SPOILERS: Indiana Jones 5 (Jun 30, 2023)

[Phroobar]

People who believe a word Doomcock says are idiots who want to be angry. I am so tired of idiots.

Even if there is time travel in the film, they aren’t going to “replace” Indy retroactively with a woman. Disney isn’t going to wipe out one of there most famous properties, one with a large theme park presence and a marketable future. To believe that, even for a second, is to prove yourself such a sucker as to be beneath contempt. Not all criticism of Kennedy is misogynist, but this? This is undeniably misogynist.

Is our educational system this bad at teaching critical thought?

You haven't watched anything Disney has produced lately have you?

 

[Screamface]

The Jedi legacy is broken. Luke became a hero by ignoring the explicit advice of his Jedi mentors, forming numerous profound personal attachments, frequently giving into emotion, and believing in a Father that the Jedi order had profoundly failed. He then spends years learning about a complacent, decadent order that did things like ignoring the enslavement of his grandmother and thousands of others on Tatooine in favor of negotiating trade agreements. Luke’s story absolutely leads to a reconsideration of the old Jedi code and the construction of something new. We got the first part of that, but unfortunately Disney got scared off from doing the second bit.

I seem to forget the part where Luke's instruction was to give into the dark side, kill Vader and join Palpatine.

I do remember the part where he gave up and Palpatine's daughter? grand daughter? Who had no instruction guilted him into killing himself to do the bare minimum to save his sister and some rebels after he was willing to let the entire Galaxy fall to the Sith again.

 

[CaptainMickey]

The Jedi legacy is broken. Luke became a hero by ignoring the explicit advice of his Jedi mentors, forming numerous profound personal attachments, frequently giving into emotion, and believing in a Father that the Jedi order had profoundly failed. He then spends years learning about a complacent, decadent order that did things like ignoring the enslavement of his grandmother and thousands of others on Tatooine in favor of negotiating trade agreements. Luke’s story absolutely leads to a reconsideration of the old Jedi code and the construction of something new. We got the first part of that, but unfortunately Disney got scared off from doing the second bit.

that's what Jake Skywalker would say, according to Mark Hamill.

 

[Phroobar]

Is it opposite day around here?

 

[Casper Gutman]

I seem to forget the part where Luke's instruction was to give into the dark side, kill Vader and join Palpatine.

I do remember the part where he gave up and Palpatine's daughter? grand daughter? Who had no instruction guilted him into killing himself to do the bare minimum to save his sister and some rebels after he was willing to let the entire Galaxy fall to the Sith again.

Do you remember the part where Yoda told Luke explicitly not to rescue his friends and let them die in large part because emotional attachments are bad? Or where the older Jedi told him there was nothing of his Father left, which was incontrovertibly wrong? Or where Luke's final victory over the Empire was a profoundly emotional plea to the emotional attachment he shared with his Father, exactly the sort of thing the Jedi said was wrong?

Empire and Return make it very clear that the Jedi code was busted. Fans are wed to the untroubled depiction of the Jedi in New Hope and ignore that every other piece of SW media has called this version into question.

The PT highlights this even more - here's a hint: if a wide-eyed child asks if the space wizard is there to free his enslaved Mother and the other slaves and the space wizard says no, the writer is not unproblematically endorsing the philosophy governing the space wizard.

 

[erasure fan1]

they aren’t going to “replace” Indy retroactively with a woman. Disney isn’t going to wipe out one of there most famous properties, one with a large theme park presence and a marketable future.

Why do you say that? I'd say Disneys track record supports this theory. Look at Marvel, iron heart, she hulk, kate bishop... The new national treasure series. They were going that way with the new pirates until the whole thing was scrapped.

You mean making Luke an interesting character who developed themes about the failure of the Jedis that Lucas had been pointing towards since Empire? Or having Han killed off, the only way Ford would agree to appear in the film?

This will be the neverending star wars debate for all eternity. Personally I don't think it was all that interesting. Why? Because it really made very Little sense and was not well thought out. You can argue that by Luke taking the more passive approach that was in character. The issue is he would never have abandoned his friends and family in the first place. They sidelined him as not to overshadow Rey. 7, 8 and 9 should have been luke, han and leias story of passing the torch to the new generation.

And the whole Ford wanted Solo to die is nonsense in my opinion. There's almost zero chance he would have said no to a truckload of money to be in all 3 movies. I'm betting they paid him some serious cash to film his scene in 9. As long as he could have gone out the hero, I bet he would have been fine with it.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Why do you say that? I'd say Disneys track record supports this theory. Look at Marvel, iron heart, she hulk, kate bishop... The new national treasure series. They were going that way with the new pirates until the whole thing was scrapped.

The accusation isn't that Phoebe Waller-Bridge will put on the hat and go off for more adventures after Indy retires (or even dies) at the end of the film Ford is 80, he's done here, and that would be just fine (I'd prefer Ravenwood-centered prequels myself). The insane accusation, being made by arch-culture-warriors, is that the film will retroactively erase everything Indy ever did and replace him with Waller-Bridge in Raiders, Temple, etc. Which is a mad accusation.

Yes, with the Avengers actors aging or simply not interested in continuing to play their characters, Marvel is turning to the non-X-Men, Non-Fantastic-Four characters (the plans were made before the Fox acquisition). Several are female. Several, like Shang Chi, aren't. Old Hawkeye is still around, as is Thor and Ant-Man and Vision and Strange and Spidey and etc. Original Hulk is still very active - they just introduced his son and the rumor is that the rights situation is about to change and he'll get a solo picture in the coming years. What should matter is the quality of the character and performance, and at least new Hawkeye and new Black Widow are vast improvements on their predecessors. Anyway, these are all Marvel comic characters, some with very long histories (She-Hulk was Lee's creation from back in 1980) so take the issue up with Marvel, not the MCU.

And as much as fans hate to hear it, Ford utterly loathed playing Han.

 

[erasure fan1]

Anyway, these are all Marvel comic characters, some with very long histories (She-Hulk was Lee's creation from back in 1980) so take the issue up with Marvel, not the MCU.

Yes, I understand that. If the time travel stuff is true, it will end up like star trek. Those original movies still happened but are now and alternate time line. And Phoebe will be the new Jones. And that is a pretty good bet. And all the stuff I mentioned, points to that being something Disney would do.

And as much as fans hate to hear it, Ford utterly loathed playing Han.

He very well might have. But you know what Ford loves? A fat paycheck. So I don't care if he didn't like the roll. I still doubt he wouldn't have done the trilogy if the pay was there.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Yes, I understand that. If the time travel stuff is true, it will end up like star trek. Those original movies still happened but are now and alternate time line. And Phoebe will be the new Jones. And that is a pretty good bet. And all the stuff I mentioned, points to that being something Disney would do.

No, it’s an absurd bet that makes sense only if your view has been completely warped by culture war grievances. It has no relation to the artistic decisions in any of the works you’ve cited. Introducing female leads is not akin to literally rewriting history to eliminate an iconic hero unless your view of reality comes processed through angry you tubers.

General rule: if you’re getting your artistic and political opinions from a guy named Doomcock, you’re doing it wrong.

 

[erasure fan1]

Introducing female leads is not akin to literally rewriting history to eliminate an iconic hero unless your view of reality comes processed through angry you tubers.

General rule: if you’re getting your artistic and political opinions from a guy named Doomcock, you’re doing it wrong.

All I'm saying is that it's a good bet they want to replace Fords Indy with a female. I don't care how they do it. Maybe the time travel rumors are true and old Indy sacrifices himself and passed the mantle to Phoebes character. Maybe not, it doesn't matter. If they didn't want Phoebe to take over the roll they would have stayed in continuity and recast someone to play his son. But unless they are doing a great job of fooling everyone, that's not happening. Not sure why you keep bringing up doomcock. He's just rehashing other peoples rumors. Rumors that no matter the source, aren't all that out of form for Disney. I hope the time travel thing isn't real, it's just kind of lazy. But "dial of destiny"? It does sorta sound like a time machine trope.

 

[Prince-1]

No, it’s an absurd bet that makes sense only if your view has been completely warped by culture war grievances. It has no relation to the artistic decisions in any of the works you’ve cited. Introducing female leads is not akin to literally rewriting history to eliminate an iconic hero unless your view of reality comes processed through angry you tubers.

General rule: if you’re getting your artistic and political opinions from a guy named Doomcock, you’re doing it wrong.

Who is a Doomcock?? Sounds like something said in a Fantastic Four themed adult movie.

 

[GimpYancIent]

The accusation isn't that Phoebe Waller-Bridge will put on the hat and go off for more adventures after Indy retires (or even dies) at the end of the film Ford is 80, he's done here, and that would be just fine (I'd prefer Ravenwood-centered prequels myself). The insane accusation, being made by arch-culture-warriors, is that the film will retroactively erase everything Indy ever did and replace him with Waller-Bridge in Raiders, Temple, etc. Which is a mad accusation.

Yes, with the Avengers actors aging or simply not interested in continuing to play their characters, Marvel is turning to the non-X-Men, Non-Fantastic-Four characters (the plans were made before the Fox acquisition). Several are female. Several, like Shang Chi, aren't. Old Hawkeye is still around, as is Thor and Ant-Man and Vision and Strange and Spidey and etc. Original Hulk is still very active - they just introduced his son and the rumor is that the rights situation is about to change and he'll get a solo picture in the coming years. What should matter is the quality of the character and performance, and at least new Hawkeye and new Black Widow are vast improvements on their predecessors. Anyway, these are all Marvel comic characters, some with very long histories (She-Hulk was Lee's creation from back in 1980) so take the issue up with Marvel, not the MCU.

And as much as fans hate to hear it, Ford utterly loathed playing Han.

I must agree on your last and final point. Per Fords own words he hated portraying Han, something he would overlook for enough money.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Who is a Doomcock?? Sounds like something said in a Fantastic Four themed adult movie.

He’s one of the foremost pop culture culture warriors, the popularizer (and possible originator) of this stupid rumor, and an all-around awful person. His video on this issue is posted on the first page of this thread.

Look, the plot may involve time travel. Phoebe Waller-Bridge may take up the whip at the end. Ford is 80, he’s done as Indy (and moving into the MCU!)

But Indy isn’t getting ERASED from history.

And Phoebe Waller-Bridge is vastly preferable to Shia LeBouf, even if she has the audacity to be a woman. Any continuation of the IP is more likely to explore the period before rather then after Indy, so none of it matters much anyway.

 

[Jedijax719]

Shia was just AWFUL!!!

If they do explore periods of time before the Indy movies (another young Indy series?), would it be odd that they deaged Harrison in this movie only to have a different actor play him later?

 

[Screamface]

Do you remember the part where Yoda told Luke explicitly not to rescue his friends and let them die in large part because emotional attachments are bad? Or where the older Jedi told him there was nothing of his Father left, which was incontrovertibly wrong? Or where Luke's final victory over the Empire was a profoundly emotional plea to the emotional attachment he shared with his Father, exactly the sort of thing the Jedi said was wrong?

I remember when Yoda told Luke he wasn't ready to confront Vader, Luke then almost died. Luke then went and finished his training with Yoda having learnt a valuable lesson.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Shia was just AWFUL!!!

If they do explore periods of time before the Indy movies (another young Indy series?), would it be odd that they deaged Harrison in this movie only to have a different actor play him later?

Abner Ravenwood is just sitting there, waiting. And he looks a lot like Oscar Isaacs to me.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I remember when Yoda told Luke he wasn't ready to confront Vader, Luke then almost died. Luke then went and finished his training with Yoda having learnt a valuable lesson.

You may need to rewatch it because you’re missing most of what happened. For one thing, Luke never “completes his training,” Yoda dies immediately when Luke returns to Degobah. And the “important lesson” he learned by disobeying Yoda was that disobeying Yoda was the correct decision, prioritizing emotional attachments is good - and eventually his continued emotional attachments are what save the galaxy.

 

[TalkingHead]

Predictions on running time? Last Crusade was the longest previous entry at 127 min. I’m in the minority but I thought Mangold’s Ford/Ferrari was tiresome at 153 min. (This has the same screenwriters fwiw.)

 

[Jedijax719]

Who is a Doomcock?? Sounds like something said in a Fantastic Four themed adult movie.

You mean like Mr. Manhattan in Watchmen?

 

[CaptainMickey]

Hollywood already has female Indiana Jones movie/series, It's called Lara Croft - Tomb Raider. I'm a fan.

Disney has plenty of great female characters, why would they possibly consider replacing a massively popular male characters like Indiana Jones, right?

They have a ton of new shows with awesome, incredibly strong female characters, and that's really awesome!

But, Look at all the new strong male hero IP shows they have:
They have a series about Loki.. wait it's mainly about his female version.
They have a Hawkeye series...wait that was mainly about Kate Bishop
They have a new Iron Man...ah nevermind.
Is Thor still a shlub?
Obi-Wan Kenobi show set when he is supposed to be guarding young Luke on Tatooine...but it's about young Princess Leia?
They are doing a New National Treasure with Nicholas Cage, right?

You can't see why fans might be a little nervous about Indy?

We LOVE strong female characters. (Princess Leia, Jen Erso, Marvel, Disney Princesses!) (Not Disney, but awesome, Sara Connor - Terminator 2, Ripley - Aliens, etc.) No one wants these characters turned into men. Disney seems too lazy to come up with any original character lately. It's easier to just hi-jack an established character and it will have a built in audience already. I'm guessing most Indy fans won't be too thrilled if Helena takes his hat and his name, even if they don't erase his existence. Just a guess.