SPOILERS: The Mandalorian Season 2 Discussion

[Screamface]

IMO the Sequel Trilogy had no such vision. I don't know why, but I envision the initial pitch meetings going something like:

Kennedy: "We're going to make a bunch of Star Wars movies"
Iger: "What kind of Star Wars movies?"
Kennedy: "Don't know. But they're a bunch of Star Wars movies. And they'll make a bunch of money"
Iger: "I like money."

I find it hard to swallow that when they were doing the initial casting - somebody looked at Daisy Ridley and said "Yep. That's Palpatine's grandbaby - she gets the part."

There were multiple visions.

George Lucas' vision for the sequels. Which they made him think they liked, but threw in the bin as soon as the contracts were done.

The vision JJ and Kasdan had. Which was carefully worked out with people like Iger. What the new trilogy needed to be. Which turned out to align with what the public wanted. Which is why they're so successful in the industry.

Then KK hired a bunch of no bodies to be the story group to continue. However, their vision was a rejection of JJ's vision and also a rejection of Star Wars in general. With no creative vision. Just what modern Star Wars should be, what it should be, informed by their views on politics and social justice issues.

It then turned out that people weren't too keen on a rejection of Star Wars. They were onboard for the trilogy but that was now ruined as the second film undid it.

Then the failure of the trilogy was complete.

They begged JJ to come and restore it, yet his creative vision and story was undone and destroyed. So on a super tight deadline, he jammed in the treatment ideas originally done for the sequels. Even though major plotlines were destroyed. Working things what was left to fit. Then you get a mess of a final film no one was proud of. It was just trying to dress the corpse of the trilogy up with tinsel and fairy lights. As the story was gone, it went to just try and be entertaining above all.

 

[Jedijax719]

There were multiple visions.

George Lucas' vision for the sequels. Which they made him think they liked, but threw in the bin as soon as the contracts were done.

The vision JJ and Kasdan had. Which was carefully worked out with people like Iger. What the new trilogy needed to be. Which turned out to align with what the public wanted. Which is why they're so successful in the industry.

Then KK hired a bunch of no bodies to be the story group to continue. However, their vision was a rejection of JJ's vision and also a rejection of Star Wars in general. With no creative vision. Just what modern Star Wars should be, what it should be, informed by their views on politics and social justice issues.

It then turned out that people weren't too keen on a rejection of Star Wars. They were onboard for the trilogy but that was now ruined as the second film undid it.

Then the failure of the trilogy was complete.

They begged JJ to come and restore it, yet his creative vision and story was undone and destroyed. So on a super tight deadline, he jammed in the treatment ideas originally done for the sequels. Even though major plotlines were destroyed. Working things what was left to fit. Then you get a mess of a final film no one was proud of. It was just trying to dress the corpse of the trilogy up with tinsel and fairy lights. As the story was gone, it went to just try and be entertaining above all.

Are you 100% sure that JJ and KK had a vision prior to the actual episodes 8 and 9? I'm not so sure, because if they did, they would have made sure the story adhered to it much more closely than it did.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

There were multiple visions.

George Lucas' vision for the sequels. Which they made him think they liked, but threw in the bin as soon as the contracts were done.

The vision JJ and Kasdan had. Which was carefully worked out with people like Iger. What the new trilogy needed to be. Which turned out to align with what the public wanted. Which is why they're so successful in the industry.

Then KK hired a bunch of no bodies to be the story group to continue. However, their vision was a rejection of JJ's vision and also a rejection of Star Wars in general. With no creative vision. Just what modern Star Wars should be, what it should be, informed by their views on politics and social justice issues.

It then turned out that people weren't too keen on a rejection of Star Wars. They were onboard for the trilogy but that was now ruined as the second film undid it.

Then the failure of the trilogy was complete.

They begged JJ to come and restore it, yet his creative vision and story was undone and destroyed. So on a super tight deadline, he jammed in the treatment ideas originally done for the sequels. Even though major plotlines were destroyed. Working things what was left to fit. Then you get a mess of a final film no one was proud of. It was just trying to dress the corpse of the trilogy up with tinsel and fairy lights. As the story was gone, it went to just try and be entertaining above all.

Generally agree...

But I think this was the mistake.
Straight up reboot. It looked so cynical. As if kids were still in 1975 and would gobble whatever you gave them due to lack of entertainment. And the old fart adults “couldn’t handle” anything new...
...because they didn’t reject the prequels because they were a cgi, poorly acted mess...right...that wasn’t it. It was only because it didn't repeat the plot of the first one.

Right. That was it

Are you 100% sure that JJ and KK had a vision prior to the actual episodes 8 and 9? I'm not so sure, because if they did, they would have made sure the story adhered to it much more closely than it did.

Yeah...I’ll ride with your posse

 

[_caleb]

There were multiple visions.

George Lucas' vision for the sequels. Which they made him think they liked, but threw in the bin as soon as the contracts were done.

The vision JJ and Kasdan had. Which was carefully worked out with people like Iger. What the new trilogy needed to be. Which turned out to align with what the public wanted. Which is why they're so successful in the industry.

Then KK hired a bunch of no bodies to be the story group to continue. However, their vision was a rejection of JJ's vision and also a rejection of Star Wars in general. With no creative vision. Just what modern Star Wars should be, what it should be, informed by their views on politics and social justice issues.

It then turned out that people weren't too keen on a rejection of Star Wars. They were onboard for the trilogy but that was now ruined as the second film undid it.

Then the failure of the trilogy was complete.

They begged JJ to come and restore it, yet his creative vision and story was undone and destroyed. So on a super tight deadline, he jammed in the treatment ideas originally done for the sequels. Even though major plotlines were destroyed. Working things what was left to fit. Then you get a mess of a final film no one was proud of. It was just trying to dress the corpse of the trilogy up with tinsel and fairy lights. As the story was gone, it went to just try and be entertaining above all.

I get that this is the narrative, but it’s a conspiracy theory. It gives fans a clear villain to blame for everything they don’t like about the ST, but it requires a lot of speculation (with little evidence) about betrayal, deceit, hidden agendas, and incompetence in order to work.

 

[flynnibus]

Are you 100% sure that JJ and KK had a vision prior to the actual episodes 8 and 9? I'm not so sure, because if they did, they would have made sure the story adhered to it much more closely than it did.

Pretty sure that post/story is also science fiction

 

[Screamface]

Are you 100% sure that JJ and KK had a vision prior to the actual episodes 8 and 9? I'm not so sure, because if they did, they would have made sure the story adhered to it much more closely than it did.

Base level, their approach to the sequel trilogy was clearly at odds with those that did Ep 8. Just watching the trilogy you can see there were competing visions.

The final scene in TFA with Luke, was him in Jedi robes. He was meant to be levitating rocks which were removed to fit TLJ. He was a Jedi Master still in that film. Then the next one, he's not and promptly gets out of his robes. There's a major disconnect in visions.

Secondly, those that worked on the films have told us this is the case. Daisy said Rian ignored everything JJ planned for Ep 8. John's disgruntled comments are because his character never went in the direction it was meant to. Mark Hamill's frustration is not just that Luke was approached different, but that it was not the vision for the character he signed up for.

JJ outright said TROS was a loose adaptation of the treatments for Ep 8 and 9.

Multiple people have talked about various things, like Rey's lineage is not what was originally planned.

Whatever the extent of the plan was, TFA was not written or conceived to have the sequel it got. As the editor of TFA said," TLJ consciously undid everything set up in TFA."

 

[Screamface]

I get that this is the narrative, but it’s a conspiracy theory. It gives fans a clear villain to blame for everything they don’t like about the ST, but it requires a lot of speculation (with little evidence) about betrayal, deceit, hidden agendas, and incompetence in order to work.

It's not a conspiracy theory when it's based on what those who worked on the films have said.

The comments made by various people who worked on the films, such as the actors, writers, directors and editors clearly show that TLJ threw a massive spanner in the works of what was planned. The lead actor literally told the press she cried when JJ was announced to come back and threw shade on TLJ.

 

[_caleb]

It's not a conspiracy theory when it's based on what those who worked on the films have said.

The comments made by various people who worked on the films, such as the actors, writers, directors and editors clearly show that TLJ threw a massive spanner in the works of what was planned. The lead actor literally told the press she cried when JJ was announced to come back and threw shade on TLJ.

Promise I'm not being dismissive of your take here. Believe me, I've read all the fan theories and analyzed all the "evidence" (such as the quote about Ridley you mention). It's all speculation.

Why did the actor cry when she learned that it would be JJ Abrams (and not Rian Johnson) directing episode 9? We can guess, but we don't know. And it doesn't matter. Maybe Daisy Ridley hated Rian Johnson. Maybe she absolutely hated TLJ. It's all speculation and reading into every interview, quote, and red carpet comment.

Whatever the reason, it doesn't mean that Kathleen Kennedy is the villain who ruined Star Wars with her agenda. If you want to blame Kennedy for the stuff you didn't like (that other fans absolutely love), you also have to give her "credit" for the the Mandalorian because it also happened on her watch.

All the people who, according to the narrative, "saved" Star Wars from Kennedy's evil plot (Lucas as Filoni's puppet master, or Favreau as Iger's ringer from MCU) could have done so at any point during the Sequel Trilogy. I find it far more likely that all of the strong creative people involved (even under Kennedy's lead) have always had different visions for the franchise, and I'm excited that all the success has put them in a place to explore several of them now.

 

[LSLS]

I think people are too deep into this. The sequel trilogy had nobody steering the ship. KK was in oversight obviously, but she very apparently did not give anyone a creative lead for what the direction should be, and she did not take it herself. She did that for the madalorian. Credit or blame her for as much as you want beyond that, but the blame she deserves without question is having no direction for the trilogy, and the credit as she deserves is picking 2 smart star wars guys to take the madalorian in a cohesive direction. I honestly dont think those two things can even be argued at this point. I will say I personally give a lot less credit for just giving control to 2 guy, and give more blame for not overseeing and building a total story arc in the movies, but everyone can see that bit differently.

 

[flynnibus]

Credit or blame her for as much as you want beyond that, but the blame she deserves without question is having no direction for the trilogy, and the credit as she deserves is picking 2 smart star wars guys to take the madalorian in a cohesive direction

But that's the thing... she didn't pick them and put them there. She just allowed it as the big boss. Jon F pitched the show and Jon F is who paired with Dave. KK didn't have the show and say "here, I want you two to make it happen". Jon F pitched the show... best is give KK credit for pointing him to Dave F... but that's like calling the ocean wet. Dave F was already the Star Wars-opedia... he was already the goto.

So sure, she's the successful boss greenlighting talent - but she's not the creative behind the show. And if we want to grade her on her talent picks for Disney Star Wars... she's had a pretty rocky first half.

I mean.. the woman has a track record of being associated with some of the best projects in history. Her legacy is sealed... but credit her based on their work, not everything under them just because they are the studio chief.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Base level, their approach to the sequel trilogy was clearly at odds with those that did Ep 8. Just watching the trilogy you can see there were competing visions.

The final scene in TFA with Luke, was him in Jedi robes. He was meant to be levitating rocks which were removed to fit TLJ. He was a Jedi Master still in that film. Then the next one, he's not and promptly gets out of his robes. There's a major disconnect in visions.

Secondly, those that worked on the films have told us this is the case. Daisy said Rian ignored everything JJ planned for Ep 8. John's disgruntled comments are because his character never went in the direction it was meant to. Mark Hamill's frustration is not just that Luke was approached different, but that it was not the vision for the character he signed up for.

JJ outright said TROS was a loose adaptation of the treatments for Ep 8 and 9.

Multiple people have talked about various things, like Rey's lineage is not what was originally planned.

Whatever the extent of the plan was, TFA was not written or conceived to have the sequel it got. As the editor of TFA said," TLJ consciously undid everything set up in TFA."

You’re over thinking this...

They were just crappy movies...from
Igers desk all the way down

 

[_caleb]

But that's the thing... she didn't pick them and put them there. She just allowed it as the big boss. Jon F pitched the show and Jon F is who paired with Dave. KK didn't have the show and say "here, I want you two to make it happen". Jon F pitched the show... best is give KK credit for pointing him to Dave F... but that's like calling the ocean wet. Dave F was already the Star Wars-opedia... he was already the goto.

So sure, she's the successful boss greenlighting talent - but she's not the creative behind the show. And if we want to grade her on her talent picks for Disney Star Wars... she's had a pretty rocky first half.

I mean.. the woman has a track record of being associated with some of the best projects in history. Her legacy is sealed... but credit her based on their work, not everything under them just because they are the studio chief.

I agree with this. I don’t think Kennedy has ever tried to take the creative lead on the projects. Her approach has always seemed to be to just let strong producer/directors do their thing with each episode (JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, Gareth Edwards). But she hasn’t been entirely hands-off, either though: just ask Phil Lord, Chris Miller, and Colin Trevorrow.

 

[Screamface]

Promise I'm not being dismissive of your take here. Believe me, I've read all the fan theories and analyzed all the "evidence" (such as the quote about Ridley you mention). It's all speculation.

Why did the actor cry when she learned that it would be JJ Abrams (and not Rian Johnson) directing episode 9? We can guess, but we don't know. And it doesn't matter. Maybe Daisy Ridley hated Rian Johnson. Maybe she absolutely hated TLJ. It's all speculation and reading into every interview, quote, and red carpet comment.

Whatever the reason, it doesn't mean that Kathleen Kennedy is the villain who ruined Star Wars with her agenda. If you want to blame Kennedy for the stuff you didn't like (that other fans absolutely love), you also have to give her "credit" for the the Mandalorian because it also happened on her watch.

All the people who, according to the narrative, "saved" Star Wars from Kennedy's evil plot (Lucas as Filoni's puppet master, or Favreau as Iger's ringer from MCU) could have done so at any point during the Sequel Trilogy. I find it far more likely that all of the strong creative people involved (even under Kennedy's lead) have always had different visions for the franchise, and I'm excited that all the success has put them in a place to explore several of them now.

I think there's enough to make a fairly confident guess on where many end up landing.

With KK, as far as I gather she's simply not a creative. She's great at supporting creatives. Her career ups and downs has depended on the creative. She'll do a good job helping them make their film. How it turns out is on them.

She was hired by George when he expected his sequels would be made, with him consulting. She was not hired to oversee the creative side.

I don't really know what to judge about stories of the story group. Maybe that picture they had of Luke with a big red cross over his face was a "kiss." There however was a clear breakdown in creative vision. TLJ was not the same vision of Star Wars as TFA. We have been told by people who worked on the films it, "consciously undid TFA." It ignored everything that JJ had in mind for Ep 8. It's vision clashed with what many people want and it damaged Star Wars. We are actively seeing a course correction and fans loving it.

That specific film and vision was the problem. That does fall on the people she hired and put in charge. Her job wasn't just supporting creatives, ditching Lucas gave her responsibility. She stuffed up.

She's surely not the only one who has stuffed up. There's been mishandling by a lot of people. Who bears responsibility for a Star Wars themed land without Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader? Something went wrong big time with the creative vision.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Who bears responsibility for a Star Wars themed land without Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader? Something went wrong big time with the creative vision.

Iger, after seeing the B.O. for The Force Awakens. He thought the sequels were going to be as wildly loved as the original trilogy.

And he took blame for Solo's dismal performance for being rushed.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I think there's enough to make a fairly confident guess on where many end up landing.

With KK, as far as I gather she's simply not a creative. She's great at supporting creatives. Her career ups and downs has depended on the creative. She'll do a good job helping them make their film. How it turns out is on them.

She was hired by George when he expected his sequels would be made, with him consulting. She was not hired to oversee the creative side.

I don't really know what to judge about stories of the story group. Maybe that picture they had of Luke with a big red cross over his face was a "kiss." There however was a clear breakdown in creative vision. TLJ was not the same vision of Star Wars as TFA. We have been told by people who worked on the films it, "consciously undid TFA." It ignored everything that JJ had in mind for Ep 8. It's vision clashed with what many people want and it damaged Star Wars. We are actively seeing a course correction and fans loving it.

That specific film and vision was the problem. That does fall on the people she hired and put in charge. Her job wasn't just supporting creatives, ditching Lucas gave her responsibility. She stuffed up.

She's surely not the only one who has stuffed up. There's been mishandling by a lot of people. Who bears responsibility for a Star Wars themed land without Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader? Something went wrong big time with the creative vision.

Exactly. This has all but been confirmed by Lucas’s Charlie rose interview...by igers book...and by the interviews given by Disney’s general council regarding the LFL sale.

That’s how it went.

Now...I make the “Steve’s coffee girl” joke about Kennedy...but that’s overt facetious.

It’s really that she is not a creative...she’s had a wildly successful career as a Hollywood logistics/facilitator and that’s a talent.

But to put her in charge of a story group (it was a disaster) and to pick directors for a franchise That we forget was damaged coming in. Not “lost” damaged...it still was raking billions...but a crossroads that could re-establish it as THE juggernaut motion picture franchise... or further alienate a very loyal, large and high spending fan base (yes...gen X...me)

That “trilogy” was crap...started very safe/boring and devolved into the depths of nowhere. Not good enough at all.

But it’s a testament to the power of the “force” that one streaming show has stopped the freefall.

It’s got a heartbeat still.

Iger, after seeing the B.O. for The Force Awakens. He thought the sequels were going to be as wildly loved as the original trilogy.

And he took blame for Solo's dismal performance for being rushed.

Yep...and he was wrong. Which is why on every Star Wars thread (and many that weren’t )...my stance is that Disney simply didn’t understand it. The whole deal.

Now...I don’t think they tried not to get it...I don’t buy the simple “Swj” angry fan excuse at all...
And to their credit - they seem to get their mistakes and have made steps to get the train back on the tracks...

I’m cautiously optimistic. If slaphead doesn’t screw it up.

 

[_caleb]

I appreciate the discussion about Kathleen Kennedy’s role in Star Wars. I really appreciate this hasn’t become a flame war about the entire franchise! We‘ve drifted a bit from the thread topic, though, this might be better suited for a separate thread? Whatever you all think.

I don't really know what to judge about stories of the story group. Maybe that picture they had of Luke with a big red cross over his face was a "kiss." There however was a clear breakdown in creative vision. TLJ was not the same vision of Star Wars as TFA. We have been told by people who worked on the films it, "consciously undid TFA." It ignored everything that JJ had in mind for Ep 8. It's vision clashed with what many people want and it damaged Star Wars. We are actively seeing a course correction and fans loving it.

But now we’re just talking about what people like. This may reflect on Kennedy’s miscalculation about what fans wanted, but that’s not the same thing as “a breakdown of creative vision.” If the people in charge (Kennedy, Johnson, Kasdan, etc.) decided to take the story in a new direction, that isn’t wrong in the sense that they had every right (literally) to do what they wanted to with the story. The really just comes down to whether or not people (fans, actors, etc,) liked the end result.

Consider LucasFilm’s situation when Disney greenlit the Sequels: how to 1) stir up nostalgia, 2) make it interesting, and 3) appeal to a new generation of fans. Their approach was: 1) mirror the OT plot, 2) continue the story, 3) add diversity, emo villain, more action, cute droid, etc.

I’m sorry you didn’t like the ST. You‘re certainly not alone in that. But still lots of fans did/do like it.

As president of LucasFilm, Kennedy‘s role is similar to Iger’s and Chapek’s- to make business decisions about creative ventures. She chose to hire creative people who were fans and then support their vision for the franchise while also trying to maintain what she thought the brand needed. It seems like she tried some stuff, learned from that, and is now trying other stuff, which many fans like better. But her approach is the same- support creatives who are fans/Star Wars geeks, but make sure they don’t lose some of the stuff she believes the brand needs.

Isn’t this is a much less conspiracy/dramatic way to make sense of what’s happened and what is happening now?

 

[Screamface]

It seems like she tried some stuff, learned from that, and is now trying other stuff, which many fans like better. But her approach is the same- support creatives who are fans/Star Wars geeks, but make sure they don’t lose some of the stuff she believes the brand needs.

Isn’t this is a much less conspiracy/dramatic way to make sense of what’s happened and what is happening now?

There clearly is something still going wrong when it comes to the story group though. In the High Republic, reframing to decline of the Jedi to be a result of Yoda's mismanagement is something that doesn't need to be done. They do seem intent on undermining the original characters and story.

Yoda banning Jedi's from marrying really does have a direct link into the fall of Anakin. As well as undermining Sidious. Why are they messing with this stuff, unless they really do want to reframe the original story? They have their book ends on either side and they're been used to undermine it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

There clearly is something still going wrong when it comes to the story group though. In the High Republic, reframing to decline of the Jedi to be a result of Yoda's mismanagement is something that doesn't need to be done. They do seem intent on undermining the original characters and story.

Yoda banning Jedi's from marrying really does have a direct link into the fall of Anakin. As well as undermining Sidious. Why are they messing with this stuff, unless they really do want to reframe the original story? They have their book ends on either side and they're been used to undermine it.

That’s some deep dive EU type stuff...

Also...the Vatican references are distinct and Disney wants NONE of that.

I don’t think you’re ever gonna get that kind of splaining going down.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

 

[Screamface]

That’s some deep dive EU type stuff...

Also...the Vatican references are distinct and Disney wants NONE of that.

I don’t think you’re ever gonna get that kind of splaining going down.

EDIT: Half read a bad article. Misinterpreted something.