Suit: Disney's "Pirates" Movie Pirated

tomm4004

New Member
askmike1 said:
I stand corrected. However, it is the same show and there is nothing in any of the other 8 Disney parks relating to the Lion King (except for brief cameos such as the one in Mickey's Philharmagic)
Really? In Paris, there's the Lion King show at MK and Lion King characters in Animagique at the Studios. In Florida, there's The Lion King show in AK, and there was a Lion King puppet show where Philharmagic currently is. So that's 4 out of 8 parks. At Disneyland there was The Lion King Celebration parade. So that's 5 out of 8 parks. There are Lion King characters in Fantasmic at MGM, so that's 6 out of 8. And of course there are character appearances and merchandise.

Success: I found a reference to a Tokyo Disneyland music album with a Lion King medley! So I was wrong. I'm glad to know that. It still doesn't tell anything about the original point of the thread though!
 

askmike1

Member
Okay, so I was partially wrong (there still is no attraction at DL featuring TLK...[waits to be proven wrong]).

Anywho, this comes from lionking.net
Disney makes no secret of the fact that TLK is very similar to Shakespeare's "Hamlet" in a large number of instances. Some parallels include:
  • A self-doubting, sorrowful hero
  • The hero's father, the rightful king, murdered by the hero's evil brother, who then usurps the throne
  • Exile of the hero when he realizes his life is in danger (from his uncle in one case, from the pride in the other)
  • Company for the hero in exile in the form of two comic, buffoonish characters
  • The ghost of the hero's father appears to him and commands him to take back what is rightfully his
Understandably, though, the parallels end at many key spots. In TLK:

  • Scar does not marry Sarabi
  • Timon and Pumbaa are not agents of Scar
  • The end is a triumphant one, not one in which the entire cast dies

Although scenes may be similar to Kimba (I don't think they are, but) the plot is definately Hamlet. The discrepencies they talk about are understandable, being it a Disney movie. Obviously they aren't going to have everyone die or too much evil (or scar marrying his brother's wife).

-Michael
http://mfw.frandt.com
CODE WHITE: "The Faucet's Rigged!"
 

tomm4004

New Member
But two animated movies about lions based on Hamlet? That's like two movies about giraffe's based on MacBeth!

I think there are two camps - those who adhere so closely to the Disney Corp. that they would never accept that they would do something like steal an idea - or deny it. And those who have no trouble believing that they could.
 

DisneyFan 2000

Well-Known Member
tomm4004 said:
But two animated movies about lions based on Hamlet? That's like two movies about giraffe's based on MacBeth!

I think there are two camps - those who adhere so closely to the Disney Corp. that they would never accept that they would do something like steal an idea - or deny it. And those who have no trouble believing that they could.

How about those who in this specific case have faith in Disney?
 

tomm4004

New Member
DisneyFan 2000 said:
How about those who in this specific case have faith in Disney?
The Lion King case is the most blatantly obvious. I think that anyone that believes Disney on this one (especially that none of their animators had ever heard of it!) will believe Disney on everthing else - and that seems to be the case from things I've read on the net. People who don't believe they did this, don't believe any of the other cases either - and in fact mock and deride the people who are claiming authorship, and the people who believe it's possible that those claims have merit.

Even Roy Disney called Simba Kimba in 1993 in a Prodigy Transcript:

http://www.kimbawlion.com/transcript.htm

Jill, you asked whether we had any "nice motherly figures"
in Disney's animated future.
Wait until you see next summer's "The Lion King," and
Kimba's mother. She's quite lovely.

Roy Disney

Try here for more picture comparisons. I don't remember these animals in Hamlet!

http://reekan-j.hp.infoseek.co.jp/60ani5.html
 

askmike1

Member
tomm4004 said:
I don't remember these animals in Hamlet!

Yeah, and I don't remember seeing any evil lion cubs in Romeo & Juliet, but Simba's Pride is undeniably based on that story.

Here I bring a section from lionking.org. Pay particular attention to the last two paragraphs.

But, while some see obvious references and influences to Tezuka's work in "Lion King," the story itself is quite different.


In "Kimba," the cub's mother dies aboard a ship and Kimba escapes, swimming back to shore. While trying to go home, he visits cities and realizes that mankind has created a wonderful civilization of laws--quite different from the law of the jungle.

In "Lion King," Simba leaves the pride after mistakenly believing that he had a role in his father's death.

In "Kimba," the hero battles poachers and trappers, a magic serpent and even the monster of Petrified Valley. He defends his domain against "the insect invasion," "the red menace" and "the gigantic grasshopper." Aiding his efforts are his animal friends, Dan'l Baboon, Pauley Cracker, Tadpole, Samson and Roger Ranger, who is a human.

In "Lion King," however, there are no human beings and Simba fights hyenas and Scar.

The character of Scar, the power hungry "black sheep" brother of Mufasa, is particularly intriguing to some observers. In the TV series, the villian Claw, who has a scar above his eye, takes over the throne in Kimba's abscence.

Takayuki Matsutani, president of Tezuka Productions in Tokyo, said there is some similarity between the animated creations on two counts: the son grows up to be the king's successor after his father's death, and the symbolic scene where Simba stands on a rock in "The Lion King," whereas in the Japanese version, the opening scene has Kimba standing on a rock. He also agreed there were similarities in the baboon, the bird, the hyenas and te evil lion.

"However, quite a few staff of our company saw a preview of 'The Lion King,' discussed this subject and came to the conclusion that you cannot avoid having these similarities as long as you use animals as characters and try to draw images out of them," Matsutani said.

"If the Disney Co. had gotten a hint from 'The Jungle Emperor,' Osamu Tezuka, a founder of our company, would have been pleased," he continued. "And, we feel the same way, rather than making a claim."

"Therefore, our company's general opinion is 'The Lion King' is a totally different piece from 'The Jungle Emperor' and is an original work completed by the Disney production's long-lasting excellent production technique." Asked about the apparent similarities, Minkoff said that whenever a story is based in Africa, it is "not unusual to have characters like a baboon, a bird or hyenas."

So of course, how many different ways can you draw lions and birds? Even they say that Disney is inocent.

-Michael
http://mfw.frandt.com
CODE WHITE: "The Faucet's Rigged!"
 

DisneyFan 2000

Well-Known Member
Let me ask you something Tom. Why is that only the most successful features are getting these lawsuits that somebody has already thought of it? Why don't they pick on The Rescuers or The Black Cauldron? Because those movies FLOPPED. Why would anyone be interested in The Rescuers's merchandise? Get the picture?

Lion King King, Pirates of the Caribbean are successful = Find themselves in a lawsuit.

The Rescuers, The Black Cauldron are unsuccessful = Don't find themselves in a lawsuit.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
DisneyFan 2000 said:
The Rescuers, The Black Cauldron are unsuccessful = Don't find themselves in a lawsuit.

Yes, and do you know why? Because Lloyd Alexander and Marjory Sharp both received their royalty checks and their names in the credits. Tezuka's widow is still waiting.
 

tomm4004

New Member
DisneyFan 2000 said:
Let me ask you something Tom. Why is that only the most successful features are getting these lawsuits that somebody has already thought of it? Why don't they pick on The Rescuers or The Black Cauldron? Because those movies FLOPPED. Why would anyone be interested in The Rescuers's merchandise? Get the picture?

Lion King King, Pirates of the Caribbean are successful = Find themselves in a lawsuit.

The Rescuers, The Black Cauldron are unsuccessful = Don't find themselves in a lawsuit.

I don't believe there has ever been a lawsuit in the case of The Lion King. There was a petition signed by more than 1,100 Japanese animators sent to the Disney Company in 1994/5.

(As for the position of the Japanese company, that's just them being typically humble. Also, this way they can release the Kimba DVDs and videos in the U.S. and Disney can't argue that they are the same. Very clever!)

As for only successful movies being sued, are you saying that Disney has been sued for Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, Mulan, Hercules, Poconantas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, etc., etc., etc.? I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of the lawsuits in those cases.

In fact, it doesn't seem as though there's ever been a lawsuit against Disney for an animated movie. So I'm not sure of the point of your post. As for live actions ones, I'm only aware of the Pirates (and The Village, which is really blatant). So people are not coming out of the woodwork to sue every successful Disney film. We have a couple cases, which appear to have merit. Maybe the Pirate and Nemo guys - there's not enough evidence to tell.

In the case of The Lion King, it's obvious. My guess is that Disney planned to get the rights, couldn't, so just continued on. Hence Roy Disney saying "Kimba" instead of "Simba," and Matthew Broderick saying he thought they were doing a remake.

Also, Disney likes to use material they know will work, which is why they take classic stories. In the case of Lion King, they also went for something that had a track record - a Japanese movie/TV series that, not only was based on Hamlet, but had played successfully on U.S. TV - and in Japan. Thus, they knew that the resonance of the story would work with audiences. This is important to know beforehand when you are basing your whole year on this movie. Remember, Eisner had said in the annual report that Beauty and the Beast had turned that entire year around. They needed a safe product - hence Kimba, The Lion King!

If there were hundreds of lawsuits being filed against every successful Disney venture, I might buy your argument - but there are very, very few.
 

DisneyFan 2000

Well-Known Member
tomm4004 said:
If there were hundreds of lawsuits being filed against every successful Disney venture, I might buy your argument - but there are very, very few.

I beg to differ. Type Disney in Google and find some of those forgotten lawsuits. You won't be disappointed.
 

tomm4004

New Member
DisneyFan 2000 said:
I beg to differ. Type Disney in Google and find some of those forgotten lawsuits. You won't be disappointed.
Could you please direct me to a couple specific cases where Disney has been sued for allegedly stealing ideas for animated movies? I did Google. I found lots of lawsuits but none like that, except Pirates. Most of the ones I found involved Disney suing somebody.

I did find this tidbit:

http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/disney/media-coverage2.html

But one Disney film has done rather well in Japan: The Lion King. This is perhaps because it has much in common with Osamu Tezuka's highly -regarded 1966 television series Jungle Emperor, screened in the US as Kimba The White Lion.

The Disney company has vehemently denied that The Lion King was influenced by Tezuka's story. Yet some of Disney's animators, and even Matthew Broderick (who provided the voice of Disney's Simba) said that they were aware of the original series from their own childhood. Helen McCarthy, editor of the British magazine Manga Mania, has noted a number of similarities between the two works, pointing out that '. . . both stories feature mandrill baboons as spiritual advisers to the king, hyena sidekicks to the usurper and poetic image sequences in which the image of a lion appears in the clouds'. The stampede sequence in The Lion King mirrors one in the Kimba series, in which Kimba also fails to stop the animals and attempts to throw off his kingly duties.

The Japanese reaction was considered. Tezuka Productions president Takayuki Matsutani issued a press release to the effect that his company ' . . . did not believe that lawsuits are an appropriate way of resolving disputes of this nature . . . We therefore have no intention at this time of filing a lawsuit against Disney'.
 

askmike1

Member
tomm4004 said:
Could you please direct me to a couple specific cases where Disney has been sued
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5082/ping.html (I guess they should also sue the makers of Ping-Pong)
http://www.wallacecollins.com/mr/ (halfway down the page...rediculous)
http://www.talkdisney.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-23694.html (Disney payed the proper royalties)
http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,146,00.html?yhnws (theres also the kneeling priest, s*x written in the clouds, Aladdin saying Take off your clothes, and numorous other lawsuits each as rediculous as the next)

But one Disney film has done rather well in Japan: The Lion King. This is perhaps because it has much in common with Osamu Tezuka's highly -regarded 1966 television series Jungle Emperor, screened in the US as Kimba The White Lion.
Or maybe because it was one of the highest grossing Animated Films in the world. I believe on the all-time international list, it is either #10 or 11.
Helen McCarthy, editor of the British magazine Manga Mania, has noted a number of similarities between the two works, pointing out that '. . . both stories feature mandrill baboons as spiritual advisers to the king, hyena sidekicks to the usurper and poetic image sequences in which the image of a lion appears in the clouds'.
Once again, so does Hamlet (although obviously not in the form of animals. Hamlet has the wise man, ghost father, brother becoming king, etc.
As for the Japanese company's reaction, if you had red the quote I gave before they said "Therefore, our company's general opinion is 'The Lion King' is a totally different piece from 'The Jungle Emperor' and is an original work completed by the Disney production's long-lasting excellent production technique."

After all, if you have a film in africa, there will almost definately be the same animals. As for Roy, do you think he could have just made a flub in his speech. Many people in our world (even high up people) do make simple mistakes. (Wait a minute, am I actually defending Roy? Somebody stop me)

-Michael
http://mfw.frandt.com
CODE WHITE: "The Cat!"
 

tomm4004

New Member
Thanks for the examples. Unfortunately, they are not cases where people sued Disney for deliberately stealing an idea, such as a book (The Village) or pre-existing movie (Lion King). Yes, there are lawsuits all the time (including ones initiated by Disney - remember them suing the Academy over the Snow White song?), but that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate claims. Disney are fanatical about their trademarks, why not PING?
askmike1 said:
Once again, so does Hamlet (although obviously not in the form of animals. Hamlet has the wise man, ghost father, brother becoming king, etc.
There's a lot more to it than that. Disney based a movie about lions on Hamlet - just like the Japanese version. The usage of the characters is similar, for example, evil hyenas. Why not good hyenas? Too many frames are similar. And Disney denies ever having heard of it!! I could go on and on but it's been covered before.

askmike1 said:
As for the Japanese company's reaction, if you had red the quote I gave before they said "Therefore, our company's general opinion is 'The Lion King' is a totally different piece from 'The Jungle Emperor' and is an original work completed by the Disney production's long-lasting excellent production technique."
Again, Japanese politeness and diplomacy could be the reason. The Japanese don't like to air their dirty laundry in public. This is exactly what they would expect to say. The question to ask yourself is: why were they even being asked the question if there is no similarity between the two projects? And, who is to say that there wasn't a quiet settlement (as there was with Lucas and The Hidden Fortress)?

askmike1 said:
...As for Roy, do you think he could have just made a flub in his speech. Many people in our world (even high up people) do make simple mistakes.
Then why didn't he say Timba or Mimba or Nimba? And why did Matthew B. think they were doing a remake?

There's no point in arguing this any further. It's been out there for ten years and people will just believe what they want. It's too bad that some people just automatically assume the case is meritless and believe the corporation without any examination.
 

askmike1

Member
I do want to say one more thing? Do you seriously believe the PING lawsuit? Ping is a chinese name that means peaceful. So I guess nobody in China can name their son/daughter ping? [sarcastic]And when I think of Golf, the first thing that comes to mind is China.[/sarcastic] I mean, the Spike Lee/Spike TV case had more merit than this.

I also think that Disney shouldn't be sued for certain things. For example, the Nemo case should have been against Pixar. The PotC case should be against PotC writers. Disney just finances the movies and distributes it (in the case of PotC and Pixar products).

-Michael
http://mfw.frandt.com
CODE WHITE: "The Faucet's Rigged!"
 

DisneyFan 2000

Well-Known Member
askmike1 said:
I do want to say one more thing? Do you seriously believe the PING lawsuit? Ping is a chinese name that means peaceful. So I guess nobody in China can name their son/daughter ping? [sarcastic]And when I think of Golf, the first thing that comes to mind is China.[/sarcastic] I mean, the Spike Lee/Spike TV case had more merit than this.

Yeah, I guess no one in Africa can call their pet lion Simba (I did mention that was the definition, right? Simba = Lion). :rolleyes:
 

Indy95

New Member
So I guess what he's saying is somebody should also sue the makers of "Kimba" for ripping-off Hamlet. And then somebody should sue Shakespeare for ripping off Greek tragedies and morality plays. And then somebody should sue Greek tragedies and morality plays for ripping-off mythology. And then...:rolleyes:
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Indy95 said:
So I guess what he's saying is somebody should also sue the makers of "Kimba" for ripping-off Hamlet. And then somebody should sue Shakespeare for ripping off Greek tragedies and morality plays. And then somebody should sue Greek tragedies and morality plays for ripping-off mythology. And then...:rolleyes:

So if I'm hearing it right you're proposing an end to all intellectual property rights? No more patents, authorship of books, or works of art? I don't think Disney would like that very much, seeing as how they LOVE to sue people for this kind of thing.
http://www.blogdisney.com/comments/42_0_1_0_C/
http://www.brokennewz.com/usnews/demdwarves.asp
http://www.snopes.com/disney/wdco/daycare.htm

Remember, Disney is the company that buys out supreme court justices to re-write the laws regarding works becoming public domain in order to protect their interests.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20020305_sprigman.html
 

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