually came from New York State, and just like the LA County contact tracing, it showed that the majority of Covid transmission in the restaurant industry was happening back in the crowded kitchens. It wasn't happening out in the dining room.

And the New York data came from last winter in New York before Social Distancing and such were formalized and rolled out to the restaurant industry.

But Covid transmission certainly wasn't happening out on the sanitized, Socially Distanced patio. And yet some folks here thought outdoor dining should be forbidden indefinitely. Until suddenly Governor Newsom reversed himself last month and said "Never mind!"

The science and data provided thus far shows Covid is being spread mostly back in the cramped, crowded kitchens where employees work shoulder to shoulder for 8 to 10 hours per day. And that Covid transmission is happening regardless of whether the dining room is open, or they are only making food to-go for hipster virtue signalers using Doordash.

Doordash or Dining Room - These Restaurant Employees Are Getting Covid Either Way

 

[castleparker]

If it's Trump's fault that Covid spread through the USA in 2020, how is Biden going to prevent the mutated strains from spreading through the USA in 2021? Please provide examples of what Biden has done in the last 30 days to stop that spread from happening.

You are glossing over my main point, which is that 45's covid strategy was anti-science at best, and willingly destructive to aid his reelection goals at worst. This has led to a situation that many of the R's emulated and has allowed the pandemic to rage on nation-wide. My point was not to pit D and R states against one another, as you are trying to do. If I had my way, I would want a thorough investigation in to all state's covid states. I'm sure that would make DeSantis particularly nervous, given what he has done to his data there. Though I will say that I believe population density is a major factor in why the top states are doing the worst. I'm sure a quick google search will set you straight though in respect to that. As far as the current administration vs the last one, at the very least the new president is not actively sabotaging the covid response by mocking/refusing to wear masks. Or willingly downplaying the severity of the virus, which sets a terrible example to his, lets say easily impressionable supporters. This alone makes his departure necessary.

 

[Disney Irish]

But that's not the type of government we have, or have ever had. We are a federal republic with 50 states, and each state governor is responsible for the health authorities and strategy to run them in the state he/she governs. There's no US federal health authority, only federal bureaucracies that set guidelines and distribute funds for the individual states to manage independently.

(There are two federal health authorities that provide direct care to some Americans; the Veteran's Administration and the Indian Health Service. I have first hand experience with the VA, and it's nothing to brag about.)

It's up to the state leaders to know how to spend the money best; thus in Florida they spend health money on mosquito abatement that isn't a problem 3,000 miles away in Washington state where they spend more money on frostbite.

Interestingly, the worst death rates in the USA were all in states led by majority Democrat rule, often for decades. If Texas had the same death rates as New York, we'd never hear the end of it in the media. Or if Chris Christie hadn't left office and replaced with a Democrat several years before Covid, he'd be crucified every Saturday on SNL. But New York and the Northeast governors escape all criticism because they have a D next to their title.

Covid Death Rates by State as of March 2nd, 2021 and their Governors

#1 New Jersey = 2,626 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat Phil Murphy
#2 New York = 2,469 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat Mario Cuomo
#3 Rhode Island = 2,384 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat Gina Raimondo
#24 Texas = 1,524 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Greg Abbott
#27 Florida = 1,450 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Ron DeSantis
#48 Alaska = 409 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Mike Dunleavy
#49 Vermont = 330 Deaths Per 1 Million - Republican Phil Scott
#50 Hawaii = 310 Deaths Per 1 Million - Democrat David Ige

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

Honest question, why do you cherry pick so much? For example why did you leave off Mississippi, Arizona, South Dakota, Louisiana, and Alabama all of which are Red states and all of which are in the top 10.

Stop cherry picking, if you're going to present data let the data speak for itself. Don't trying to put it in some order or leave out pieces of data.

 

[TP2000]

You are glossing over my main point, which is that 45's covid strategy was anti-science at best, and willingly destructive to aid his reelection goals at worst. This has led to a situation that has allowed the pandemic to rage on nation-wide. My point was not to pit D and R states against one another, as you are trying to do. If I had my way, I would want a thorough investigation in to all state's covid states. I'm sure that would make DeSantis particularly nervous, given what he has done to his data there. Though I will say that I believe population density is a major factor in why the top states are doing the worst. I'm sure a quick google search will set you straight though in respect to that. As far as the current administration vs the last one, at the very least the new president is not actively sabotaging the covid response by mocking/refusing to wear masks. Or willingly downplaying the severity of the virus, which sets a terrible example to his, lets say easily impressionable supporters. This alone makes his departure necessary.

So basically you admit that our country is a federal republic of 50 states, and its up to each state to administer its own health authorities and issue public health instruction and rules to citizens and industry in that state. A President can't change that.

You just wanted President Trump to virtue signal more and put on a little show and maybe make that cutesy heart sign like all the cool kids do? Doing more of the cutesy heart sign would stop Covid from killing all those nursing home patients in New York?

 

[TP2000]

Honest question, why do you cherry pick so much? For example why did you leave off Mississippi, Arizona, South Dakota, Louisiana, and Alabama all of which are Red states and all of which are in the top 10.

Stop cherry picking, if you're going to present data let the data speak for itself. Don't trying to put it in some order or leave out pieces of data.

I usually take the top three states and the bottom three states, and then add in the two states that have Disney theme parks in them for comparison. Hawaii is a very liberal state that's been run by Democrats for decades, and it's ranked #50 for deaths. Mahalo!

I also ALWAYS include the link to the reputable government or media source that the data comes from. If you'd like to list all 50 states, be my guest. But the data I provided is not altered or adjusted by me, it is simply the raw data.

I take it you are a big Governor Cuomo fan?

 

[Disney Irish]

I usually take the top three states and the bottom three states, and then add in the two states that have Disney theme parks in them for comparison.

I also ALWAYS include the link to the reputable government or media source that the data comes from. If you'd like to list all 50 states, be my guest. But the data I provided is not altered or adjusted by me, it is simply the raw data.

I take it you are a big Governor Cuomo fan?

I'm not particularly a fan of the NY governor. Honestly I don't really care much about NY. As I've stated previously I live in CA, that is the state I care about.

My point is just list the top 10 and let the reader decide if they want to investigate further, not really a reason to list the rest unless you're trying to present some narrative.

Also last I checked Texas doesn't have a Disney Park in it despite what some around here wished would happen.

 

[TP2000]

I'm not particularly a fan of the NY governor. Honestly I don't really care much about NY. As I've stated previously I live in CA, that is the state I care about.

My point is just list the top 10 and let the reader decide if they want to investigate further, not really a reason to list the rest unless you're trying to present some narrative.

But the two states that have Disney theme parks are not in the top 10, they are down in the mid-pack.

I also think it's important to rank the bottom state/states to give a point of reference. But the numbers still speak for themselves, especially here as we talk about reopening Disneyland.

California is on eternal lockdown and Florida reopened eight months ago. California's continued lockdown doesn't seem to have worked any differently than Florida's full reopening eight months ago. Just going by the hard data, of course.

California = 1,332 Deaths Per 1 Million (#29), 90,124 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, State Unemployment Rate 9.0%
Florida = 1,450 Deaths Per 1 Million (#27), 89,306 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, State Unemployment Rate 6.1%

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

 

[Disney Irish]

But the two states that have Disney theme parks are not in the top 10, they are down in the mid-pack.

I also think it's important to rank the bottom state/states to give a point of reference. But the numbers still speak for themselves, especially here as we talk about reopening Disneyland.

California is on eternal lockdown and Florida reopened eight months ago. California's continued lockdown doesn't seem to have worked any differently than Florida's full reopening eight months ago. Just going by the hard data, of course.

California = 1,332 Deaths Per 1 Million (#29), 90,124 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Confirmed Case Fatality Rate 1.48%
Florida = 1,450 Deaths Per 1 Million (#27), 89,306 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Confirmed Case Fatality Rate 1.64%

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

Well that is still debatable regarding CA vs FL.

Looking at the "raw" data, FL at being almost half the size of CA has effectively the SAME number of people infected. Saying that another way, CA being almost twice as big in terms of population should have had twice as many infections as FL if what you're saying is to be believed. But we haven't. So that indicates that from pure infection rate the CA lock downs was more effective at preventing COVID infections than FL being open.

California = 90,124 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Population 39.51M
Florida = 89,306 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Population 21.48M

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

 

[TP2000]

Cough...Operation Warp Speed....Cough

No. Freaking. Kidding!

Operation Warp Speed is why the USA is so far ahead of all those stylish European countries we have always been told have much better health care than us. Also Canada, who has socialized nationalized health care that we've long been told is how the USA should do it. We were supposed to "join the civilized world" and give the federal government complete control of our health care system.

Vaccination Rates As of March 2nd, 2021

United States = 23.7 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 15.6% Population Received First Dose, 8.0% Population Received Both Doses

Germany = 7.7 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 5.1% Population Received First Dose, 2.6% Population Received Both Doses
Italy = 7.5 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 5.1% Population Received First Dose, 2.4% Population Received Both Doses
France = 7.2 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 4.7% Population Received First Dose, 2.5% Population Received Both Doses
Belgium = 7.2 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 4.5% Population Received First Dose, 2.7% Population Received Both Doses
Canada = 5.3 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 2.6% Population Received First Dose, 1.4% Population Received Both Doses
Australia = 0.1 Doses Per 100 Citizens, 0.1% Population Received First Dose, 0.0% Population Received Both Doses

Can you even imagine how the news media would be screaming every night if the statistics on Canada and the USA were reversed? If Trump's USA had a 5.3 per capita vaccine rate and Trudeau's Canada had a rate over quadruple that at 23.7 doses per capita?!?

Instead, the USA leads the world on vaccinating its 330 million citizens for free and.... crickets.

More Than 12.7 Billion Shots Given: Covid-19 Tracker

Bloomberg counted up the shots administered in 184 countries and 59 US states and territories

www.bloomberg.com

 

[TP2000]

Well that is still debatable regarding CA vs FL.

Looking at the "raw" data, FL at being almost half the size of CA has effectively the SAME number of people infected. Saying that another way, CA being almost twice as big in terms of population should have had twice as many infections as FL if what you're saying is to be believed. But we haven't. So that indicates that from pure infection rate the CA lock downs was more effective at preventing COVID infections than FL being open.

California = 90,124 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Population 39.51M
Florida = 89,306 Confirmed Cases Per 1 Million, Population 21.48M

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per 1M Population | RealClearPolitics

Coronavirus Updates (COVID-19) Deaths & Cases per Population | RealClearPolitics

www.realclearpolitics.com

Those are the confirmed cases per 1 Million state residents. It's a per capita statistic. It's almost exactly even.

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

What I found interesting is that the Samueli's moving the San Diego Gulls to Five Point in Irvine for home games. Was in San Diego for my BD, turned on the TV (FOX 5) and watched part of the game being played. Of course, the Ice Surface and Dashers had San Diego Ads, but only 8 rows of seats.

For decades, AEG has managed the former San Diego Sports Arena, but in 2019, the city (landlord) picked the Samueli's "Anaheim Arena Management" to take over. But legal issues has prevented the switchover, so the Gulls moved up north. It is also an easier scouting trip!

But Honda Center is owned by the City, with the team having the long term lease to run all events at the Honda Center.

GPI is an amazing hockey facility. My son plays there and I’m there at least once a week. They spent around $130 million on the place and it’s a world class facility. They have a huge training facility on site and the locker rooms are huge and brand new compared to Pechanga Arena. I believe Five Point holds around 2,300 to 2,800 fans.

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

We have seriously considered driving to AZ to see the Kings play one game in May. Not sure we'll pull the trigger though...may depend on if we've all got the vaccine by then.

That cross my mind too about Arizona but I didn’t want to drive that far too see my team lose. Lol

 

[Disney Irish]

Uh...CA locked their entire state down and has 90.1K cases/million while Florida is wide open and lettin' the good times roll is below that at 89.3K cases/million (hence adjusting for population difference).

How do you get from that stat CA's lockdown and wholesale destruction of businesses and people's lives worked out better? An objective person would look at that and say CA's shutdowns accomplished nothing in terms of limiting the case count.

Total cases:

CA: 3.56M
FL: 1.92M

So...yeah.

I'm just talking on a pure infection rate, not the other aspects that you want to bring into it which is a whole different part of the discussion. But hey you do you, I'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Darkbeer1]

That cross my mind too about Arizona but I didn’t want to drive that far too see my team lose. Lol

You could always fly into Vegas....

 

[Disney Irish]

Those are the confirmed cases per 1 Million state residents. It's a per capita statistic. It's almost exactly even.

Yes, which is where some of the other numbers come into play. Had FL done more testing and contact tracing like CA did that number of theirs might be a lot higher. Ultimately it'll be history that decides which plan was better at preventing the spread of this virus, not us here on a Disney Fan Site.

 

[castleparker]

So basically you admit that our country is a federal republic of 50 states, and its up to each state to administer its own health authorities and issue public health instruction and rules to citizens and industry in that state. A President can't change that.

I never contested that notion, TP. Like always you are setting up strawmen arguments. I think it is obvious to everyone post January 6th that the very words of the president can influence the actions of a large amount of people. So yes, call setting a good example by the leader of the free world "virtual signaling" if you want, though this is trivializing it. You know it goes deeper than that. I would have thought you would have been a fan of leading by example for all the times you have criticized Gav for failing to do that. I have a question for you though, do you think that the party of 45 is heading in a dangerous direction and completely fumbled the Covid response? Or think that the previous administration did just fine by embracing anti-truth or anti-science? I may already know your answer but put it in words for everyone here.