Star Wars Land announced for Disney's Hollywood Studios

[MisterPenguin]

That

Sounds stupid.

Yeah, the Empire Strikes Back's basic plot is sooooo stupid.

 

[SpoiledBlueMilk]

That

Sounds stupid.

Take this description of the footage from the investor event with all the grains of salt available.

 

[SpoiledBlueMilk]

Or, Obi is sought out by someone who needs help (e.g., by Leia's adopted parents who know he's alive). He leaves Tatooine and is spotted. Epic duel. Obi flees or is left for supposedly being dead, most likely a deadly fall since that never really kills anyone Force sensitive.

There is talk of a water planet (Kamino?) - makes me think Obi does leave the desert....

 

[HauntedPirate]

I look at the slate of announced SW projects and, to be honest, most of it doesn't do much for me at the moment, mostly because I need to know more about plots and whatnot. So, I am by no means closing the door on most of the projects, as there is some promise. Then, I have a stomach-churning realization - What would this have looked like if Kiri Hart was still employed by LFL... *shudder*

 

[_caleb]

I know the Star Wars fan base will never be satisfied with anything, but it seems like these new shows are a really good way to connect a lot of the crossed wires in the overarching storyline.

The Obi Wan show can fill in some gaps in the story, feature Anakin as Vader and Obi Wan, and still wrap up with enough time left for the four lines of dialog in Episode 4 to still make sense. If it starts by showing Vader fighting like he did in the last 10 minutes of Rogue One, but then deteriorate to the point that he has to slow his fighting style to what it was in Episode 4, I will be happy.

The Mandalorian is filling in lots of backstory about Boba Fett, a longstanding fan favorite. The new spinoffs then better connect the animates series to the films, and introduce some of the best parts from the animated series into live action.

I'm looking forward to a bunch of interconnected Star Wars series, each with its own style and tone, all telling different stories set in the familiar Star Wars universe.

 

[HauntedPirate]

I know the Star Wars fan base will never be satisfied with anything, but it seems like these new shows are a really good way to connect a lot of the crossed wires in the overarching storyline.

The Obi Wan show can fill in some gaps in the story, feature Anakin as Vader and Obi Wan, and still wrap up with enough time left for the four lines of dialog in Episode 4 to still make sense. If it starts by showing Vader fighting like he did in the last 10 minutes of Rogue One, but then deteriorate to the point that he has to slow his fighting style to what it was in Episode 4, I will be happy.

The Mandalorian is filling in lots of backstory about Boba Fett, a longstanding fan favorite. The new spinoffs then better connect the animates series to the films, and introduce some of the best parts from the animated series into live action.

I'm looking forward to a bunch of interconnected Star Wars series, each with its own style and tone, all telling different stories set in the familiar Star Wars universe.

How is Mando filling in Boba Fett’s backstory? He was swallowed by the Sarlacc, and somehow managed to get out, which they haven’t addressed yet. How he became known as one of the best and feared bounty hunters in the galaxy would be filling in his backstory.

Sometimes simpler is better, like Obi Wan watched over Luke on a remote planet that the Emperor and Vader couldn’t sense, and was ready to defend or move him if the Empire came too close. Same with Yoda. No real need for “filling in the gaps”, except Disney finds themselves desperately needing new content for D+, in order to justify the coming price increase.

There isn’t always a need to “fill in the gaps”, unless you’re obsessed with knowing all of the most minute details of every character and interaction. ‘Rogue One‘ comes to mind there. We know that the Rebels obtained the Death Star plans. We didn’t need a 2 hour movie telling us exactly how they did it, no matter how good or bad people thought the movie was. It was simply a movie money grab, like Disney is want to do, or at least was pre-Covid. Streaming could turn out to be beneficial for some of these, but not all.

 

[_caleb]

How is Mando filling in Boba Fett’s backstory? He was swallowed by the Sarlacc, and somehow managed to get out, which they haven’t addressed yet. How he became known as one of the best and feared bounty hunters in the galaxy would be filling in his backstory.

One step at a time! With the reveal, they brought into canon that he survived. I think there will be more about this that helps explain.

Sometimes simpler is better, like Obi Wan watched over Luke on a remote planet that the Emperor and Vader couldn’t sense, and was ready to defend or move him if the Empire came too close. Same with Yoda. No real need for “filling in the gaps”, except Disney finds themselves desperately needing new content for D+, in order to justify the coming price increase.

Cynical, but not wrong. To me, it would make as much sense to say, "here are some things that happened during that time" (in a way to strengthen what's already in the films) as it might to say, "absolutely nothing happened during all the years in between."

There isn’t always a need to “fill in the gaps”, unless you’re obsessed with knowing all of the most minute details of every character and interaction. ‘Rogue One‘ comes to mind there. We know that the Rebels obtained the Death Star plans. We didn’t need a 2 hour movie telling us exactly how they did it, no matter how good or bad people thought the movie was. It was simply a movie money grab, like Disney is want to do, or at least was pre-Covid. Streaming could turn out to be beneficial for some of these, but not all.

By this logic, it seems that the prequels would be an unnecessary money grab as well (since they fill in the backstory of Anakin/Darth Vader)? I think I get what you mean about exact details being a bit unnecessary, but isn't that the nature of an expanded universe if you want it to also be tied to existing characters and story?

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

Yeah, the Empire Strikes Back's basic plot is sooooo stupid.

That is not the plot of Empire at all.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Hierarchy of space is the designing of space so as to communicate the importance of difference spaces, so that the experiencer understands the primary spaces as important. There is no single way this is done, usually employing the entire array of design tools including scale, mass, ornament, placement and everything else that can go into a design. The height and central placement of Cinderella Castle points to its importance. The lobby of a hotel is often taller than the room corridors. You're living room is probably larger and more centrally located than your bedroom and your closet may be hidden in the bathroom. The arcades of Main Street, USA in Paris are smaller than the street and it would be really weird if they were bigger, because they are the back way down. There are complaints about World Bazaar being confusing even though it is only a cross because the size and shape of Center Street is similar to that of Main Street, the two are both treated as primary. Disney's Animal Kingdom confuses people, and mores before the paths were widened, because it was hard to discern which went where because the paths were visually and spatially similar.

What is the most important space in Black Spire Outpost? Is it the area in front of the major E-Ticket that is largely path and landscaping? Is it the space around the iconic Millennium Falcon that is hidden behind buildings and rock work? Is it the stages off to the sides that were supposed to host shows? Or, as an old trading post on the outskirts of the galaxy, is it the market where people from across the galaxy come to trade that is also sitting off to the side? Wanting to spread out crowds and encourage exploration are good ideas, but the land should have some sort of clear experiential center where activity is taking place. Just walking into the land blindly you come across of buildings that just looked closed. They have no windows and solid doors that are closed. There is nothing that tells you that you really need to go over there and up the stairs to find the market or up and then over to find the Falcon or turn around and head back to the woods for the signature attraction. Excepting Ronto Roasters most everything is hidden out of view and nothing really tells you how to find it, not even a weenie.

Pattern language is the whole system by which design problems are addressed. It is a recognition that designs solve problems in certain reoccurring ways. At its simplest level a door is a type of pattern, it is a common way we provide access and privacy for a room. All together these things build larger patterns that we recognize and understand. If you think about it, most land's don't have a lot of live entertainment. Even those that do, it is not constant. Losing the last of the Citizens of Hollywood is a shame but you did not see people talking about how dead those areas felt when they were on break. The entertainment is a plus that adds to the experience, but is not the absolute key to the experience. This is because other lands build on known pattern languages. We just sort of assume Main Street is occupied because there are windows everywhere and windows are for rooms that people use and not the broom closet. It was erroneous to say that Galaxy's Edge does not follow a pattern language, as it does, and more appropriate to say it does not follow an appropriate pattern language. The Star Wars aesthetic is far too rooted in the locales of the original trilogy that are largely not supposed to be inviting places and also a result of budget limitations. The world of Star Wars is oddly absent of windows with even the Cloud City not getting clear windows until the Special Editions. The Jetsons knew how to live in the clouds, huge panoramic windows and glass domes, not big solid walls. You're not going to buy a penthouse with bad views much less no views. Batuu as a new place had room to introduce "newish" ideas that make sense to a themed experience. There is nothing that readily communicates that there are shops or a bar behind solid walls with a single solid door. Nothing tells us this is a place where people live. Sure there are things like some sort of meticulous paint that is something someone spilled or whatnot but its not something that is just understood. On Main Street, USA we understand the pattern of a shop with residence or office above. We instantly understand it is a type of place where people live. We don't have that in Black Spire Outpost.

The issue of pattern language is, if not consciously, understood by Nintendo. The known world of Mario is mostly landscape, not city and not even really villages. It's a platformer and a bunch of static platforms would be a boring visual. All of that required animation is an acknowledgement of that lack of a pattern language. The organization of the land breaks with the classic games by not being very linear. There is a central space around which everything wraps where one congregates with others but then can see others walking around, can see the shops and dining, can see the Yoshi ride, can see the weenie of Bowser's Castle containing the marquee ride and even see the portal pipe that leads to Donkey Kong Country which, to those unfamiliar with the Super Mario Bros. games have been introduced to the pattern of portal pipes by entering the land through one. Donkey Kong Country then does the same by placing you into a center space that is bounded by the coaster whose entrance is ahead and provides access to the land's other venues.

Thank you for the thorough explanation of the concepts. I'm not sure if I agree that they are valid complaints against SWGE, however. You mentioned DAK's original walkways as a comparison, but that was the point, you were supposed to feel like you were exploring the wild, not navigating a theme park via obvious landmarks and focal points, though the park does have the Tree of Life as a constant navigational focal point. The intention with SWGE was pure realism. Real cities are not designed all at once with the intention of making them easy to navigate for tourists. Similarly, the lack of pattern language, well, it's an alien planet, it wouldn't follow our design logic. It all feels very appropriate for a locale the Star Wars universe (we see more slum planets than nice planets, after all), whether or not that makes for a fun environment is a different argument to be had.

Black Spire Outpost doesn't have a "most important space" because, again, its designed to -not- feel like a theme park land. The closest thing, I believe, would be the Falcon itself, and its surrounding plaza. The plaza is large, multiple paths lead to it, and the Falcon is prominently on display. Approaching it offers a similar reveal moment to the main alleyway to Gringotts. It isn't hidden at all, I'm not sure why you described it that way. I believe they walked the line here of making it an obvious point of interest while also having it make sense in-universe by not making it some sort of centerpiece icon for the land. The ship is cool to us, but in-universe its a "hunk of junk".

Rise of the Resistance is in the woods because it's a secret base. It's not part of Black Spire Outpost. (Granted, it's right next to it, but, suspension of disbelief for space constraints). I absolutely love that one of the best rides ever made doesn't have any marquee at all, and you instead check in through a lookout post for the base. Also, that is still an example of pattern language. We see that checkpoint. We recognize it as the entrance to a queue. We know queues lead to an attraction. We don't literally trek through the woods to find the secret base.

Basically, I see this as a "you call it a bug, I call it a feature" situation. They didn't follow standard theme park land layout design the same way Universal didn't follow standard theme park gift shop design when creating Hogsmeade. Disney opted for a land that requires you to explore and pay attention. A land that is big and sprawling enough to get disoriented in. A land that feels like it wasn't made for you. I personally enjoy it and would love for theme parks to continue the trend.

Moving this here since it’s about Star Wars Galaxy’s Edge and not Super Nintendo World.

Pattern language and hierarchy of space are not theme park design principles, they’re general design principles that have a basis in nature. I’m not one, but a melittologist could tell you different patterns in the hives of different species of bees. Trails through the woods are not all the same, a more important trail is going to be more traveled Resulting in it being wider and more clearly delineated. Cities that are not planned still have hierarchies and patterns. More important streets are typically wider with more and larger buildings. The skyline is not typically a uniform height, instead there is an area where it gets taller because this place is more important. A town square is not a theme park construct, it is a real life element employed in a theme park.

Humans are the dominate species in the Star Wars universe. Almost all of the main characters are human and even most important aliens are humanoid. Frog Lady was in her situation because the Galaxy wasn’t designed around her species but that of humans. Even as an alien planet, there is some nexus of activity. That is the interesting place and what should be explored.

Cities are built around important places. Even with all of its sprawl, most of the towns in central Florida are all still centered on where the train station was located, even decades after the train stopped. Walt Disney World exists because of this phenomenon and to keep it away from Disney’s projects. Black Spire Outpost, as a trading post, would have built up around the market where people are trading because it is the reason people are at that location. It’s the center of activity in the story and the most active place in the built land.

I describe the Millenium Falcon as hidden because it is hidden. The main path of the land has a branch that eventually gets to it, but the main path really avoids most everything. Getting to the Falcon involves either a U-turn or going up and down stairs with an elevated plaza intentionally blocking it from sight. It’s the closest any place gets to being a center with access to more activity, but as you note it makes sense for the land. Why is this space the important part of Black Spire Outpost? Is it a town square signifying some important civic place? And why is this hunk of junk plopped down in this important place? It’s only comprable to Gringott’s in both being hidden, but Diagon Alley is a bit of problem that has resulted in Team Members stationed out front to tell people it is there. Even then, the hidden aspects of Diagon Alley is only the entrance, a wall one must walk around, and not every element of the entire land. Once once enters Gringott’s is right there front and center at the end of a street, at an intersection where everywhere else connects. Go down Knockturn or Horizont Alleys and you still find your way to Gringott’s, an old important civic institution.

I wasn’t saying that Rise of the Resitance necessarily should have had more built around it but illustrating how there is no central place to the place of Black Spire Outpost. Being hidden in the woods does make sense for the story, but at some point it is part of a designed space. If it is outside of somewhere there should still be a somewhere that is understood. As I mentioned,d the main path skirts the edge of the land, it doesn’t actually take you to any place except sort of Rise of the Resistance and even then it is possible to walk right past.

Pattern language and hierarchy of space are how you get people to explore and look around. They are tools for communicating without signage that there is something in a space.

It’s odd that you now claim “It’s a feature, not a bug” when you have already acknowledged the bug, that many people describe the land as dead. That’s what I am seeking to explain, why the land feels devoid of activity without its live entertainment when other lands do not. If not these reasons, then what is it about the design that so clearly does not work that so many describe it as a land lacking activity?

 

[Tom Morrow]

Moving this here since it’s about Star Wars Galaxy’s Edge and not Super Nintendo World.

Pattern language and hierarchy of space are not theme park design principles, they’re general design principles that have a basis in nature. I’m not one, but a melittologist could tell you different patterns in the hives of different species of bees. Trails through the woods are not all the same, a more important trail is going to be more traveled Resulting in it being wider and more clearly delineated. Cities that are not planned still have hierarchies and patterns. More important streets are typically wider with more and larger buildings. The skyline is not typically a uniform height, instead there is an area where it gets taller because this place is more important. A town square is not a theme park construct, it is a real life element employed in a theme park.

Humans are the dominate species in the Star Wars universe. Almost all of the main characters are human and even most important aliens are humanoid. Frog Lady was in her situation because the Galaxy wasn’t designed around her species but that of humans. Even as an alien planet, there is some nexus of activity. That is the interesting place and what should be explored.

Cities are built around important places. Even with all of its sprawl, most of the towns in central Florida are all still centered on where the train station was located, even decades after the train stopped. Walt Disney World exists because of this phenomenon and to keep it away from Disney’s projects. Black Spire Outpost, as a trading post, would have built up around the market where people are trading because it is the reason people are at that location. It’s the center of activity in the story and the most active place in the built land.

I describe the Millenium Falcon as hidden because it is hidden. The main path of the land has a branch that eventually gets to it, but the main path really avoids most everything. Getting to the Falcon involves either a U-turn or going up and down stairs with an elevated plaza intentionally blocking it from sight. It’s the closest any place gets to being a center with access to more activity, but as you note it makes sense for the land. Why is this space the important part of Black Spire Outpost? Is it a town square signifying some important civic place? And why is this hunk of junk plopped down in this important place? It’s only comprable to Gringott’s in both being hidden, but Diagon Alley is a bit of problem that has resulted in Team Members stationed out front to tell people it is there. Even then, the hidden aspects of Diagon Alley is only the entrance, a wall one must walk around, and not every element of the entire land. Once once enters Gringott’s is right there front and center at the end of a street, at an intersection where everywhere else connects. Go down Knockturn or Horizont Alleys and you still find your way to Gringott’s, an old important civic institution.

I wasn’t saying that Rise of the Resitance necessarily should have had more built around it but illustrating how there is no central place to the place of Black Spire Outpost. Being hidden in the woods does make sense for the story, but at some point it is part of a designed space. If it is outside of somewhere there should still be a somewhere that is understood. As I mentioned,d the main path skirts the edge of the land, it doesn’t actually take you to any place except sort of Rise of the Resistance and even then it is possible to walk right past.

Pattern language and hierarchy of space are how you get people to explore and look around. They are tools for communicating without signage that there is something in a space.

It’s odd that you now claim “It’s a feature, not a bug” when you have already acknowledged the bug, that many people describe the land as dead. That’s what I am seeking to explain, why the land feels devoid of activity without its live entertainment when other lands do not. If not these reasons, then what is it about the design that so clearly does not work that so many describe it as a land lacking activity?

So in other words, If the main path took you through the marketplace and Ronto's instead of skirting the edge of everything, and then, say, had an intersecting path at the midpoint that led to the Falcon plaza, would that be better? I agree that it would, but also I do think this is something that 99% of guests aren't going to think about or even unconsciously notice. On my first visit to the land, I entered from the tunnel by Muppets, walked the main path, and as I approached the large buildings of the marketplace, I knew to start exploring them. I entered the marketplace area, explored, then eventually found myself near Docking Bay 7 and the Falcon. From there I continued to branch down the other paths and didn't see the main path again until I was ready to leave. Once leaving the main path, you're "in it", so to speak, and it felt like I was diving deeper and deeper into this world.

The "feature" I was referring to was that SWGE is designed not like a theme park land for tourists. I do acknowledge that it feels lifeless, but I still feel that has much less to do with it's layout and design concepts and more because of the lack of music and entertainment in all the places it's clearly supposed to be there. I have walked down Main Street USA nearly deserted, and the fake windows above me didn't create an illusion of life. It felt lively because of the music.

I see the Falcon being "hidden" as a feature. It's not a marquee or weenie or icon like the floating mountains in Pandora. It's parked at an alleged shipping facility, which is realistic.

 

[britain]

This is probably as good a place as any to post that our friend @WDW Pro at his piratey and princessy column is saying that assessing what it would take to put Galaxy’s Edge into the Mandalorian timeline has begun.

I don’t care for the “true fan” wars. I love The Last Jedi AND Mandalorian. But it would be great to have a place to meet Boba Fett, Ashoka, and Baby Yoda.

IF such a thing would happen (rather than creating “timeless SWL” where Vader and Rey could walk the streets simultaneously) how do you think they’d do it?

MF:SR probably doesn’t need to change at all - though it’s the one attraction that could benefit from an update.

I’ve dreamt of a Vader version of rise of the resistance, but that wouldn’t be in the cards if this were true. And I think being chased by Kylo Ren is still more effective than being chased by… I don’t know… Moff Gideon with the darksaber?

Thoughts?

 

[MisterPenguin]

This is probably as good a place as any to post that our friend @WDW Pro at his piratey and princessy column is saying that assessing what it would take to put Galaxy’s Edge into the Mandalorian timeline has begun.

I don’t care for the “true fan” wars. I love The Last Jedi AND Mandalorian. But it would be great to have a place to meet Boba Fett, Ashoka, and Baby Yoda.

IF such a thing would happen (rather than creating “timeless SWL” where Vader and Rey could walk the streets simultaneously) how do you think they’d do it?

MF:SR probably doesn’t need to change at all - though it’s the one attraction that could benefit from an update.

I’ve dreamt of a Vader version of rise of the resistance, but that wouldn’t be in the cards if this were true. And I think being chased by Kylo Ren is still more effective than being chased by… I don’t know… Moff Gideon with the darksaber?

Thoughts?

You have a good point that at the time of the Mandalorian, there is no big bad except for Gideon and other moffs or First Order rebuilders. Vader is gone. Kylo (Ben) is a baby. And Snoke/re-Palpatine is just a malformed clone in a tube.

GE is 25 years after Mandalorian. Din would be in his 50s-60s. Grogu would still be a 'baby.' There's no problem for them showing up at GE.

 

[britain]

You have a good point that at the time of the Mandalorian, there is no big bad except for Gideon and other moffs or First Order rebuilders. Vader is gone. Kylo (Ben) is a baby. And Snoke/re-Palpatine is just a malformed clone in a tube.

GE is 25 years after Mandalorian. Din would be in his 50s-60s. Grogu would still be a 'baby.' There's no problem for them showing up at GE.

Well, but according to the article, Disney wants RotJ era Luke to be available to walk around in the land now.

 

[Mike S]

You have a good point that at the time of the Mandalorian, there is no big bad except for Gideon and other moffs or First Order rebuilders. Vader is gone. Kylo (Ben) is a baby. And Snoke/re-Palpatine is just a malformed clone in a tube.

GE is 25 years after Mandalorian. Din would be in his 50s-60s. Grogu would still be a 'baby.' There's no problem for them showing up at GE.

The big bad will be Thrawn. It’s obvious that’s what they’re building towards.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The big bad will be Thrawn. It’s obvious that’s what they’re building towards.

Wouldn't Thrawn be the big bad for Asohka?

 

[Supreme Leader]

At this point the only thing I can see Disney doing is taking Galaxy's Edge out of a cannon specific time period. I just don't see them completely redressing Rise when it just opened a year ago and is very popular.

 

[Mike S]

Wouldn't Thrawn be the big bad for Asohka?

They said all the separate Filoni series are going to come together eventually in a big event. Obviously that means Thrawn.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

At this point the only thing I can see Disney doing is taking Galaxy's Edge out of a cannon specific time period. I just don't see them completely redressing Rise when it just opened a year ago and is very popular.

I don't either, but it is funny how quickly Disney has moved on from the sequel trilogy after spending so much time and money to make Galaxy's Edge focus entirely on those stories and characters.

 

[Marc Davis Fan]

If Disney is really willing to change SWGE's place in the timeline, they should situate it in the OT.

All Star Wars fans like the OT (I'm sure there's an exception, but you get the point), and the public remains familiar with the OT. Plus, this would finally give it the nostalgia they were originally hoping to achieve.

It only requires a few minor things: RotR character swap-outs, Falcon antenna swap-out, and we're pretty much good.

And they could mess with the timeline a little bit in terms of merchandise (e.g., selling "baby Yoda" or whatever), and it wouldn't be a problem (as long as they do it tastefully, e.g., without distracting signage).

 

[MisterPenguin]

I don't either, but it is funny how quickly Disney has moved on from the sequel trilogy after spending so much time and money to make Galaxy's Edge focus entirely on those stories and characters.

There's a lot of stuff in The Mandolorian pointing to stuff that will happen in the sequels: Cut-off imperials looking to re-establish ""Order"", cloning of force-sensitive something (Snoke/Palpy), a battered Republic not caring about carrying-ons in the Outer Rim.