SPOILER Agatha All Along, D+, premier 9/18/24

[flynnibus]

I have no idea what is in the original source I Don’t follow the comics… nor does it matter what is in the comics… as this is the show runners interpretation

I was referring to Disney as a company changing direction to their original plans due to a certain sect lof YouTubers… as some are claiming happen to Inside Out 2

You keep referring to “original plans” or “modify” - yet you acknowledge you don’t know the story’s development at all…

Just say it as it is… they were willing to use and promote gay characters.

 

[flynnibus]

Billy (teen) is gay in the comics, it was important part of his character and it would actually betray who the character was for so many if it wasn't included.

So you call it forced, I call it honoring the actual source material to include his sexuality.

And wanda/rio? That’s what i was more referring to.

 

[Disney Irish]

And wanda/rio? That’s what i was more referring to.

I think you mean Agatha, as Wanda wasn't in this show.

Also @LittleBuford has been talking about Billy (teen) played by Joe Locke as being the representation that is most important in this show. And that is 100% accurate to the comics and is important to the characters story so was important that he was played authentically by Locke who is also gay.

The addition of Agatha and Death's relationship adds to the dynamic between them, so while not directly tied to the comics is important to motivations by both characters in my opinion. As without the relationship Agatha couldn't get more time with her son Nicholas, basically setting up the whole show. And while I've heard very few complaints about the show, having Agatha and Death having been former lovers was never even mentioned. In fact its only you that I've even seen bring it up as being an "issue".

 

[LittleBuford]

And wanda/rio? That’s what i was more referring to.

Would you be asking this question if Rio were male and shown to have a romantic connection with Agatha?

 

[DKampy]

You keep referring to “original plans” or “modify” - yet you acknowledge you don’t know the story’s development at all…

Just say it as it is… they were willing to use and promote gay character

Correct I don”t know the original comics it came from…. I judge the show on it’s own terms and I enjoyed it

I don’t understand your quibble… it was a story that featured a gay character played by a gay actor… it did not feel forced at all IMO

 

[Ghost93]

Really great series! Joe Locke was the big surprise for me; he’s a fantastic actor.

I feel this entire series was kind of a backdoor pilot for the Wiccan character. Which I don't mind, as I'm a huge fan of Wiccan and he's the main reason I'm excited about Young Avengers.

I like that they gave a him a bit of a brooding edge. Makes him more distinct from all of the adorkable enthusiasm of characters like Kamala Khan and Kate Bishop.

 

[MisterPenguin]

If Billy were straight, The Road would be a football field in ancient Rome.

 

[LittleBuford]

I feel this entire series was kind of a backdoor pilot for the Wiccan character. Which I don't mind, as I'm a huge fan of Wiccan and he's the main reason I'm excited about Young Avengers.

I like that they gave a him a bit of a brooding edge. Makes him more distinct from all of the adorkable enthusiasm of characters like Kamala Khan and Kate Bishop.

I have no idea who Wiccan is! (I know next to nothing about the world of Marvel.) Is that who his character becomes?

 

[Prince-1]

I have no idea who Wiccan is! (I know next to nothing about the world of Marvel.) Is that who his character becomes?

Yes.

 

[flynnibus]

The addition of Agatha and Death's relationship adds to the dynamic between them, so while not directly tied to the comics is important to motivations by both characters in my opinion

And in the conversation about disney “staying true” i took note that it wasn’t from the source. So in that tangent… the added diversity was notable… and in my opinion… forced.

. As without the relationship Agatha couldn't get more time with her son Nicholas, basically setting up the whole show.

That’s speculation on a lot… that was largely left open in the show. As previously mentioned… i wish that dynamic was better addressed in the final episode.

In fact its only you that I've even seen bring it up as being an "issue".

Not ‘in fact’ because i never said it was an issue. It was a criticism of the story in response to buford pontificated over the subject:

“This is proof (as if it were needed) that good storytelling and diversity are in no way mutually exclusive.”

I thought the diversity elements were forced in some instances (rio/agatha) and gratuitous in the case of the teen. But you pointed out the newer comics have this character being gay and that being significant… so i will acknowledge that about billy.

 

[MisterPenguin]

How the ‘Agatha All Along’ Costumes Became the Ultimate Easter Eggs

'Agatha All Along:' using costume design as the ultimate Easter Egg for the show's plot-twists

variety.com

How the ‘Agatha All Along’ Practical Sets Captured the ‘Golden Age of Fantasy and Horror’

The world of 'Agatha All Along' is created by practical set pieces.

variety.com

‘Agatha All Along’ Episode 8 Hits 4.6 Million Views in One Day, Up 10% From Episode 7

The penultimate episode of 'Agatha All Along' reached 4.6 million views in its first day on Disney+, while the finale hit 3.9 million.

variety.com

‘Agatha All Along’ Creator Explains Shocking Finale Twists, Agatha and Rio’s Backstory, Nicholas Scratch’s Father and Why There’s No Post-Credits Scene

"Agatha All Along" creator Jac Schaeffer explains the backstory for Agatha and Rio’s relationship, why we never learn who fathered Nicky, and the “WandaVision” post-credits tag that never got used.

variety.com

 

[flynnibus]

Would you be asking this question if Rio were male and shown to have a romantic connection with Agatha?

If someone were praising it for being specifically that while i thought that element didn’t deserve that praise… yes.

The whole relationship was core to the intrigue in the plot progression and receal… including the significance of a child… yet… they instead focused on making the characters highly sexualized and focused their tension between them on a romantic involvement… while the big reveal abandons all that and refocuses all of agatha’s angst on her actions with nicky. Making rio just kind of a lever in the story rather than the actual pain point.

felt like a big build up and leveraging that just becomes an enabler in the end.

Like i said… loved the final episodes all the way until the very end… where I didn’t like agatha’s choice.

I still don’t get how this path leads to her not facing nicky? Or being at peace with her prior grief…

 

[LittleBuford]

If someone were praising it for being specifically that while i thought that element didn’t deserve that praise… yes.

I’ve been pretty clear about what I was praising. Had I written something like, “I’m so glad they’re telling queer stories”, you would have every right to call me out. But that’s not what I’ve been saying, as I’ve pointed out multiple times now.

The whole relationship was core to the intrigue in the plot progression and receal… including the significance of a child… yet… they instead focused on making the characters highly sexualized and focused their tension between them on a romantic involvement…

I would not call them highly sexualised. There was romantic and sexual tension there, yes, but it was measured and proved relevant to the plot, as explained by @Disney Irish.

 

[Disney Irish]

I honestly think there has been two different conversations going on, the one you appear to want to have and the one that everyone else is having.

And in the conversation about disney “staying true” i took note that it wasn’t from the source. So in that tangent… the added diversity was notable… and in my opinion… forced.

I don't see it as being forced, as it felt natural as it took the term "flirting with death" and making it real almost as if their relationship is the origin of the term.

That’s speculation on a lot… that was largely left open in the show. As previously mentioned… i wish that dynamic was better addressed in the final episode.

Its not speculation though. As why would Death give Nicholas more time to live, as he was due to die in childbirth, if not because she has feelings for his mother Agatha. As this is what lead to Nicholas (and her) creating the song that turned into the Ballet of the Witches Road, and that lead Billy tracking down Agatha.

This was made clear in Ep9. And will likely be explored more in future series, as they had it all mapped out but didn't have time in this show to focus on it, links with the show's creator below.

Not ‘in fact’ because i never said it was an issue. It was a criticism of the story in response to buford pontificated over the subject:

“This is proof (as if it were needed) that good storytelling and diversity are in no way mutually exclusive.”

I thought the diversity elements were forced in some instances (rio/agatha) and gratuitous in the case of the teen. But you pointed out the newer comics have this character being gay and that being significant… so i will acknowledge that about billy.

Calling it forced though makes it appear as though you felt it was an issue, issue enough anyways to call it out. As the story benefits from the "relationships", Billy's as that is the basis of the characters (and has been since the origins of this version of the character for almost 20 years) and Agatha/Rio's as I mentioned is the whole setup of the show.

More is detailed in these pieces with the show's creator Jac Schaeffer -

‘Agatha All Along’ Showrunner Jac Schaeffer On Sticking The Landing With Final Episodes & What’s To Come For Billy

Agatha All Along showrunner Jac Schaeffer spoke with Deadline about the final two episodes of the Marvel series

deadline.com

‘Agatha All Along’ Creator Explains Shocking Finale Twists, Agatha and Rio’s Backstory, Nicholas Scratch’s Father and Why There’s No Post-Credits Scene

"Agatha All Along" creator Jac Schaeffer explains the backstory for Agatha and Rio’s relationship, why we never learn who fathered Nicky, and the “WandaVision” post-credits tag that never got used.

variety.com

 

[LittleBuford]

It was a criticism of the story in response to buford pontificated over the subject:

“This is proof (as if it were needed) that good storytelling and diversity are in no way mutually exclusive.”

It a bit rich of you to accuse me of pontificating. It’s certainly something I’m capable of, but you’re the last poster who should be casting aspersions in that regard.

I stand by my point, preachy or not. Those of us who’ve been posting in this subforum for long enough know exactly what narrative I was pushing back against.

 

[Disney Irish]

If someone were praising it for being specifically that while i thought that element didn’t deserve that praise… yes.

The whole relationship was core to the intrigue in the plot progression and receal… including the significance of a child… yet… they instead focused on making the characters highly sexualized and focused their tension between them on a romantic involvement… while the big reveal abandons all that and refocuses all of agatha’s angst on her actions with nicky. Making rio just kind of a lever in the story rather than the actual pain point.

felt like a big build up and leveraging that just becomes an enabler in the end.

Outside of the kiss at the end what was highly sexualized? I'm sorry but I don't see it, and I'm a straight guy. There was flirting between Agatha and Rio, but nothing I would call highly sexualized.

Like i said… loved the final episodes all the way until the very end… where I didn’t like agatha’s choice.

I still don’t get how this path leads to her not facing nicky? Or being at peace with her prior grief…

Agatha took the Ballet that Nicholas created in innocence and turned it evil. That is what she can't face, the look on her sweet young child's face after all of the evil she perpetrated for hundreds of years using his song. Its called guilt.

 

[LittleBuford]

Outside of the kiss at the end what was highly sexualized?

That wasn’t highly sexualised either. Ariel and Eric kiss no less passionately in The Little Mermaid!

 

[flynnibus]

I honestly think there has been two different conversations going on, the one you appear to want to have and the one that everyone else is having.

Or people are not reading what was actually said. I made a comment and have been defending that opinion. If someone wants to argue something else… well that’s on them.

Its not speculation though. As why would Death give Nicholas more time to live, as he was due to die in childbirth, if not because she has feelings for his mother Agatha.

We don’t know … maybe there are other debts? These two obviously do not live the same kind of lives we know. It’s left unaddressed… we are just lead to assume it’s conflict of duty vs lover. But we also don’t know what happened prior to that moment… and all ghe tales were were told by others didn’t even know Rio was death or that the whole road concept was a scam. So what do they really know or not?

Calling it forced though makes it appear as though you felt it was an issue, issue enough anyways to call it out.

It’s called a criticism- note I didn’t lead this discussion. I gave a different opinion in a response to a point raised by bufford.

 

[Disney Irish]

That wasn’t highly sexualised either. Ariel and Eric kiss no less passionately in The Little Mermaid!

Agreed, but that could be seen by some as sexualizing their relationship, so that is why I mentioned it. But none of it was, even the interactions between Billy and his boyfriend wasn't.

 

[Disney Irish]

Or people are not reading what was actually said. I made a comment and have been defending that opinion. If someone wants to argue something else… well that’s on them.

Or your comments haven't been clear enough when you mention "relationships" that you're specifically talking about Agatha and Rio versus the conversation that started this which was about praising Joe Locke's performance as Billy.

We don’t know … maybe there are other debts? These two obviously do not live the same kind of lives we know. It’s left unaddressed… we are just lead to assume it’s conflict of duty vs lover. But we also don’t know what happened prior to that moment… and all ghe tales were were told by others didn’t even know Rio was death or that the whole road concept was a scam. So what do they really know or not?

Now you're the one speculating that there are other motivations, which isn't even part of this show as the writers didn't want to cover any other motivations.

Ep9 clearly answered the question that had been underpinning the show since the beginning, Agatha and Rio were former lovers. Agatha was literally flirting with death. And that is the whole motivations for all events by both characters. To say it could be because of something else is trying to not accept what was laid out by the writers.