SPOILER Agatha All Along, D+, premier 9/18/24

[flynnibus]

Outside of the kiss at the end what was highly sexualized? I'm sorry but I don't see it, and I'm a straight guy. There was flirting between Agatha and Rio, but nothing I would call highly sexualized.

Rio’s character is setup like a vixen… even during the early episodes when under the spell. There is sexual tension between them throughout… not just two old acquaintances with an ax to grind. They weren’t just a team or something… it’s setup to be a conflict of emotions and passions - not just torment/conflict.

Agatha took the Ballet that Nicholas created in innocence and turned it evil. That is what she can't face, the look on her sweet young child's face after all of the evil she perpetrated for hundreds of years using his song. Its called guilt.

Yes - but that’s not what i was questioning. How did agatha’s choice in the backyard help her resolve that guilt or help her with closure?

If anything it only seems to be a sidestep to get death to stop pursuing her… ending that fleeing because she knows she can not ever fully escape.

 

[Disney Irish]

Rio’s character is setup like a vixen… even during the early episodes when under the spell. There is sexual tension between them throughout… not just two old acquaintances with an ax to grind. They weren’t just a team or something… it’s setup to be a conflict of emotions and passions - not just torment/conflict.

Yes, I mention this in a follow-up post.

But even more than that it was setup as though they were bitter former lovers, which was confirmed in Ep 9.

Yes - but that’s not what i was questioning. How did agatha’s choice in the backyard help her resolve that guilt or help her with closure?

If anything it only seems to be a sidestep to get death to stop pursuing her… ending that fleeing because she knows she can not ever fully escape.

It helped her resolve her guilt because she was able to save Billy in a way that she couldn't do for Nicholas her own son.

But its not resolved enough where she could face Nicholas as she still hadn't resolved the pain she caused so many witches using his song. So she still couldn't face him.

Also why would it side step death pursuing her, as they had an agreement that if she had turned over Billy then Rio would no longer pursue her and not even be there to collect her when she dies. So in either scenario Rio is done coming after Agatha, that was a conclusion of their relationship.

 

[BrianLo]

Yes - but that’s not what i was questioning. How did agatha’s choice in the backyard help her resolve that guilt or help her with closure?

If anything it only seems to be a sidestep to get death to stop pursuing her… ending that fleeing because she knows she can not ever fully escape.

The choice saves Billy. Who is clearly a son surrogate. She already was otherwise free of death per their agreement.

 

[flynnibus]

Or your comments haven't been clear enough when you mention "relationships" that you're specifically talking about Agatha and Rio versus the conversation that started this which was about praising Joe Locke's performance as Billy.

The post that i replied too - https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/spoiler-agatha-all-along-d-premier-9-18-24.984746/post-11085175

Joe locke’s performance was not part of that post, nor had it been discussed in the thread for days or pages before it. I wasn’t speaking to other discussions that may have preceded… sorry there is a limit to continuity when someone just makes declarative statements like the one i replied to.

Now you're the one speculating that there are other motivations, which isn't even part of this show as the writers didn't want to cover any other motivations.

No I’m simply pointing out there is more than one possibility and that it’s not addressed… hence why I called your claim speculative. We are lead to believe…. But it’s also left vague what their situation was when nicky was born.

 

[Disney Irish]

No I’m simply pointing out there is more than one possibility and that it’s not addressed… hence why I called your claim speculative. We are lead to believe…. But it’s also left vague what their situation was when nicky was born.

We are lead to believe that because that is what the writers laid out and confirmed by the show's creator, that isn't speculative that is accepting the story as currently told, which is what I'm doing.

To think there is other motivations besides them being former lovers is the speculation as there is no indication of that being the case, which is what you're doing.

 

[flynnibus]

Also why would it side step death pursuing her,

The whole ghost thing… verse simply accepting death as an end. The ghost route did not seem to be a surprise to her.. but instead a path chosen to get to continue with billy while getting death off their back.

The whole thing felt like ‘escaping being cornered’ - not closure around nicky.

So to me it was more a way to escape a no win situation…. Ok yes as you say by sacrificing her mortal form to save billy she buys herself some anti-selfish points…

But she also knew billy had eluded death before… heck she just coached him through directing his brother’s state into another body. Comic powers here can go a million directions

 

[LittleBuford]

The post that i replied too - https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/spoiler-agatha-all-along-d-premier-9-18-24.984746/post-11085175

Joe locke’s performance was not part of that post, nor had it been discussed in the thread for days or pages before it.

Actually, the comment (also written by me) two posts above the one you cite is about Joe Locke. You are right, however, that my initial post on the topic of queer representation wasn't limited to his character. But neither was it focused on the Agatha/Rio dynamic, which is what you've tried to make the discussion about, despite your claim that you are merely responding to what I wrote.

 

[flynnibus]

We are lead to believe that because that is what the writers laid out and confirmed by the show's creator,

How about just providing that cite instead of ‘trust me bro’?

Would be much easier and more convincing

 

[Disney Irish]

The whole ghost thing… verse simply accepting death as an end. The ghost route did not seem to be a surprise to her.. but instead a path chosen to get to continue with billy while getting death off their back.

The whole thing felt like ‘escaping being cornered’ - not closure around nicky.

So to me it was more a way to escape a no win situation…. Ok yes as you say by sacrificing her mortal form to save billy she buys herself some anti-selfish points…

But she also knew billy had eluded death before… heck she just coached him through directing his brother’s state into another body. Comic powers here can go a million directions

The ghost route didn't surprise her because just several episodes before she saw her mother in ghost form.

She wasn't in a no win situation though, if she just handed over Billy to Rio she could have gone on doing what she had done for hundreds of years likely for another hundred years or more.

I really think there are plot points you didn't catch in this show that are important to this conversation.

 

[flynnibus]

You are right, however, that my initial post on the topic of queer representation wasn't limited to his character. But neither was it focused on the Agatha/Rio dynamic, which is what you've tried to make the discussion about,

Yeah… How dare i elaborate on MY THOUGHTS behind my words? Am i supposed to be explaining yours??

You said ‘queer representation’… of which there was more than one in the show. Sorry discussion of the show encompassed more than Joe.

And a two line “joe was great” post really doesn’t pin those two statements with exclusivity.

 

[Disney Irish]

How about just providing that cite instead of ‘trust me bro’?

Would be much easier and more convincing

"DEADLINE: Going off that, how did you navigate Agatha’s queerness and telling that story?

SCHAEFFER: I’m so happy to say that it was such a natural process. There was no agenda. It landing on this character of Rio Vidal, who we created, we wanted to bring Death as a character into the show, but the creation of Rio was happening before we came up with the idea of Death. Prior to that, in our conversations about who this pursuant antagonist character would be, we liked the idea of the person being someone that Agatha had had a romantic relationship with. To use an appropriate term, in the room, it was very fluid. Man, woman, super powered, not, witch…it circled and it iterated until it really started to feel right that this dark, mysterious, powerful force that is Rio/Death came to the fore. Mary Livanos was instrumental in the characterization of Rio. Giovanna Sarquis, one of our writers, she came in with the idea of of her being Latinx, which just added this lovely dimension. So we did not start, like, at point A, Agatha is queer. That’s just where it went for us.

DEADLINE: Jen’s line about it making total sense that Agatha’s ex would be death made me chuckle. It does make total sense.

SCHAEFFER: That was legitimately from the room. It’s so fun when lines are essentially us talking, and that was 100% us talking and being like, ‘There’s nobody else.’ We couldn’t think of anybody else. We threw out names of other comic people and and no one felt like a big enough deal and sexy enough, because we also were so psyched on the idea that Agatha would be the one in the power position. So the idea that death is besotted, and Agatha is the one saying, ‘No,’ we just couldn’t get over.

It’s so fun and sexy and great, but also, it’s quite tragic, because the reason that Agatha is so isolated is the nature of her power. It means she has to kill all the witches around her. That’s very sad. It’s really, really tragic. She cannot fulfill her natural instinct to be tribal because of this power that she has. So what’s she gonna do? She’s gonna get with death, the only lady who’s gonna be excited by her career."

‘Agatha All Along’ Showrunner Jac Schaeffer On Sticking The Landing With Final Episodes & What’s To Come For Billy

Agatha All Along showrunner Jac Schaeffer spoke with Deadline about the final two episodes of the Marvel series

deadline.com

Anything else is just you speculating, this shows that all of Agatha and Rio's interactions is because they are former lovers and was the intention from the writers.

 

[flynnibus]

I really think there are plot points you didn't catch in this show that are important to this conversation.

Well that’s why i am engaging in a discussion… asking questions and saying what i thought or took away… not trying to be an authority on the subject and shutdown other takes. Discussion….

I don’t buy into the mother reference alone… that was something that seemed to even surprise her at the time. Even she said she was still learning what she could do…

 

[LittleBuford]

And a two line “joe was great” post really doesn’t pin those two statements with exclusivity.

I didn't say it was exclusively about Joe; my praise was for queer representation in the show more generally. I don't know what I'm failing to get across, but I can't state my position more clearly than I already have, and it seems you're intent on picking a fight, so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don’t buy into the mother reference alone… that was something that seemed to even surprise her at the time. Even she said she was still learning what she could do…

Just as in real life, characters (with good writing) are not just one dimensional.

 

[flynnibus]

Anything else is just you speculating, this shows that all of Agatha and Rio's interactions is because they are former lovers and was the intention from the writers.

Oh jesus man… i never said they weren’t former lovers. Your barking up the wrong tree.

Relationships are more complex that ‘involved’ or not… as well as decisions they were making.

Were they a thing when nicky was born? If not, what wax that situation? Who felt in the right or wrong? Why were ghey not together if ghey weren’t not? What happened before that, that agatha knew she wouldn’t see rio again until she was coming as death?

There is a lot more at stake here than “former lovers”

 

[Disney Irish]

Oh jesus man… i never said they weren’t former lovers. Your barking up the wrong tree.

Relationships are more complex that ‘involved’ or not… as well as decisions they were making.

Were they a thing when nicky was born? If not, what wax that situation? Who felt in the right or wrong? Why were ghey not together if ghey weren’t not? What happened before that, that agatha knew she wouldn’t see rio again until she was coming as death?

There is a lot more at stake here than “former lovers”

Is there? Again you're speculating and trying to read more into the situation than what is laid out. The writers told a story, yes there could be more they tell later on to enhance that story, but that they were former lovers and that was their motivations as we know it now. Just take it as they presented it.

 

[flynnibus]

I didn't say it was exclusively about Joe; my praise was for queer representation in the show more generally. I don't know what I'm failing to get across, but I can't state my position more clearly than I already have, and it seems you're intent on picking a fight, so I'll leave you to it.

I get your clarification (afterwards) - but do me the same respect and accept my explanation of my posts when challenged verse insisting I have some ill intent.

You acknowledge your statement was about the show more generally… and so was my response… which i elaborated on what i meant when questioned. That’s how explaining one’s self works..

 

[LittleBuford]

I get your clarification (afterwards) - but do me the same respect and accept my explanation of my posts when challenged verse insisting I have some ill intent.

You acknowledge your statement was about the show more generally… and so was my response… which i elaborated on what i meant when questioned. That’s how explaining one’s self works..

You may not have ill intent, but you're unnecessarily snarky and confrontational, and you've also failed to acknowledge anything I've written in direct response to your criticism (e.g., when I showed that Billy's gayness is narratively consequential).

 

[flynnibus]

You may not have ill intent, but you're unnecessarily snarky and confrontational, and you've also failed to acknowledge anything I've written in direct response to your criticism (e.g., when I showed that Billy's gayness is narratively consequential).

I did in fact (that its from the source material) - just not maybe in a reply directly to you

Eta: if you mean your point “the Witches' Road was super gay in its aesthetics and conception”

I don’t agree with it… but it’s your opinion. I wasn’t going to be able to say anything that wouldn’t degrade into gay perspectives… so I simply didn’t. Gasp… not being argumentative

 

[LittleBuford]

I did in fact (that its from the source material) - just not maybe in a reply directly to you

I know nothing about the source material. I was speaking solely about the show itself, and specifically about Billy's conception of the Witches' Road.