Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

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HMF

Well-Known Member
They werent doing any harm to me, its just very sad and disturbing to see people slowly killing themselves.
I find it sad too but I can sympathize because as of right now it is not really a pleasant time to be living in this Country and to a lesser extent this world so I can completely understand why people would want to medicate themselves with food and try to get as much pleasure as possible in a world that seems to becoming more and more bleak every day. I don't condone it but I can understand it and I feel that the current social climate breeds these types of situations.
 

Lee

Adventurer
So...it has begun...

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The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Totally different things. If you have kids, you know that's not an apples to apples comparison. If you don't, let the floggings commence! :hilarious:

Kidding aside, We all have different backgrounds and experiences which allow us to make informed (to varying degrees) opinions about running a theme park. Plenty of folks make themselves look stupid by sharing uninformed opinion here.

But parenting is different from anything else. Even raising my own kids, I have to take very different approaches to parenting with each of them. Unless you are an expert of some kind, you couldn't possibly give me good parenting advice without getting to know my kids.

And yet, people without kids (people who know less about the subject than anyone else in the world) always seem to think they have the whole thing figured out. They've got all the answers and oh brother are they willing to share their collected wisdom. Usually it consists of doing the most obvious thing. The thing all new parents try first. The thing that never works.

They also get really put out when they are inconvenienced in any way by families. Because their world still revolves around them. (Yes, gross generalization, I know.) These are the people who rant for pages and pages about the evils of strollers at a place which is marketed aggressively to families with small children. :facepalm:
Well, one must agree one can scarcely berate parents for using a stroller in a pedestrian environment. It is normal.

It is not the parents I have issues with. I have issues with the larger forces that created the stroller problem.

Because, why are the strollers and the stroller parking areas such a problem? That is because the MK, the greatest and best executed set of urban planning of the 20th century, didn't plan or allow for these strollers. Neither the massive amount of kids, nor the urge to haul extensive gear and supplies around, nor the propensity for ever bigger machines was anticipated. It is later mismanagement of the MK that has caused the problems, and social changes that are on the whole not for the better.

The MK has been marketed as a kiddie park. Then when it - surprise - attracted all those toddlers, it emerged that the MK wasn't at all fit for them. The result is that the MK is forever cartoonified, dumbed down, toddlerfied. Adult attractions are ripped out. Adult environments cartoonified. And pathways have to be cleared, benches and planters and fountains have to be stripped out so that every MK land has a parking lots bigger than the Astrodome's. The pathways themselves are rendered unnavigable, it is stressful to walk the park. A park whose beauty too has greatly suffered because of the stroller prolifiration.
 

Megalodumb

Well-Known Member
I find it sad too but I can sympathize because as of right now it is not really a pleasant time to be living in this Country and to a lesser extent this world so I can completely understand why people would want to medicate themselves with food and try to get as much pleasure as possible in a world that seems to becoming more and more bleak every day. I don't condone it but I can understand it and I feel that the current social climate breeds these types of situations.
Using food as a crutch is no way for a person to escape his/her problems. Emotional eating is a very dangerous habit to develop. Eating for comfort not only does nothing to eliminate the problem(s) from which you are running from, but it also makes conditions worse, and can easily become an addiction. I understand we all face problems & difficulties, but eating for the sole purpose of relieving stress or escaping a dilemma cannot be sympathized with under any circumstance.

There are many other ways a person can relieve stress or help fend off difficulties. Taking part in a healthy habit, reading a book, exercising, or meditation are all good practices. Some people choose spiritual healing/practices. Me personally, I prefer to roll a fatty, put on some Bruce Springsteen music, or simply binge drink for an hour+ until my problems dissolve. But leaning on food as comfort alone is not only an unsafe habit, it is also meaningless considering how your problems will still persist AFTER the eating takes place.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
Photo ID for young children? How would that work exactly? They don't even need photo ID to go through airport security. Seems pretty impractical to require your guests to obtain a photo ID just to rent a stroller.

If there are less than 100 strollers in the parks I guess it would be "easier" for the people who don't have young kids although I still haven't heard anyone explain exactly how these strollers are negatively impacting their experience. It would also be "easier" for able bodied guests if there were no wheelchairs in the parks. It would also be "easier" for people with young children if there were no adults traveling without kids in the parks. Less waiting in lines plus easier for the kids to see at the parades. I'm not suggesting any of these things. Just pointing out that "easier" is pretty subjective and can change based on what is going on in your life at the time. Disney does a pretty good job of accommodating all types of people in the parks. I don't see that changing.

Like how it works for any other country - your child needs a passport/photo ID if I want to take my godson on a plane to London I have to have photo ID for him otherwise he can't travel. Its only impractical if your kids are older than the desired age to be in a stroller, i.e. older than 4.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Re: HHN

IMHO, this is the best collection of houses I have ever seen. American Werewolf in London alone is worth the price of admission. And Cabin in the Woods is also a VERY strong house. My biggest complaint is there are large swaths of the park where there is NOTHING. No mood lighting. No fog. nothing. At times it feels like a regular night in the park. I am hoping that by this week they at least get some mood lighting in the dead zones.
But this year, without a doubt, is better than the last 2 years and rivals some of the better years.
 

John

Well-Known Member
You know what I hate......Those fat Brazilian spiders that ride in ECV's and line cut.....oh and they smoke too. Lets ban them. You know I think they are liberals.....of all things. I seen a whole gaggle of them at WDW during gay days. They were all walking around.....30-40 at a time with matching spider tee shirts. These guest really chap my . I think they were a part of the spider cheerleading groups.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Well, one must agree one can scarcely berate parents for using a stroller in a pedestrian environment. It is normal.

It is not the parents I have issues with. I have issues with the larger forces that created the stroller problem.

Because, why are the strollers and the stroller parking areas such a problem? That is because the MK, the greatest and best executed set of urban planning of the 20th century, didn't plan or allow for these strollers. Neither the massive amount of kids, nor the urge to haul extensive gear and supplies around, nor the propensity for ever bigger machines was anticipated. It is later mismanagement of the MK that has caused the problems, and social changes that are on the whole not for the better.

The MK has been marketed as a kiddie park. Then when it - surprise - attracted all those toddlers, it emerged that the MK wasn't at all fit for them. The result is that the MK is forever cartoonified, dumbed down, toddlerfied. Adult attractions are ripped out. Adult environments cartoonified. And pathways have to be cleared, benches and planters and fountains have to be stripped out so that every MK land has a parking lots bigger than the Astrodome's. The pathways themselves are rendered unnavigable, it is stressful to walk the park. A park whose beauty too has greatly suffered because of the stroller prolifiration.
When you wish upon a star,
Change in management is afar,
Fix it up and do it quick,
Bring back magic make it stick.

There you go - my attempt at poetry.
 

IHeartArt

Active Member
AWIL is one of my favorite houses I've ever been in. Bill and Ted was actually kinda funny for once! Scarezones blew, but 2013 is pretty freaking good.

You people want to go see a good Halloween event? Go to HHN this year.
 

Skip

Well-Known Member
Re: HHN

IMHO, this is the best collection of houses I have ever seen. American Werewolf in London alone is worth the price of admission. And Cabin in the Woods is also a VERY strong house. My biggest complaint is there are large swaths of the park where there is NOTHING. No mood lighting. No fog. nothing. At times it feels like a regular night in the park. I am hoping that by this week they at least get some mood lighting in the dead zones.
But this year, without a doubt, is better than the last 2 years and rivals some of the better years.

Resident Evil, La Llorona, Havoc, and Afterlife are getting way too mixed of reviews to call this the strongest lineup of houses objectively - if that's your opinion, that's seriously awesome, because there's nothing better when you like all 8 houses. (The last time that happened to me was 2011.) I'll be attending next week so I can give a full informed opinion then, but for now this definitely seems to trump last year... I wouldn't say it trumps 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011... (2010 you could make a case for, definitely)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
If there are less than 100 strollers in the parks I guess it would be "easier" for the people who don't have young kids although I still haven't heard anyone explain exactly how these strollers are negatively impacting their experience

Seriously? You find none of this detracting?

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No one likes walls of trash or fences blocking their views or access through the parks... and people don't like walls of strollers doing the same thing.
 

71jason

Well-Known Member
Eh... I don't want to really start up that argument in this setting, but 2013 is only really better than 2012, and that's not saying much. Can't think of a single year in the last decade that was better than this year besides that.

Please, it's more interesting than the repeated arguments we've seen lately.

Besides 2012, I think 2010, 2007 (or maybe 2008, damn I'm old) and 2004 would be slam dunks. And if it holds up through the season, I think it could stand against any year.

Of the 8 houses, AWiL is universally (no pun intended) lauded as one of the best ever. CitW and ED are also getting high marks. LL and RE seem to be polarizing, but I see potential in each (especially the former). For me the only real clunker this year is Afterlife. Throw in a strong Bill & Teds and Kang & Kodos and I'm willing to overlook the repetitive, somewhat understaffed SZs.

AWiL has a compelling story, an OCD-like level of detail from the movie, and innovate new effects. Who knew that those things could come together to make a great theme park attraction?
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
So...

How bout them theme parks?
Did you hear...7DMT completed its first drop! It seems every step of construction is seen by Disney as a news worthy event. Seriously though, why do the imagineers keep taking big group photos as if they were part of the Apollo missions first launch? Last week they took one because the first car arrived, this week another for the first big drop event. I am opening some mail later, perhaps they will pose with me for this monumental event...my cable bill! (Comcast.haha)
 

Skip

Well-Known Member
Please, it's more interesting than the repeated arguments we've seen lately.

Besides 2012, I think 2010, 2007 (or maybe 2008, damn I'm old) and 2004 would be slam dunks. And if it holds up through the season, I think it could stand against any year.

Of the 8 houses, AWiL is universally (no pun intended) lauded as one of the best ever. CitW and ED are also getting high marks. LL and RE seem to be polarizing, but I see potential in each (especially the former). For me the only real clunker this year is Afterlife. Throw in a strong Bill & Teds and Kang & Kodos and I'm willing to overlook the repetitive, somewhat understaffed SZs.

AWiL has a compelling story, an OCD-like level of detail from the movie, and innovate new effects. Who knew that those things could come together to make a great theme park attraction?

We've definitely disagreed on the strength of 2010 in the past (I feel it's a weaker, hubris-laden year with subpar houses and merely okay scare zones, not to mention a stupefyingly bad "super-icon"). 2007/2004 were wonderfully executed, though 2007 was marred slightly by the lacking quality of Club Vampyr and the sparsity of its street "experience" (much like 2013's is, though at least the loose carnival motif gave them some variety). 2008's house lineup was a bit more mixed, but the incredibly strong scare zone lineup and overarching theme elevated it to "awesome year" status. I also think 2009 doesn't get enough credit - its zones were mostly good, and it had an amazing lineup of houses (the only weak one was really Spawning, though Leave it to Cleaver was fairly polarizing). 2011 I also don't think gets enough credit due to the botching of Lady Luck - it had a great buildup, a fantastic lineup of houses (my favorite lineup thus far) and some great zones (7, Canyon, Acid Assault, Grown Evil).

I just don't think this year stands up to that, though you're right in that some elements are too early to call. The lack of a proper buildup (the "PS Blog" was hilariously mishandled), all-star house lineup, and lack of any proper street experience still forces it to be in the relatively lower echelon of years. There's very little creativity at work this year in terms of overall vision, especially in the streets... throwing a barn, tank and bamboo traps haphazardly around does not impress me. Making the entire park infested with zombies very quickly erodes what little fear factor they ever had... by the time you get to the Walking Dead house (which is also getting mixed reviews), they aren't even remotely scary anymore. It was marketing making a creative call; marketing folks don't realize that over saturation simply kills any effectiveness within several minutes. Variety is the spice of life, and right now, if you don't REALLY love zombies, those walks between houses are going to be really dull.

I'm not saying this is a bad year... from what it looks like, I'm expecting an average year. American Werewolf in London looks like as a masterpiece, with Evil Dead & Cabin emerging as strong, rock-solid houses. I expect to really like La Llorona and have mixed feelings about Havoc/Walking Dead... I have a feeling I'm going to really dislike Resident Evil, so I'm going into that one with low expectations. If the streets had been the original Evil Takes Root angle, I think this year could've compared to 2009 and easily could've transcended 2010.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
I do have kids... three of them.

Then you must realize how wrong you are. ;)

The same can be said of business. Some people are experienced in being part of them... some even have experience helping making choices in one... but that's not the same as being 'the man' who actually is on the hook for everything.. good or bad. They are also not all the same... just as you know things about your kids that others do not at first glance.. the same can be said of businesses and the constraints they operate under.

Let's be real... what makes this 'different' is by some telling others how parenting is done, they are trying to tell YOU how to parent. When you both rant about Disney.. neither of you take personal offense because neither of you have personal vestment into what is being criticized. When someone says 'this is how parenting should be...' they are through inclusion making claims how YOUR parenting should be.

Being uninformed hasn't stopped ranting about topics before... the uninformed will do the same about parenting too. Even from other parents :)

I think I mostly agree with what you're getting at. In text, it's hard to tell exactly how to interpret the emphasis on YOU and YOUR.

On the whole, I'm a lot more receptive to parenting tips from other parents. We may not have the same parenting style. We may not agree. But odds are they get it. Parenting is hard. Harder than anyone can ever understand unless they have been there. Parents have earned the right to discus the subject of parenting.

People who have never had kids are usually really quick to offer advice like "Just tell them no sometimes" like it's really as easy as all that. Or specific to this conversation, they will make judgements about which kids should or should not be in a stroller. "Just make them walk". STFU. I'll decide for myself whether or not my kids should be in a stroller.

Parenting is a profound and deeply personal experience. It's the single most important thing most people will ever do in their lifetime. So naturally there is resistance when someone offers unsolicited advice on parenting. Especially when the person offering said advice has no parenting experience.

Your initial post suggested we should apply the same reasoning to businesses. That anyone without direct experience operating a theme park or resort should not voice their opinions on this subject. But the two subjects are not equivalent.

I don't have a background in the industry and I think I can safely say I'm not qualified to run Disney, the resort, the parks or even the hotels. By those standards, I do not have an informed opinion. If I were in a conversation with someone with first hand experience, I would not be offering my opinion unless they asked. Then I would be offering my insights as a customer.

What we're having here is a conversation among fans. The quality of insights and opinions varies wildly from poster to poster. @ParentsOf4 never fails to enlighten. Whereas other posters (*cough*jt*cough*) are usually a distraction at best. Mostly, we're just passing the time and sharing common interests. That's a different thing than making proclamations on proper parenting techniques. At least in my book it is.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
Then you must realize how wrong you are. ;)



I think I mostly agree with what you're getting at. In text, it's hard to tell exactly how to interpret the emphasis on YOU and YOUR.

On the whole, I'm a lot more receptive to parenting tips from other parents. We may not have the same parenting style. We may not agree. But odds are they get it. Parenting is hard. Harder than anyone can ever understand unless they have been there. Parents have earned the right to discus the subject of parenting.

People who have never had kids are usually really quick to offer advice like "Just tell them no sometimes" like it's really as easy as all that. Or specific to this conversation, they will make judgements about which kids should or should not be in a stroller. "Just make them walk". STFU. I'll decide for myself whether or not my kids should be in a stroller.

Parenting is a profound and deeply personal experience. It's the single most important thing most people will ever do in their lifetime. So naturally there is resistance when someone offers unsolicited advice on parenting. Especially when the person offering said advice has no parenting experience.

Your initial post suggested we should apply the same reasoning to businesses. That anyone without direct experience operating a theme park or resort should not voice their opinions on this subject. But the two subjects are not equivalent.

I don't have a background in the industry and I think I can safely say I'm not qualified to run Disney, the resort, the parks or even the hotels. By those standards, I do not have an informed opinion. If I were in a conversation with someone with first hand experience, I would not be offering my opinion unless they asked. Then I would be offering my insights as a customer.

What we're having here is a conversation among fans. The quality of insights and opinions varies wildly from poster to poster. @ParentsOf4 never fails to enlighten. Whereas other posters (*cough*jt*cough*) are usually a distraction at best. Mostly, we're just passing the time and sharing common interests. That's a different thing than making proclamations on proper parenting techniques. At least in my book it is.
I am not a parent, yet. I dont know how you guys do it. Especially with more than one kid. We babysat my 1 year old nephew and 6 year old niece for 5 hours and I was more worn out than a long day at WDW. After dropping them off at my brothers my wife and I joked about how pooped we were just keeping up with them and then we realized that for my brother and his wife, it NEVER ends, and on top of that they have to work and deal with daily life. I seriously dont know how you do it.

I am not a fan of strollers at WDW but I can totally understand a parent just wanting to use one for the sake of keeping the kid from running all over the place. I always tell my brother and sister I will make my kids walk at WDW. They laugh at me. I am starting to understand why.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Parenting is a profound and deeply personal experience. It's the single most important thing most people will ever do in their lifetime. So naturally there is resistance when someone offers unsolicited advice on parenting. Especially when the person offering said advice has no parenting experience.

Yeah, that's what I mean... people have a 'personal stake' in their parenting opinion.. it's not objective. So people are naturally more defensive when people start sharing opinions that may overlap with outcomes or choices you have made as part of your parenting style.

The same analogies play in business as well (these scenarios are near identical.. you may just not see it :) ). If you go in and start telling a business owner how their business should be ran.. and you've got no actual insight into THEIR specifics or what they have or have not tried... you're going to rub the business owner the wrong way and they are going to get defensive. Again, it's not that it's "parenting vs business" but that you are challenging THEIR choices without an understanding of THEIR situation.

Debating theme parks between fans doesn't have the same conflict because it's not Bob Iger himself you are debating with.. just another fan. There is no personal attachment or criticism involved.

Always get to the root problem :) And here the root cause is the challenging of someone's personal choices from another that someone feels is uniformed or unqualified to judge.

Your initial post suggested we should apply the same reasoning to businesses. That anyone without direct experience operating a theme park or resort should not voice their opinions on this subject. But the two subjects are not equivalent.

It was more in jest.. to highlight exactly what I just outlined above. If you were to disallow opinions from unqualified sources... well most of the posts here would disappear as few if any are qualified to run a theme park. Your actual concern is 'dont tell me how to parent when you don't have the background or experience as it relates to MY situation'.

and I agree in that sense that there have been lots of unqualified opinions shared on the parenting topic :) They tend to be easy to ID... the opinions that gravitate to the extremes (watch your kid every second...) typically are the ones with limited or no experience. Because the experienced ones know just how unpractical the statements are and wouldn't project such fallacies.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I think the stroller issue has implications beyond just parenting. As has been discussed, it highlights a marked shift in who Disney is trying to attract. I want to say it was Life Magazine that, at the end of an article in the early 60s about Disneyland joked about how maybe one day somebody will build a Disneyland for kids. That quip makes no sense anymore.

I also think the strollers reflect on how there has been this shift to a backpacking style of mobility. We bring a lot of junk around with us, and this isn't just the stereotypes of parents bringing the whole playroom with them.
 
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