Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts Tres

[articos]

Speaking of spending.
http://micechat.com/30626-disneyland-resort-6/

An observation on this article...first, he/she makes some great points about the budgets and capital spend. It should be required reading for anyone who complains about corners being cut, etc. However, I also think they're off-base on the snipes he/she's taking about WDI. Yes, WDI is expensive, but that's not the entire reason for things coming in over-budget. There are reasons WDI is in the position they're in, and the way the system works. If you end up bidding things out all the time (which is what WDI actually DOES do, with themselves overseeing), you end up with inferior quality work at times, or worse, in a theme park environment, people could get hurt. I'm not saying WDI isn't overpriced - they are. But, the company is one company, working together. Instead of taking shots at WDI, it would be more productive if the division this person is from had their execs sit down with WDI and start a dialogue on costs and why they feel WDI is out of line.

Second, regarding the sign he's talking about - it's a digitally printed sign. I can only guess, but as someone who is big on show quality, if I saw a digitally printed sign (which by definition is a piece of paper) in a themed environment, well, maybe to the Accountineer, it was good enough, but to the WDI person or myself, it would stick out like a sore thumb. Now, WDI didn't have to specify they spend $1k, but they were doing what they're used to doing - what Ops should have done was gone back to WDI and said "this is a temporary sign for a 3 month use - can you please give us something that's going to cost $200, not $1k." Of course, no one communicated. The problem with large corporations with multiple divisions: people don't talk to each other.

 

[WDW1974]

No, not $1.2B. More like $0.8.

So at the risk of turning my thread into yet another unneeded Avatar one, I'll bite here. Are you saying that TWDC has doubled the budget for Pandora to a figure higher than what DAK cost to open in 1998 and equal to EPCOT Center in 1982?

 

[Funmeister]

There's some kind of add-on or unique platform that Lightstorm pioneered when making the film. Maybe it's not Autodesk. I Googled it a few days ago and all I remember is it's the unique system they used for Avatar and WDI bought a bunch of licenses. The name escapes me.

They're doing significant animation work with the Autodesk software used in the films behind the scenes. Digital steel beams, if you will.

So you said "They're doing significant work with the Autodesk software" and then you said "Maybe it's not Autodesk?"
How dare people question your credibility! lol Good work timmy....good work

 

[articos]

Speaking of Weta, any update on the situation at ILM?

Not sure what you're asking about? Situation at ILM regarding what?

 

[NoChesterHester]

A project like that which you used as an example would most likely cost at least a billion. I just googled because was curious to see what the costs of large convention centers cost and one of the first things that came up was a convention center complex that cost 870 million to build. The numbers are hard to believe maybe, but the costs people are throwing around aren't actually that unreasonable.

I actually use the example of guardrail... We don't think much about it but it's a necessary protective thing (the presence of a guardrail saved my life in a few months ago actually. Anyways...) In a city near where I go to school, there was a nasty stretch of road where there were 12 accidents or so in a year. They decided to put guardrail down there and the project cost of $21,000 in all. Now can you guess how much road the guardrail covered? ... 362 feet. That isn't even a tenth of a mile and it cost over 21 grand. Pretty crazy eh?

I am very well versed in real world large scale construction. I design urban projects for a living. While this isn't my work here is a perfect example of what I am referring to:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/21/r...f-new-623-million-convention-center.html?_r=0

The Nashville Convention center cost $623 million, with surrounding development (hotels and infrastructure improvements) the budget approaches $700 million. It is gorgeous and state of the art in every way. I think this just further illustrates how ridiculous the discussions on "IF" a half a billion dollars is enough to revitalize a theme park. If it isn't then lots of heads should roll.

 

[WDW1974]

Re: Avatar, there's no issue of trust because they haven't promised anything. Anything we know is based on insider information. There's no violation of "trust" if they go from an $800M land to a $200M land because they never SAID it was going to be $800M, we just happen to have some folks sharing some of the internal decision making process along the way.

Disney has said to the media (the real media) that the development would be in the $400-500 million range. I haven't heard/seen/read anything to suggest that the figure has changed, let alone gone up. But I'll ask around ... My interest in the project is about as low as the dragged out six-year timeline to build it is.

I think I'd rather talk Tangled toilets because they actually exist.

 

[GoofGoof]

A "C" is in but I don't know what form it is. The E-ticket is very much NOT a Soarin' style simulator.
And I've admitted very recently that the nighttime show I had considered a lock might not be as definite as I had assumed.

Good to hear. What are the plans for the E ticket now? The original rumor and leaked plans had a show building with 4 large theaters and rows of seats suspended in front of large screens. It was described at the time as being the next generation of the technology used for Soarin with an expanded range of motion. While that sounds really cool I do suffer from motion sickness so Soarin is about my limit for a ride. More motion and I will probably need to visit what will hopefully be Avatar themed bathrooms to hurl. I think that's why the boat ride appealed to me.

 

[WDW1974]

I'll ask this question again, but won't expect anyone to really have an answer I guess, since very few people would really be able to see these numbers. Just hopeful maybe @WDW1974 heard something on his visit, and since he brought up the "billions on tech that isnt needed", it brought the question to my mind again.

Anyone know how much of the reported budget on NGE was spent on underlying systems and technical infrastructure? Not the "bells and whistles" that they threw on top to sell it to the board of directors and to the customers, but the work to create new systems, upgrade and sunset old outdated (and likely falling apart) ones, integration of different separate systems into consolidated ones, etc.

I would love a look at the financials of NGE and where the money is going, but I doubt anyone below Meg's level has even viewed a breakdown, let alone possesses a hard copy. But much of the cost was, is and will be on things that guests never see. The absolute biggest reason why this is a huge waste of resources.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Not sure what you're asking about? Situation at ILM regarding what?

If they have a future? Iger's "it's a decent business" comment suggested ILM will possibly be scaled down.

 

[GoofGoof]

An observation on this article...first, he/she makes some great points about the budgets and capital spend. It should be required reading for anyone who complains about corners being cut, etc. However, I also think they're off-base on the snipes he/she's taking about WDI. Yes, WDI is expensive, but that's not the entire reason for things coming in over-budget. There are reasons WDI is in the position they're in, and the way the system works. If you end up bidding things out all the time (which is what WDI actually DOES do, with themselves overseeing), you end up with inferior quality work at times, or worse, in a theme park environment, people could get hurt. I'm not saying WDI isn't overpriced - they are. But, the company is one company, working together. Instead of taking shots at WDI, it would be more productive if the division this person is from had their execs sit down with WDI and start a dialogue on costs and why they feel WDI is out of line.

Second, regarding the sign he's talking about - it's a digitally printed sign. I can only guess, but as someone who is big on show quality, if I saw a digitally printed sign (which by definition is a piece of paper) in a themed environment, well, maybe to the Accountineer, it was good enough, but to the WDI person or myself, it would stick out like a sore thumb. Now, WDI didn't have to specify they spend $1k, but they were doing what they're used to doing - what Ops should have done was gone back to WDI and said "this is a temporary sign for a 3 month use - can you please give us something that's going to cost $200, not $1k." Of course, no one communicated. The problem with large corporations with multiple divisions: people don't talk to each other.

Great post. I think this also points out the double edged sword that exists. We all complain about cutting corners and lesser quality park additions, but we also complain about the fact that it costs so much for WDW to build things.

 

[GoofGoof]

So at the risk of turning my thread into yet another unneeded Avatar one, I'll bite here. Are you saying that TWDC has doubled the budget for Pandora to a figure higher than what DAK cost to open in 1998 and equal to EPCOT Center in 1982?

Put into context it is staggering how much these recent projects cost. EPCOT was a long time ago, but AK was less than 15 years. The article posted quoted Tower of Terror for DCA at $115M. Its a fantastic ride and really, really well done, but entire actual hotels go up for less money

 

[WDW1974]

I'm not sure why @bubbles1812 things I'm angry. Certainly not. I'm a learner by nature and I really want to understand.

Iger and his disciples run the show, yes?

Iger and his disciples are blamed for the vast majority of perceived problems at WDW, including Blue Ocean. (See @WDW1974's OP in Spirited thread #2.)

Spirit and his friends praise DLR, DCL, and other non-WDW Disney properties for their wonderfulness.

Iger runs the WHOLE show, not just WDW.

I've asked this before but have yet to get a good answer. If Iger and his way of thinking are responsible for the demise of WDW, why hasn't his awfulness and poisonous thinking ruined DLR, DCL, and these other entities within TWDC? What is so unique about WDW that it makes Iger an incompetent executive in so many people's eyes, when the same people look with wonderment on the rest of his domain?

Because every business isn't treated or run the same. WDW is considered a mature investment and Disney's mindset is to invest the least it can beyond real estate development/land sales and new technology that Bob believes will mean greater profits from the same people (or amount of people).

DLR had a second gate that was a drain on the resort. It also relies on more local visitors and can't trot out the same tired product year after year. Also, being in the entertainment and media capital of the world means you have more discerning guests who are on the cutting edges of trends.

DCL is a growing business unit that isn't close to mature. Look at the difference having the Disney Fantasy around this year in the second quarter did for earnings. Disney is looking to add another two ships before the decade is over and expand to all sorts of destinations.

I look at the entire picture and I don't like Iger's vision for Disney. He is destroying creativity at a company based on it.

 

[articos]

If they have a future? Iger's "it's a decent business" comment suggested ILM will possibly be scaled down.

ILM's not going anywhere. They have more competition than they've ever had, but they also still do top-tier work, and they're hired by all of the studios.They scale up and down already, based on the amount of work they have at the moment. They've arguably been a bit too large over the past few years, so Disney's been laying off people in an effort to make ILM more lean, plus with the closing of LucasArts as a studio, they didn't need a chunk of people who were dedicated to games. I don't expect much change short term for ILM. Longer term - and this is strictly a guess/possibility - Disney could start to reign in their external work and try to keep ILM for themselves, but I don't know. That's a lot of resources for the few films that Disney puts out per year. And they do make a lot of cash on Paramount and Warner and Sony projects too.

 

[MattM]

They won't go. They aren't Disney. They are more upscale and cater to more sophisticated clientele. You have no DDP locations. Where else can you walk into a character dinner with only 10 tables occupied and the characters can stay and play as long as your kids or you want them to? And what Disney signature locales will seat you at 11 p.m.?

Relax, Matt, most folks are afraid of these places. That's one reason why I've been going for years.

Thing is, they're not even that upscale. Sure, they're nice, don't get me wrong. Shula's has a good steak and we've always had fantastic service. BlueZoo is always good, but it is way too swanky for the typical WDW crowd.

Of all the time I'm out there, I've never bee to Il Mulino for some reason. Any good?

 

[twebber55]

So at the risk of turning my thread into yet another unneeded Avatar one, I'll bite here. Are you saying that TWDC has doubled the budget for Pandora to a figure higher than what DAK cost to open in 1998 and equal to EPCOT Center in 1982?

do you have an idea what the pandora e ticket will be?

 

[Goofyernmost]

Second, regarding the sign he's talking about - it's a digitally printed sign. I can only guess, but as someone who is big on show quality, if I saw a digitally printed sign (which by definition is a piece of paper) in a themed environment, well, maybe to the Accountineer, it was good enough, but to the WDI person or myself, it would stick out like a sore thumb. Now, WDI didn't have to specify they spend $1k, but they were doing what they're used to doing - what Ops should have done was gone back to WDI and said "this is a temporary sign for a 3 month use - can you please give us something that's going to cost $200, not $1k." Of course, no one communicated. The problem with large corporations with multiple divisions: people don't talk to each other.

Funny, I noticed that too, but, I waited to see if anyone else picked up on it or got so overwhelmed with wasted money that they think that made sense. A digitally produced sign...ink on paper...and WDI vetoed that in favor of a quality sign that costs a lot more. Why is that a bad thing? If it is an effort to explain why Disney has no money to spend, it was a poor one. This board spends countless hours talking about how Disney cheaps out every project, and now we are supposed to accept a paper sign instead of a quality one? On top of that it's $1000.00 dollars. I suspect that Disney drops that much on the ground accidentally every day. It's parking meter change that goes a long way to keeping up the "quality" image that Disney has tried to maintain. I'm glad the accountants lost and WDI won.

If they don't think we notice things like that they are wrong. I noticed that canvas sign for Imagination w/Figment instead of a permanent quality sign. It looks like it will only be there for a week or so, but, it has been there for years now. I mentioned to a CM when I went there that if they are going to be that cheap at least replace it once in a while. It was faded and dirty. I made sure that I was clear that I didn't think it was there fault, but, would they please pass along the information that it is noticeable. I noticed the next year there was a new banner. Not exactly what I would have wanted, but, it was better then what was there.

 

[sshindel]

I would love a look at the financials of NGE and where the money is going, but I doubt anyone below Meg's level has even viewed a breakdown, let alone possesses a hard copy. But much of the cost was, is and will be on things that guests never see. The absolute biggest reason why this is a huge waste of resources.

I guess it's the IT worker in me that thinks that money spent on bringing computer systems and infrastructure up to date is not a waste of resources. I'd be out of a job otherwise. Improving back end systems is never the sexy decision, but there comes a time when so much money is being spent maintaining older systems, or potential business benefit is being lost, that investing in things the guest will never see becomes the only way forward. Now, discussing the timing of when those investments are made is valid, but in my experience, there is never a "good" time in most people's eyes, and problems end up being fixed with band-aids and chicken wire until a catastrophic event happens, in the IT sense. If putting a bunch of trimmings on system upgrades allowed them to sell this as a win to the board, and allows them to show some value to the guests, it's a win in my book.
Of course, that is making an assumption that a massive system overhaul was included in NGE.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I look at the entire picture and I don't like Iger's vision for Disney. He is destroying creativity at a company based on it.

Bob is turning TWDC into GM circa 1970's-Pre bailout.

 

[GoofGoof]

I guess it's the IT worker in me that thinks that money spent on bringing computer systems and infrastructure up to date is not a waste of resources. I'd be out of a job otherwise. Improving back end systems is never the sexy decision, but there comes a time when so much money is being spent maintaining older systems, or potential business benefit is being lost, that investing in things the guest will never see becomes the only way forward. Now, discussing the timing of when those investments are made is valid, but in my experience, there is never a "good" time in most people's eyes, and problems end up being fixed with band-aids and chicken wire until a catastrophic event happens, in the IT sense. If putting a bunch of trimmings on system upgrades allowed them to sell this as a win to the board, and allows them to show some value to the guests, it's a win in my book.
Of course, that is making an assumption that a massive system overhaul was included in NGE.

For that kind of money they had to get a pretty significant overhaul of something.

 

[WDW1974]

As @Tim_4 said, the general consensus on this board was that it was gutted, if not outright cancelled.

But if we apply those same standards of "pretty bundling" to everyone, then we cant be impressed with those who tell us that there are things that may be happening at UNI (JP, CITH, etc) but we don't know what, right?

I don't think there's ever been a consensus here on anything beyond we like theme parks.

I don't ever recall hearing anyone, or anyone I respect, say 'Avatar has been gutted' ...opposite was true. Early on, Disney played the same game it did with J.K. and Cameron threatened to walk. That was when I said Avatar was on life support. Again, don't know one person who ever said it had been killed.

As to the not-so-veiled shot, I'll put my track record against anyone in either online media or real media. My UNI info has actually been damn near 100% accurate. Disney not quite as good because they can't make decisions and actually follow through. Doubt my info if you chose, either way, I'll sleep the same tonight.