Splash Mountain re-theme announced

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_caleb

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the points made by @Sue_Vongello and @Donaldfan1934. As a major company, Disney exists to make money and is accountable to its Board and shareholders. I don't think anyone here has suggested that the changes are ONLY altruistic, but I'm not sure it's as simple as it being ONLY for financial gain.

Any decision like retheming Splash Mountain was likely debated behind the scenes. It's not as simple as "Will this or won't this make us more money?" Every option was probably pitched with pros/cons, and with projections of how each would ultimately effect Disney's bottom line. I imagine there were short-term arguments ("You'll tick off all the fans who love the Brer characters!" "You'll look like you're pandering to the woke Twitter mob!" but also "The BLM crowd is going to love this!" and "Princess and the Frog polls better with Gen Z!") and long-term arguments ("The mega-fans will come back either way!" but also "We want to show that Disney's on the right side of history on this one!")

My point is that every possible decision can be pitched as being good for the company. The thing is, the Execs and Board members want to look good. It defiantly doesn't seem to be as clear-cut as "Change Splash to Princess and the Frog and we will make more money!" These changes are expensive and arguably unnecessary if it's only about near-term gains. But long term, Disney is heading (or at least appear to be heading) in a direction toward inclusion and diversity.

Obviously, they think these things will position them best for success in the future.
 

Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
I have some time to finally address this. This will be an essay.

I'll start off by saying that as an African American, I have my own issues with Princess and the Frog. I hate that our first and most likely only black Disney princess spends the majority of the film as an amphibian. I really wish they had used another story to base a black princess off of, or simply come up with an original plotline, but it is what it is. In addition, I don't appreciate the lack of a black prince; we have a black princess, but no black prince. Instead, Disney created a racially ambiguous character with a European accent, from a fictional country that is the result of two countries combined, Maldives and Macedonia, the former being a South Asian country and the latter being a European one. They could have at least thrown in an African country in there or just made him African American. Naveen could have been a wealthy African American man with some sort of business empire who, like Tiana, also came from struggles. Those are my biggest issues with PatF.

Going back to Tiana being a frog, it's important to remember that for the question above. PatF may take place during the Jim Crow era, but that actual story pretty much has nothing to do with that, as the majority of the plot senters around animals on a bayou, including the main character. So if the story is a fantasy that takes place on a bayou with talking animals, a Jim Crow narrative just wouldn't make sense. With that being said, there are hints in the film, albeit subtle, that the situations in the film are obviously due to racial inequality (i.e. Tiana and her family living in a poorer, black neighborhood, her father having to work multiple shifts to support the family, Tiana and her mother working for a wealthy white family, Tiana being unable to afford her restaurant and having to work two jobs for years to save money to put a down payment on the building for her restaurant, the fact that there are no black people at Charlotte's ball, Tiana being outbid by someone who is able to pay the entire amount for the building and the bankers making a remark about her "background," insinuating that her business wouldn't have taken off anyway, etc.). PatF is a fantasy, animated, Disney film with talking animals; I wouldn't expect to see lynchings and the "N" word in the film, but I am pleased with the details that were put in to indicate the obvious inequality. Also, Tiana is NOT content with her position in life and is trying her best to change her and her mother's lives.

Song of the South... I don't find this film to be extremely racist, say like Birth of a Nation. However, it has issues, just like PatF, issues that have been brought up multiple times since the film's release. SotS does have some fantasy elements in the film (the re-tellings of the Brer characters), but the main plot is realistic with live, human characters. Seeing that it's a Disney film, like PatF, I wouldn't expect to have seen disturbing images, such as the murders of ex slaves in the film. However, I'm not pleased with the singing, tap dancing, smiling-all-the-time black folks in the film either. That's not to say that there weren't "happy" 19th century black people in America. But the representation of that in SotS is overdone and too much for me. Unlike Tiana, Remus and the other slaves are portrayed as being quite content with their lives. Throw in the typical Magical Negro plot point present in the film and I'm even more displeased. To be fair, the film is based on the Uncle Remus tales, an appropriation of the original African folklore stories by Joel Chandler Harris. He created the character of Uncle Remus and made him a plantation owner sympathizer and an Uncle Tom. I had to read some of the tales for an American literature graduate course fairly recently and we talked about how Harris making Remus an Uncle Tom perpetuated racism and problematic ideals about African Americans being happy with being less than and ignoring the clear abuse to appease their white masters.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with Splash Mountain and would prefer for the attraction to stay. However, I understand why it's going and can't say I'm angry with its replacement (PatF deserves its own, original ride and shouldn't be shoe-horned into an existing ride, but I digress), given the lack of healthy black representation at the DLR (not sure about WDW). I recognize Splash as a classic and want it to stay, but Disney decided to build a ride based on a movie in their library that has been controversial since its release. In addition to that, they won't officially release the film on video or for streaming services. I had to buy a bootleg copy of the film to see what all of the hullaballoo was about. So Disney has no interest in having mature, adult conversations about the film, creating a disclaimer for it, and allowing the public to successfully access it. In my opinion, they should have never locked the movie away, but they did and now we are here. So they build a ride that's based on a movie they don't officially and formally want the American public to see. LOL. And now, 30+ years later, Disney's choices have led us to the end of Splash Mountain. If we're being honest, it was only a matter of time before Splash would be taken out. Disney has spent decades hiding the film. When the announcement to remove the ride was released last year, I had to explain to multiple friends what Song of the South was, as not only did they not know that Splash Mountain was based on a movie, but they had never even heard of Song of the South. Of course, they researched the movie, read about the controversy and how Disney is ashamed of it and hasn't officially released it in decades, and now they support Splash's removal. Imagine all of the other people who may have done the same. This is truly Disney's fault for having a hand in creating and fueling the stigma surrounding Song of the South instead of owning up to their film, allowing for people to watch it, and have meaningful discussion about race, slavery, Walt Disney, and many other topics that could stem from watching Song of the South.

Again, PatF has its own issues and is not perfect. But, as an African American, especially one who grew up without much black representation in the media I consumed as a child, I believe Tiana and the story in general are an acceptable source to use for a black representation ride in the parks. Looking through Disney's library, SotS and PatF are the only films I can think of with prominent black characters that are central to their respective films' plots (there is an ongoing joke within the black community about the Lion King characters being black, but they don't really count here). Seeing as Disney has no interest in creating and building original rides anymore, and SotS and PatF are the only options, I would support PatF a million times over SotS. Moreover, it appears that the ride will be picking up after the end of PatF, so there will be some originality there. I don't for one second believe Disney truly cares about the black American community. However, I'm not super displeased by this decision and will be in line to see what they've done with the story of our only black princess.
Just a reminder about SotS - they aren't slaves. They are sharecroppers. It's post Civil War. Its why Remus can just up and leave if he wants to. (Also other than the kid, the white folks are pretty darn unlikeable...)
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Just a reminder about SotS - they aren't slaves. They are sharecroppers. It's post Civil War. Its why Remus can just up and leave if he wants to. (Also other than the kid, the white folks are pretty darn unlikeable...)
I’m aware. But the Reconstruction era was also a horrible time for black Americans (the next century for black Americans post-Civil War was not a good time), and therefore I still have a problem with the film.
 

champdisney

Well-Known Member
I have some time to finally address this. This will be an essay.

I'll start off by saying that as an African American, I have my own issues with Princess and the Frog. I hate that our first and most likely only black Disney princess spends the majority of the film as an amphibian. I really wish they had used another story to base a black princess off of, or simply come up with an original plotline, but it is what it is. In addition, I don't appreciate the lack of a black prince; we have a black princess, but no black prince. Instead, Disney created a racially ambiguous character with a European accent, from a fictional country that is the result of two countries combined, Maldives and Macedonia, the former being a South Asian country and the latter being a European one. They could have at least thrown in an African country in there or just made him African American. Naveen could have been a wealthy African American man with some sort of business empire who, like Tiana, also came from struggles. Those are my biggest issues with PatF.

Going back to Tiana being a frog, it's important to remember that for the question above. PatF may take place during the Jim Crow era, but that actual story pretty much has nothing to do with that, as the majority of the plot senters around animals on a bayou, including the main character. So if the story is a fantasy that takes place on a bayou with talking animals, a Jim Crow narrative just wouldn't make sense. With that being said, there are hints in the film, albeit subtle, that the situations in the film are obviously due to racial inequality (i.e. Tiana and her family living in a poorer, black neighborhood, her father having to work multiple shifts to support the family, Tiana and her mother working for a wealthy white family, Tiana being unable to afford her restaurant and having to work two jobs for years to save money to put a down payment on the building for her restaurant, the fact that there are no black people at Charlotte's ball, Tiana being outbid by someone who is able to pay the entire amount for the building and the bankers making a remark about her "background," insinuating that her business wouldn't have taken off anyway, etc.). PatF is a fantasy, animated, Disney film with talking animals; I wouldn't expect to see lynchings and the "N" word in the film, but I am pleased with the details that were put in to indicate the obvious inequality. Also, Tiana is NOT content with her position in life and is trying her best to change her and her mother's lives.

Song of the South... I don't find this film to be extremely racist, say like Birth of a Nation. However, it has issues, just like PatF, issues that have been brought up multiple times since the film's release. SotS does have some fantasy elements in the film (the re-tellings of the Brer characters), but the main plot is realistic with live, human characters. Seeing that it's a Disney film, like PatF, I wouldn't expect to have seen disturbing images, such as the murders of ex slaves in the film. However, I'm not pleased with the singing, tap dancing, smiling-all-the-time black folks in the film either. That's not to say that there weren't "happy" 19th century black people in America. But the representation of that in SotS is overdone and too much for me. Unlike Tiana, Remus and the other slaves are portrayed as being quite content with their lives. Throw in the typical Magical Negro plot point present in the film and I'm even more displeased. To be fair, the film is based on the Uncle Remus tales, an appropriation of the original African folklore stories by Joel Chandler Harris. He created the character of Uncle Remus and made him a plantation owner sympathizer and an Uncle Tom. I had to read some of the tales for an American literature graduate course fairly recently and we talked about how Harris making Remus an Uncle Tom perpetuated racism and problematic ideals about African Americans being happy with being less than and ignoring the clear abuse to appease their white masters.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with Splash Mountain and would prefer for the attraction to stay. However, I understand why it's going and can't say I'm angry with its replacement (PatF deserves its own, original ride and shouldn't be shoe-horned into an existing ride, but I digress), given the lack of healthy black representation at the DLR (not sure about WDW). I recognize Splash as a classic and want it to stay, but Disney decided to build a ride based on a movie in their library that has been controversial since its release. In addition to that, they won't officially release the film on video or for streaming services. I had to buy a bootleg copy of the film to see what all of the hullaballoo was about. So Disney has no interest in having mature, adult conversations about the film, creating a disclaimer for it, and allowing the public to successfully access it. In my opinion, they should have never locked the movie away, but they did and now we are here. So they build a ride that's based on a movie they don't officially and formally want the American public to see. LOL. And now, 30+ years later, Disney's choices have led us to the end of Splash Mountain. If we're being honest, it was only a matter of time before Splash would be taken out. Disney has spent decades hiding the film. When the announcement to remove the ride was released last year, I had to explain to multiple friends what Song of the South was, as not only did they not know that Splash Mountain was based on a movie, but they had never even heard of Song of the South. Of course, they researched the movie, read about the controversy and how Disney is ashamed of it and hasn't officially released it in decades, and now they support Splash's removal. Imagine all of the other people who may have done the same. This is truly Disney's fault for having a hand in creating and fueling the stigma surrounding Song of the South instead of owning up to their film, allowing for people to watch it, and have meaningful discussion about race, slavery, Walt Disney, and many other topics that could stem from watching Song of the South.

Again, PatF has its own issues and is not perfect. But, as an African American, especially one who grew up without much black representation in the media I consumed as a child, I believe Tiana and the story in general are an acceptable source to use for a black representation ride in the parks. Looking through Disney's library, SotS and PatF are the only films I can think of with prominent black characters that are central to their respective films' plots (there is an ongoing joke within the black community about the Lion King characters being black, but they don't really count here). Seeing as Disney has no interest in creating and building original rides anymore, and SotS and PatF are the only options, I would support PatF a million times over SotS. Moreover, it appears that the ride will be picking up after the end of PatF, so there will be some originality there. I don't for one second believe Disney truly cares about the black American community. However, I'm not super displeased by this decision and will be in line to see what they've done with the story of our only black princess.
I think we’ll see more royalty of color somewhere down the line. There’s quite a few countries out there in the world to base an authentic black princess off of. I personally would love to see a princess from the Caribbean, whether it be Haitian, Jamaican, or anywhere else in the islands. There’s a huge level of majestic value in the Caribbean that really separates it from any place else, combined with local folklore that you most likely have to travel there to hear it for yourself. That right there pretty much guarantees the great storytelling Disney is known for.

With PatF, I think Disney did the best they could with that film but I can see where you think they shot themselves a few times in the leg. They could’ve easily done a story in Africa or on the islands but instead they chose a country that carries massive blood on their hands. The black community was very outspoken about wanting a princess to call their own prior to PatF and Disney answered their wish. They just so happened to open up a whole new can of worms. I personally love the film, but I understand why some folks don’t feel all that satisfied with it. All in all, I highly doubt Tiana will be the only black Disney Princess. Rather the first of (possibly) many.
 

Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
1) They can walk off, slaves could not 2) By keeping the film hidden it actually increased the wrong perceptions of racism in the film. I've shown it to many of my Black friends who found it racist to a degree, but no where near as racist as they expected it to be. Any number of films in release still today are much worse.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Just a reminder about SotS - they aren't slaves. They are sharecroppers. It's post Civil War. Its why Remus can just up and leave if he wants to. (Also other than the kid, the white folks are pretty darn unlikeable...)
No. Uncle Remus could not "just up and leave" to wit:

"But life in the years after slavery also proved to be difficult. Although slavery was over, the brutalities of white race prejudice persisted. After slavery, state governments across the South instituted laws known as Black Codes. These laws granted certain legal rights to blacks, including the right to marry, own property, and sue in court, but the Codes also made it illegal for blacks to serve on juries, testify against whites, or serve in state militias. The Black Codes also required black sharecroppers and tenant farmers to sign annual labor contracts with white landowners. If they refused they could be arrested and hired out for work."


And slavery did not end with emancipation:

 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
Yes, but are they children’s films? Kids today aren’t watching Gone with the Wind or Birth of a Nation. They would, however, be watching Song of the South if Disney made it available.
Even if they decided to put it in a Walt Disney Treasures DVD set back in the 2000’s? Those weren’t geared towards children and even addressed some of the company’s more controversial content. IMHO, that would’ve been the perfect avenue to release Song of the South. https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Walt_Disney_Treasures
 

Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
No. Uncle Remus could not "just up and leave" to wit:

"But life in the years after slavery also proved to be difficult. Although slavery was over, the brutalities of white race prejudice persisted. After slavery, state governments across the South instituted laws known as Black Codes. These laws granted certain legal rights to blacks, including the right to marry, own property, and sue in court, but the Codes also made it illegal for blacks to serve on juries, testify against whites, or serve in state militias. The Black Codes also required black sharecroppers and tenant farmers to sign annual labor contracts with white landowners. If they refused they could be arrested and hired out for work."


And slavery did not end with emancipation:

He actually does get up to leave at one point in the movie.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Another aspect that should be mentioned is the name "Uncle Remus". The use of the terms "Uncle", "Aunt", "Boy" and "Old Man" when used for black people are racist carryovers from the days of slavery. After emancipation, Jim Crow etiquette became the norm for how black people were to interact with whites. And if blacks failed to observe these racial etiquette rules, they could pay for their mistake with their life:

 

Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
And that's the freedom that Walt Disney enjoyed in bringing this fictional story to the movies. In reality all freed blacks were restricted by the Black Code. It was just another name for slavery:

As I said before and my last word on SotS as a film is my Black friends found it mildly racist but no where near as racist as they were expected to believe. Holding the film from release just contributed to building this. As I am white, and they are not, I trust their words more than mine.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
As I said before and my last word on SotS as a film is my Black friends found it mildly racist but no where near as racist as they were expected to believe. Holding the film from release just contributed to building this. As I am white, and they are not, I trust their words more than mine.
It is clearly not a matter of opinion. Facts are facts. Just because a person (or a group) perceives the movie to be mildly racist does not negate the fact that the movie is rife with racism and it paints a totally false and unrealistic picture of how blacks were treated by whites during this period of American history.

Of course I don't really expect most people to know that the brutalities of the white race against blacks continued long after the Thirteenth Amendment (1865) was passed. And that is why it's so important for Disney to have sought out the help of an independent review board to evaluate all of the Disney movies and attractions.

I clearly remember the first time I visited The American Adventure. I saw the confederate battle flag hanging over the escalators as if it was a legitimate national flag. I concluded that there was an imagineer that was either a racist or completely unaware that the display of the confederate battle flag in modern times was a response by segregationists in protest of the civil rights movement. Fortunately, it was just plain ignorance on the part of TWDC and when they were made aware of their mistake, the flag came down.

It's taken Disney a very long time to admit that some of their attractions and movies have inappropriate content. So I can't be critical of your black friends who were unable to recognize the rampant racism in Song of the South.
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
It is clearly not a matter of opinion.

NARRATOR: It was a matter of opinion.

I clearly remember the first time I visited The American Adventure. I saw the confederate battle flag hanging over the escalators as if it was a legitimate national flag. I concluded that there was an imagineer that was either a racist or completely unaware that the display of the confederate battle flag in modern times was a response by segregationists in protest of the civil rights movement. Fortunately, it was just plain ignorance on the part of TWDC and when they were made aware of their mistake, the flag came down.

The American Adventure opened in 1982 (on EPCOT Center opening day). The #2 rated television show in the country the previous year?

♫ Just two good old boys; never meaning no harm ... ♫

Dukes-of-Hazzard-CBS.jpg
 
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Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
It is clearly not a matter of opinion. Facts are facts. Just because a person (or a group) perceives the movie to be mildly racist does not negate the fact that the movie is rife with racism and it paints a totally false and unrealistic picture of how blacks were treated by whites during this period of American history.

Of course I don't really expect most people to know that the brutalities of the white race against blacks continued long after the Thirteenth Amendment (1865) was passed. And that is why it's so important for Disney to have sought out the help of an independent review board to evaluate all of the Disney movies and attractions.

I clearly remember the first time I visited The American Adventure. I saw the confederate battle flag hanging over the escalators as if it was a legitimate national flag. I concluded that there was an imagineer that was either a racist or completely unaware that the display of the confederate battle flag in modern times was a response by segregationists in protest of the civil rights movement. Fortunately, it was just plain ignorance on the part of TWDC and when they were made aware of their mistake, the flag came down.

It's taken Disney a very long time to admit that some of their attractions and movies have inappropriate content. So I can't be critical of your black friends who were unable to recognize the rampant racism in Song of the South.
We'll agree to disagree... but its opinion not fact. And like I said, I'll take my Black friends opion over a white person who obviously hasn't seen the film in a long time.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
We'll agree to disagree... but its opinion not fact. And like I said, I'll take my Black friends opion over a white person who obviously hasn't seen the film in a long time.
Your interpretation is just wrong. And clearly TWDC also knows your interpretation is wrong since they have reserved a permanent spot for Song of the South in their movie vault. You are entitled to ignore the facts if you so desire.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
However, for all the flack those who don't want Splash Mountain to be rethemed (like me) have gotten, a lot of the ones that are in favor of the retheme haven't been all that nice either. I'd rather not be treated like a bad person for not agreeing with the claim that Splash Mountain is racist.
Do you mean here or elsewhere? I can think of only one poster who consistently berates others for opposing the retheme.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Night and day difference in the way TCM treats their older films and what Disney has done:





TCM has worked with Disney in recent years. Sponsoring The Great Movie Ride prior to its closure, hosting events on Disney Cruise Line and having quarterly Disney themed time slots hosted by Leonard Maltin. They would be a great venue to show movies like Song of the South and others.
 
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Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
There’s something I want to say, and I was going to say it in the other board, but it’s more appropriate in politics.

I’ve seen quite a many “Brer Rabbit stories shouldn’t be told because of SotS or because they were preserved by a white man” posts on this board. Take away the music, the character designs, the films, and the ride. Fine. But Disney still took on the responsibility of adapting these stories, rooted in black culture, and damaged their reputation to an incredible degree. Anything less than ensuring that future generations understand the truth behind these stories isn’t the right thing.

So praise the company all you want for destroying the last bit of integrity these stories have in the eyes of the public. But you have no ground to stand on criticizing people that like Brer Rabbit. You have no grounds to call them or the character “racist”. If you do, you’re acting like a clown.

But Splash Mountain fans who reject the idea because of “PC culture” and the “Libs”, do not rejoice. If that is your reason for wanting to keep it, you are also acting like a clown.

Don’t be a clown. Please.
 
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