Mike S
Well-Known Member
The whole situation stinks worse than the inside of a Taun Taun. Something is definitely up.
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Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread
- Thread starter Dead2009
- Start date
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
Benioff and Weiss being off a Star Wars project is the best news Star Wars, as a franchise, has received in ages.
Everything I've read said Lucasfilm wanted them because of their "world-building experience" as a result of Game of Thrones -- but they didn't do any world building in Game of Thrones. Lucasfilm should have hired George R.R. Martin if that's what they were looking for; roughly 99% of the world building in that series came directly out of his novels. It's not a coincidence that that show went off the rails as they moved beyond his source material. A lot of people disliked the final season, but it really started trending downhill a couple of seasons earlier and just got progressively worse. The writing fell off a cliff when they weren't pulling things directly out of previously written books.
David Benioff is a middling-to-bad writer (D.B. Weiss doesn't really have anything on his resume outside of Game of Thrones) and hiring him made no sense. Before George R.R. Martin made his career, he wrote cinematic masterpieces like Troy and X-Men Origins: Wolverine.
Everything I've read said Lucasfilm wanted them because of their "world-building experience" as a result of Game of Thrones -- but they didn't do any world building in Game of Thrones. Lucasfilm should have hired George R.R. Martin if that's what they were looking for; roughly 99% of the world building in that series came directly out of his novels. It's not a coincidence that that show went off the rails as they moved beyond his source material. A lot of people disliked the final season, but it really started trending downhill a couple of seasons earlier and just got progressively worse. The writing fell off a cliff when they weren't pulling things directly out of previously written books.
David Benioff is a middling-to-bad writer (D.B. Weiss doesn't really have anything on his resume outside of Game of Thrones) and hiring him made no sense. Before George R.R. Martin made his career, he wrote cinematic masterpieces like Troy and X-Men Origins: Wolverine.
Mike S
Well-Known Member
Don’t people not like X-Men Origins?
spacemountaincarlo
Well-Known Member
He was being sarcastic.
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
That was heavily sarcastic. Troy and X-Men Origins are terrible movies.
Epcot_Imagineer
Well-Known Member
Been skimming this thread, just need to vent about my problems with the fandom in general. I'm constantly confused as to why Kathleen Kennedy is getting skewered as the worst person for Star Wars when she has spent almost her entire career producing block-buster hits. She is third only to Fiege and Spielberg at the box office as a producer. She is one of the best producers in Hollywood of all-time, yet people are acting as if she's some incompetent nobody. Yes she has made mistakes, but Spielberg and Fiege have also made mistakes (Crystal Skull, Spider-Man 3) when it comes to producing: who hasn't?
Sorry, that argument in particular frustrates me.
Sorry, that argument in particular frustrates me.
spacemountaincarlo
Well-Known Member
Most movies she's produced that are of quality can be attributed to the director. I'm looking through her filmography and honestly she has many more misses than hits.
Wendy Pleakley
Well-Known Member
A bit of background on Benioff and Weiss and how they may have been in over their heads:
‘Game Of Thrones’ Showrunners David Benioff And D.B. Weiss Confirmed The Worst Suspicions Of The Fanbase
Like hiring Colin Trevorrow, I don't know why anyone thought he could write a good movie after the abysmal Jurassic World, but credit to Lucasfilm to making corrections.
‘Game Of Thrones’ Showrunners David Benioff And D.B. Weiss Confirmed The Worst Suspicions Of The Fanbase
Like hiring Colin Trevorrow, I don't know why anyone thought he could write a good movie after the abysmal Jurassic World, but credit to Lucasfilm to making corrections.
Mike S
Well-Known Member
Jurassic World was a good movie imo. Best of the JP sequels.
Tony Perkis
Well-Known Member
Nobody, myself included, has ever acknowledged that all filmmaking must operate like a well-oiled machine that all have a superior infrastructure to minimize chaos.
This quoted post attempts to validate Kennedy’s process and justify all the shortcomings under her tenure, which I disagree with entirely. Under her management, which frankly doesn’t include that many films, she’s had the following failures:
- The shadow firing of Garett Edwards during the Rogue One reshoots and Tony Gilroy taking over production
- Massive overhaul of the conclusion indicates that she greenlit a film with either an incomplete or incompetent ending, both which are bad
- The hiring Colin Trevorrow based on the commercial success of Jurassic World and the firing based on the critical backlash and financial failure of The Book of Henry
- Indicates that her hiring process is sometimes based on financial past successes, and not always their creativity
- The firing of Phil Lord and Christopher Miller from Solo
- One of the reasons provided is that they were turning the film into a more whimsical comedy as opposed to a straight up action film, which is a baffling reason considering the duo’s entire filmography
- The more recent development with the GOT guys
- Given the recent comments from the two about how they were grossly unqualified to handle to GOT, it’s baffling why Kennedy would entrust a major trilogy to them as their second prominent project
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I think it has been a bit of a comedy of errors, not all of which is Kathleen's fault, some of it is just rotten luck.
The decision surrounding Beneioff and Weiss was 18 (probably more on order of 24+) months ago. They were great adapters of work. It was unbeknownst to pretty much all of us at the time that they were incapable of generating their own work.
A bad decision would have been to continue to forge ahead with them, regardless. Or give them 250 million dollars and a five year contract after the fact (looking at your Netflix).
The decision surrounding Beneioff and Weiss was 18 (probably more on order of 24+) months ago. They were great adapters of work. It was unbeknownst to pretty much all of us at the time that they were incapable of generating their own work.
A bad decision would have been to continue to forge ahead with them, regardless. Or give them 250 million dollars and a five year contract after the fact (looking at your Netflix).
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
But a quick scan of just the imdb page would show you they don't have the experience. As far as great adapters goes, I could see it if they had come out and said we are doing knights of the old republic, and B & W are adapting it to the big screen. I am more apt to believe that the reason they were hired was because of the game of thrones recognition only. If Kennedy had just this as a bump in the road, I'd say ok, it's a fluke. But this is a trend with her. The missteps far out weigh the successes.
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
I could tell they likely weren't capable of generating their own work at least 3 years ago (and was baffled when they were announced as developers of a new Star Wars trilogy) -- seasons 6 and 7 of Game of Thrones were not good. Even 5 was a decline from the first 4; it just wasn't nearly as bad as what would follow. The writing quality of the series declined dramatically the further away they were from the original source material.
With that said, I don't blame everything on Kathleen Kennedy. Solo was a disaster, but based on some of the set reports I think dumping Lord and Miller was the right move (although hiring them in the first place was a mistake).
Disney Analyst
Well-Known Member
Would be interesting to find out if Disney themselves dropped them, and this is just the PR line to make it seem more... digestible?
I think Disney themselves are likely looking at better strategies going forward with Star Wars. I think this movie is a write off. Either many will love it, and I think many will go in ready and willing and wanting to hate it.
I think Mandalorian will be the true test of the direction they want to go.
I think Disney themselves are likely looking at better strategies going forward with Star Wars. I think this movie is a write off. Either many will love it, and I think many will go in ready and willing and wanting to hate it.
I think Mandalorian will be the true test of the direction they want to go.
easyrowrdw
Well-Known Member
25th Hour is a masterpiece so he gets a lifetime pass from me. I thought his other movie work was okay, but not great. I never watched Game of Thrones, but I kept hearing that it was getting better as it went along (before this final season). Regardless, it was hugely successful. It makes sense that companies (Disney, Netflix, HBO again) would be lining up to work with these guys.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
Ya that's what I'm saying. 5 successful seasons as show runners of game of thrones was certainly 'the experience'.
I think the industry was generally surprised they couldn't translate that into being good storytellers when push came to shove and they ran out of material.
I'm sure Kathleen thought they were the next Russo brothers (who coincidentally are good story-tellers and were on Community).
There is a lot of retroactive work going on here to make Kathleen out to be the big baffoon. But almost all of us thought Beneioff and Weiss were a great choice prior to season 6. They aren't anymore and they have been let go (also now a good choice).
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
I mentioned somewhere else (may have been a different website) that I've heard 25th Hour was excellent, so it's entirely possible he's good at writing grounded realistic stories and just bad at writing anything in the fantasy/sci-fi realm. X-Men Origins: Wolverine is a train wreck in every way imaginable, and Troy was a massive disappointment.
Game of Thrones definitely wasn't getting better as it went along. It was becoming a bigger spectacle with larger set pieces, which may be all some people wanted, but the writing quality got progressively worse. The first 3 or 4 seasons are easily the high point of the series from a writing standpoint; it goes downhill quickly after season 5.
It absolutely was hugely successful, but I think at this point it's pretty clear the success was almost entirely due to George R.R. Martin (Benioff and Weiss still had to do a good job adapting the early seasons, so Martin shouldn't get ALL the credit). That's been bothering me for a while, though (and not just with regards to Game of Thrones) -- for some reason a lot of people in the TV/movie world, critics included, seem to ignore the fact that source material exists and give all the credit to the people writing the adaptation as though it was their own original idea. There were whole articles written about awesome decisions Benioff/Weiss made, how they were subverting expectations, etc. that completely ignored the fact that the things being praised were pulled essentially verbatim (sometimes the dialogue was actually verbatim) from the novels. I never understood why they were getting credit for that.
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easyrowrdw
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info. Like I said, I never saw it, so I was just going on secondhand info and awards. And if these guys really aren't very good, then this does sound like good news for Disney.
Mostly I just wanted to go to bat for 25th Hour. It really is great so I definitely recommend checking it out. And as a random stranger on the Internet, you know you can trust my opinion.
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
Yea fans aren't super keen for subverting expectations. If only the powers that be could understand that.