SSE and IASW...travesty's

[nibblesandbits]

What about 20 years from now and we look at PoTC? Will we be saying how stale it is? Who is Captain Jack Sparrow? So maybe even then, they will change the "classic" or will they simply rerelease it on DVD to a whole new audience?

Well, Snow White came out 70 years ago...and Snow White's Scary Adventure is still around. Snow White herself is still pretty popular.

Less prominant in the Disney culture right now is Alice in Wonderland (meaning she isn't on all the merchandise, isn't considered a princess, etc.) and that came out 57 years ago...and she still has an attraction at Disneyland. People still line up to meet her.

Even a movie that came out in the 90s...The Lion King...guess what...it's been 14 years and people still know who the characters of that movie were. They still care about those characters and they still visit Festival of the Lion King at AK.

I can continue...if need be...

None of these things are really all that stale...people still seem to line up for them...so why is it that something like Jack Sparrow being added to a ride now based off the popularity of the movie, cause people to think...oh, it's just a fad. It will get stale.

Oh...I know...b/c it's something that's been done in the last few years! Of course!!! If it was done in the last few years...there's no way it will ever last, at least according to some. No way it will ever stand the test of time. We should be counting down, b/c all that stuff will be gone in 10 years.

Wait...Test Track came out about 10 years ago...so that means with the way some of you talk, it shouldn't be popular anymore. It should be gone within a year or too, right? But I went in Sept...and well, it's still one of the most popular rides in the park. I had to use the single riders line just so I didn't have to wait until late afternoon/early evening to ride. Boy...that ride sure hasn't stood the test of time...

My point is...not everything Disney is doing right now is the crap that some of you constantly point out that it is. Yes...things change. Sometimes for the good (in some people's opinions) and sometimes for the bad (in some people's opinions) just depends on who you are. That doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong...however, it doesn't mean your opinion is right either.

No...all that matters is what Disney does...and if the majority of guests enjoy it. B/c Disney is a corporation and they do care about making money...almost all corporations nowadays care about making money. So, if the majority of the guests like it...it's a hit for Disney and they don't care if a few naysayers don't care for it. Because chances are...they will find something they do enjoy on Disney property. And as I constantly say...Disney doesn't build things that appeal to all. There is going to be someone who doesn't like an attraction (popular or not popular) for one reason or another. What matters is if the majority enjoy it. And with most of the things that Disney does (not all...I said most), I believe the general public enjoys these new attractions.

 

[dxwwf3]

I personally wish IASW would keep the Disney characters out, but I don't think the current plans will ruin the attraction. If Disney changed their minds and decided against putting the new dolls in there, it would put a smile on my face for sure. The money could certainly be used on something more worthwhile, IMO. But again I do think it can be tastefully done and not make a mockery of the attraction.

And I haven't seen SSE yet, but I also think the positives (just about everything) far outweigh the negatives (the descent/new score and narration).

I can easily see why some would complain about SSE and the IASW proposed changes. They are attractions worth getting worked up over if you feel strongly that way. Personally I think SSE probably isn't as good now as it was in 94, but I know it will still be one of the best attractions in the park. The new AA work looks really fantastic as well. IASW will probably work better without having familar characters, but oh well. It seems just about everything Imagineering does right now has to have familiar characters anymore. Luckily there have been some exceptions and hopefully this "character only" fad will pass and more originality will come down the pipeline in the future.

 

[jakeman]

Walt pandered for certain reasons and only because he NEEDED the money, not becuase he wanted to. Walt cashed in his life insurance when he ran out of money to finish Disneyland. He also "pandered" to NBC by giving them half of Disneyland as long as they would show his Disneyland show on TV. NBC got a show that everyone tuned into for mere peanuts since Walt had to produce it plus they got 50% of Disneyland. However, Walt was smart enough to put a clause in the contract that allowed him to buy it back within 7 years with no penalty.

So his "pandering" accomplished 2 important things: it got him the money to do what he WANTED to do correctly as well as gave him a way to getting DL into the TV set of everyone in America.

That is NOT pandering...that is one smart guy who figured out how to do the impossible! But fast forward to today and Disney has some deeeeeep pockets! If they do ANYTHING, it's all in the name of the mighty $$. The only thing they are pandering to is your wallet.

What's the best way to get people to buy your characters from movies 20 years ago? Put them in today's rides! Now, you can rerelease not just the DVD, but also the plush toys, etc.

What about 20 years from now and we look at PoTC? Will we be saying how stale it is? Who is Captain Jack Sparrow? So maybe even then, they will change the "classic" or will they simply rerelease it on DVD to a whole new audience?

Sadly, IASW is morphing into a riverboat ride through a commercial for Disney products. Plain and simple. Although change is inevitable, it doesn't mean its good or that just because you do it, its being done right.

Disney parks were founded on such cornerstones like IASW and shouldn't be changed. How does one even decide when a classic is no longer a classic and needs to be fixed?

Pandering is pandering. Intent doesn't change the fact.

The rest of the arguement is equally flawed, as nibbles pointed out.

Walt Disney was a genius, but not the ominipotent master of entertainment that folks make him out to be. From what I have read it appears very little of his motives were altruistic, but only a means to his own ends.

Additionally what point does an attraction reach classic status?

 

[MaxsDad]

Bugs,

What's the best way to get people to buy your characters from movies 20 years ago? Put them in today's rides!

You are joking right? I can't tell for sure, cause most of your post sounds like you are serious. Maybe the sarcasm is real subtle in the rest of the post and I am missing it, but based on this comment, surely you jest?

Also, I don't think we will be buying DVD's 20 years from now. I have a couple of Blue Rays, and I can see this catching on real fast at today's pace of technology. But really, Blue Rays will be old hat by then for sure.

I wouldn't lose to much sleep over PotC movies fading. This are good films that will stand the test of time much stronger than Swiss Family Robinson, Zoro, or Davey Crockett.

 

[ChrisQ]

Whew. I'm exhausted from reading this whole debate.

I'm OK with them putting some characters in (but please, God--and WDI--PLEASE not Stitch!!!!!!). :brick:

At first, I was opposed to it, but some of you have made some good points. It's not necessarily what I would prefer, but it's also not the end of the world. I've always loved Mary Blair's work, so I hope and pray that they at least honor her legacy.

 

[MaxsDad]

Jake,

Sorry I missed this question.

He was not speaking American!

Seriously, give what he was speaking (Scandinavian of some sort I want to say) and the general appearance of the family, I would put a high probability that they were from a Scandinavian (sp?) country of some sort.

I'm sure there is a small likelihood they are from the US but all outward observations pointed otherwise. Manner of dress (not bad, just that slight difference, like when you can spot the Brits, no offense :wave, language, and general mannerism pointed to the fact they were most likely not from the US.

Maybe he was Hebrew:

"Cast your bread upon the waters, for after many days you will find it again."

Ecclesiastes 11:1

 

[MichWolv]

It seems just about everything Imagineering does right now has to have familiar characters anymore. Luckily there have been some exceptions and hopefully this "character only" fad will pass and more originality will come down the pipeline in the future.

You don't personally deserve this harangue on your own, but several on this thread have made the point that "oringinality" is lacking recently. But many of this millenium's new attractions have exhibited creativity and originality.

Everest, Turtle Talk, SGE (stinks, but original), MILFCC, Soarin' (at DCA), Philharmagic, Nemo Musical (I don't like it as much as most). And there have been revamps/refurbs in the past few years that we've loved, like PoTC and HM.

I agree that there's been some failures and some "less than magic" updates and changes (SSE ending, killing the guides on LwTL, JIYI, the depressing death of WoL, SGE, no more SuperStar Television, Sounds Dangerous). But it's not like we've been getting a 100% diet of lameness that would justify an immediate jump to "OMG they're gonna ruin another one!". Sure, they could mess it up, but I'm still inclined to give Disney the room to implement the changes before I decide they stink.

 

[jakeman]

Maybe he was Hebrew:

"Cast your bread upon the waters, for after many days you will find it again."

Ecclesiastes 11:1

A fool returns to his folly, like a dog to his vomit.

Proverbs 26:11

:hurl:

 

[ChrisFL]

Well, Snow White came out 70 years ago...and Snow White's Scary Adventure is still around. Snow White herself is still pretty popular.

Less prominant in the Disney culture right now is Alice in Wonderland (meaning she isn't on all the merchandise, isn't considered a princess, etc.) and that came out 57 years ago...and she still has an attraction at Disneyland. People still line up to meet her.

Even a movie that came out in the 90s...The Lion King...guess what...it's been 14 years and people still know who the characters of that movie were. They still care about those characters and they still visit Festival of the Lion King at AK.

I can continue...if need be...

None of these things are really all that stale...people still seem to line up for them...so why is it that something like Jack Sparrow being added to a ride now based off the popularity of the movie, cause people to think...oh, it's just a fad. It will get stale.

Oh...I know...b/c it's something that's been done in the last few years! Of course!!! If it was done in the last few years...there's no way it will ever last, at least according to some. No way it will ever stand the test of time. We should be counting down, b/c all that stuff will be gone in 10 years.

Wait...Test Track came out about 10 years ago...so that means with the way some of you talk, it shouldn't be popular anymore. It should be gone within a year or too, right? But I went in Sept...and well, it's still one of the most popular rides in the park. I had to use the single riders line just so I didn't have to wait until late afternoon/early evening to ride. Boy...that ride sure hasn't stood the test of time...

My point is...not everything Disney is doing right now is the crap that some of you constantly point out that it is. Yes...things change. Sometimes for the good (in some people's opinions) and sometimes for the bad (in some people's opinions) just depends on who you are. That doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong...however, it doesn't mean your opinion is right either.

No...all that matters is what Disney does...and if the majority of guests enjoy it. B/c Disney is a corporation and they do care about making money...almost all corporations nowadays care about making money. So, if the majority of the guests like it...it's a hit for Disney and they don't care if a few naysayers don't care for it. Because chances are...they will find something they do enjoy on Disney property. And as I constantly say...Disney doesn't build things that appeal to all. There is going to be someone who doesn't like an attraction (popular or not popular) for one reason or another. What matters is if the majority enjoy it. And with most of the things that Disney does (not all...I said most), I believe the general public enjoys these new attractions.

Correction, it was ABC, not NBC that had the deal with Disneyland when it opened.

Publically held corporations are all about making money to keep the shareholders happy. I wish Disney was privately held.

 

[dxwwf3]

You don't personally deserve this harangue on your own, but several on this thread have made the point that "oringinality" is lacking recently. But many of this millenium's new attractions have exhibited creativity and originality.

Everest, Turtle Talk, SGE (stinks, but original), MILFCC, Soarin' (at DCA), Philharmagic, Nemo Musical (I don't like it as much as most). And there have been revamps/refurbs in the past few years that we've loved, like PoTC and HM.

Yes there can be original attractions using pre-existing characters, but that wasn't what I was talking about and I should have been more clear. I'm talking about originality from a character standpoint. I'm talking about EE's Yeti (to a lesser degree), the characters from Alien Encounter and Timekeeper, Figment, etc. Or even attractions like Soarin' that don't have any characters at all. I really long for experiencing things at the parks that were exclusive to the parks. You can see Stitch in movies and TV shows, but you could only see Nine Eye at the Magic Kingdom. That is what I was referring to. And yes I know the "general public" loves character interaction right now and Disney is simply delivering, but it is my hope that we're getting to the over saturation point.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I really thought this thread would have been finished off by now....but like Wonders of Life, it comes and goes on a seasonal basis.

 

[Kamikaze]

I really thought this thread would have been finished off by now....but like Wonders of Life, it comes and goes on a seasonal basis.

I'm still trying to figure out who the travesty guy is that bought IASW and SSE.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

The same guy who is planning the monorail to the beastly kingdom :lookaroun

 

[InfernalPenguin]

I got exhausted debating the whole character thing in some other thread, so I'll leave that alone... but I just wanted to ask:

How come so many of you hate Stitch? That was such a brilliant movie, it's come to be one of my favorites.

 

[Skippy_]

I didn't say that.

I know you didn't say that, I was trying to prove a point on average people thinking, and just ended up looking stupid. I apologize again.

I pulled an all-niter on an animation deadline and the IASW news took me over the top.

Um, yes it does. The score is a very important key aspect to make you feel the emotion of the message. Just think how unscary Jaws would be without the theme music. That's how important music can be.

Exactly, watch Psycho or Jaws on mute and you suffer no tension and are relieved of all suspense.

As for SSE, more people find it enjoyable because people don't like to think and the dumbed down narration relieves people of any possible thinking. Thats why some people don't like 2001: A Space Odysesy, but if they gave it the new SSE treatment, it would look like the Kubrick 2001: The space odyssey explained flash video that appeals to a wider audience.

Now, did anyone else think of Team America: World Police for the America section? I can just imagine the theme song playing the the background:ROFLOL:

PS: The Jaguar with the umbrella is my favorite part of IASW, so I'm really ticked that they're getting rid of the Rainforest (well, technically we have nothing to complain about because they aren't touching ours).

 

[mousermerf]

I think one of the problems that people are having with this is the refusal to accept two things:

(a) People are, on average, not particularly intelligent.

(b) Disney should not cater to the lowest common denominator.

A refusal to acknowledge (a) eliminates (b) from even being discussed, which is really what the crux of the problem and lack fo forward movement in the discussion seems to stem from.

 

[InfernalPenguin]

Ugh, ok, I've been called back to the frontline:


Why, exactly, is it that not particularly minding a few characters in IASW makes people stupid?

What part of a ride where you look at lots of dolls from different countries is intellectually engaging? It's not Tolstoy: The Ride.


The problem isn't people not being intelligent, or not wanting to think. It's people that assume that they are stupid... or that they don't want to think.


I wouldn't say I'm a filmmaker...yet. More like on the rise. But I've always had a debate with people who worship arthouse cinema. There's a problem with artsy movies or movies that are overly complex and "deep".

The beauty of movies is that they can be intelligent, but if you're not into that sort of thing, you can still enjoy it's entertainment value. Hitchcock comes to mind. There's alot going on in a movie like, say, North by Northwest or Vertigo... but you can still see it as a thriller and come away entertained. You can watch, say, Starship Troopers, to bring up something slightly more recent, and have had your share of fun without necessarily getting the tounge-in-cheek references to modern political attitudes.


I think the same can be said about rides. You can stick a few characters in there, have fun, and not ruin the thing. People are smart. They still know it's about unity.

 

[imagineer boy]

I got exhausted debating the whole character thing in some other thread, so I'll leave that alone... but I just wanted to ask:

How come so many of you hate Stitch? That was such a brilliant movie, it's come to be one of my favorites.

We don't really hate Stitch himself ( I too really enjoyed the movie ), but most people have just become very sick of him because of his constant over-marketing by Disney and his lackluster attraction that replaced a good one.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Ugh, ok, I've been called back to the frontline:


Why, exactly, is it that not particularly minding a few characters in IASW makes people stupid?

What part of a ride where you look at lots of dolls from different countries is intellectually engaging? It's not Tolstoy: The Ride.

People who like cartoon characters in Disney movies =

People who like cartoon characters in Disney parks =

 

[mousermerf]

Ugh, ok, I've been called back to the frontline:


Why, exactly, is it that not particularly minding a few characters in IASW makes people stupid?

What part of a ride where you look at lots of dolls from different countries is intellectually engaging? It's not Tolstoy: The Ride.


The problem isn't people not being intelligent, or not wanting to think. It's people that assume that they are stupid... or that they don't want to think.


I wouldn't say I'm a filmmaker...yet. More like on the rise. But I've always had a debate with people who worship arthouse cinema. There's a problem with artsy movies or movies that are overly complex and "deep".

The beauty of movies is that they can be intelligent, but if you're not into that sort of thing, you can still enjoy it's entertainment value. Hitchcock comes to mind. There's alot going on in a movie like, say, North by Northwest or Vertigo... but you can still see it as a thriller and come away entertained. You can watch, say, Starship Troopers, to bring up something slightly more recent, and have had your share of fun without necessarily getting the tounge-in-cheek references to modern political attitudes.


I think the same can be said about rides. You can stick a few characters in there, have fun, and not ruin the thing. People are smart. They still know it's about unity.

We're back to you refusing to accept (a). WDI obviously accepted (a), but chose to ignore (b), and we ended up with patronizing fluff instead of a decent script. Tell me you honestly feel that script is intelligent.

And seriously, Starship Troopers in comparison to Hitchcock? Might as well thank the Phoenicians for our ABC's and the Romans for the World Wide Web!