Something is wrong, and I wish it was better

[Legalos]

Hi everyone,
I don't know if I'm completely oblivious or what seeing that I'm only 16, but for about a year now, I've been concerned. Something really does bother me, and makes me wonder about society today. I recently just finished reading a book called Fahrenheit 451, which was a book written by Ray Bradbury back in the 50s, I believe. The book showcases a strange society that resembles the one of today, in a very discomforting way; censorship, dumbing down of things, things becoming generic, shortage of quality in things, and certain technological advancements etc.. Reading this book, going to Epcot, and seeing vintage videos of EPCOT center on youtube, has got me really thinking, to the point where I get real upset :brick:. What if I say, maybe Disney didn't change EPCOT center all by itself, maybe society helped changed it. Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? I mean by all means I enjoy Mission: Space, and Test Track, but couldn't they keep some of the more inspirational EPCOT rides like Horizons? Rides like that could of help inspire many generations of people. It would be nice to see Mission: Space and Horizons up and running simultaneously. That would've been an improvement. EPCOT could be better easily. I live in Orlando, and I have annual passes to all the major theme parks, and I can tell you, that Epcot has great potential to be the best to more locals my age (It's already to me, but that's because I know EPCOT). This park means far too much, and Disney doesn't seem to realize it's potential, and it hurts. I understand that society is changing, and Disney needs to change the park, but please don't stray from the park's original message. Please take better care of the dedication to Walt's last dream. Man words can't describe, how I care for Epcot, and how it saddens me deeply to see some of the things that I see there today. It kills me inside every time I see those videos of old Epcot and hear about it's ambitious original duty as a theme park, and seeing all those concept arts. I respect it's change but I wish Disney would do better with these changes in many aspects (The rides, the design and look of future world today etc.). It's truly becoming hard for me to believe that a concept like EPCOT center was created by the same company that broadcasts Hannah Montana, and now the company that broadcasts that crap is slowly depleting Epcot's quality and purpose, instead of harmonizing with today's new thrills and yesterday's inspirational EPCOT.

 

[_Scar]

Walt Disney essentially created EPCOT, and although you may think Walt was nothing like the people at WDC advertising Hannah Montana, Walt did have the Mouseketeers. But that was on a much smaller scale, but still kind of similar lol

Here's my thoughts-
Back in the 60's, technological advances were just starting to take shape and the people noticed and cared. Today, technology is still rapidly advancing but we don't really look forward to it like our past relatives did- maybe only when the next new iPod comes out we do, but that's it.

And since we don't have that craving for the future like we used to, I'm sure this in some way helped change Epcot. I find that the Epcot I know embraces the world around us- not so much how the world will be in 2089.

 

[Legalos]

Walt Disney essentially created EPCOT, and although you may think Walt was nothing like the people at WDC advertising Hannah Montana, Walt did have the Mouseketeers. But that was on a much smaller scale, but still kind of similar lol

Here's my thoughts-
Back in the 60's, technological advances were just starting to take shape and the people noticed and cared. Today, technology is still rapidly advancing but we don't really look forward to it like our past relatives did- maybe only when the next new iPod comes out we do, but that's it.

And since we don't have that craving for the future like we used to, I'm sure this in some way helped change Epcot. I find that the Epcot I know embraces the world around us- not so much how the world will be in 2089.

That's a very interesting perspective, and you do make good points there.

 

[tomm4004]

I agree with you Legalos. I first visited EPCOT at age 23 (not far removed from being a teenager) and was fascinated by rides such as Horizons and World of Motion. They were like science and sci-fi books come to life. A few years later I learned that EPCOT was "boring." This confused me. I realized that what was boring was the people that found EPCOT boring, and not EPCOT itself.

Your problem Legalos is that you mentioned reading a book. You actually read books! I'm afraid this puts you in a different category than those that found EPCOT boring.

 

[EPCOTPluto]

My take to it? We now know more and thus easily take advantage of it. :shrug:

 

[Hakunamatata]

Considering that we live in a society that accepts that its ok to wear your pants down around your knees, places more importance on the car that you drive than the family that you raise, and places god like status on individuals that have few if any moral values, Epcot is what it needs to be to survive.

I miss the EPCOT of old. I miss the Disney of old, but Ive come to accept the fact that until more people who think and believe the way we do stand up and make our voices heard, we are going to continue getting attractions and entertainment that is driven by the current state of society.

 

[maskdesmith]

Legolas, I think what you say is very true. I started going to Epcot when I was 5 or 6, back when there still was a horizons and a world of motion. I just watched a video of horizons the other day, and was amazed at just how good it really was. And the funny thing is, it has aged well, too, because we've accomplished almost nothing of what the ride predicted, so it still pretty much looks like the future. I think Epcot really did use to be inspirational, but somewhere along the line of branding and marketing it lost that. I could imagine a kid wanting to be a marine biologist after being on the old Living Seas, but it seems like the best Epcot can manage to inspire these days is a new clownfish for your tank. Its not that all the new stuff is bad, its just that Epcot used to mean something. I know it inspired me to do what I do.

I read a fairly coherent argument about Epcot somewhere, about how the whole purpose was to make computers less intimidating to people. And if that was the mission, good job guys, because everyone has their iphone in their pocket with enough computing power to probably run the ride they are waiting in line for. And since we accomplished that, Epcot now wanders in a sea of uncertainty, not quite sure what it should do next. I really think that it was more about how science and technology can make the future better (horizons, spaceship earth), and that an awareness of what is around us (the land, the living seas, universe of energy) will help us to make better decisions about our path into the future.

So, if I can do math, and you're 16, did you ever get to go on the old rides? I'm 25 and I think my family started going just in time, only to have my favorite ride demolished :dazzle:

 

[RobGraves]

i posted this on here a few years back.... and its fitting for a repost....
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's try to remember a simple fact... Epcot is a theme park built for one purpose. Sorry, that purpose is not some higher philosophical motive that some want to dream about, but rather, to make money. Any attempt by the consumer to instill some higher motive to the park simply means WDI succeeded in pulling some Disney showmanship to affect the transfer of $$$ from our pockets to theirs. The illusion of Epcot serving some higher purpose, as purported by a vocal few, just shows they "sold" their product very well.

My response:

Wow, see what the product of our jaded, soulless, aimless society is... witness it in its full glory, for this is why the "future" and died.

Walt Disney was the last great futurist. EPCOT in it's original non-theme park form, was a dream/obsession of Walt's... a Utopian society on the bleeding edge of technology with all of its citizens working towards the betterment of the human condition. A city of tomorrow... today.

First though, lets look back at Disneyland. Do you think Walt made Disneyland for the sole purpose of making money? If he did, he would never have built it. Disneyland was first and foremost a realization of walt's own obsessions. It was his Neverland. It was a place where he could have, and share, his idealized america, his vision of the past, his visions of the future, and the flights of fancy that entertained his mind.... and he could drive a train. If he made it to make money he would be like most of Todays Disney upper brass and only go to the parks when forced... not have an apartment there, not buy ice cream for the kids... or even take a few hours working the ice cream cart just so he could see smiles on kids faces. If Disneyland would have been designed to "make money" it would have failed miserably. Did Walt hope it made money, yes... if for nothing else to prove his critics wrong. More importantly though it helped to fund bigger dreams.

The Florida Project was the culmination of those dreams. It was Walt's perfect Utopian (some would say proto-fascist) vision. However... after Walt died, no one knew, no one had the passion to complete those dreams... So, they did the next best thing in their minds... They took the theme park concept and worked it into the EPCOT concept. EPCOT was a theme park that would reflect those Utopian dreams, it would progress the idea of people working together for a better future, rather than resigning themselves to annihilation. EPCOT was intended to teach, and hope that when you left, you took part of that dream with you.

I grew up in central Florida... I grew up at Walt Disney World... but more importantly, much of my dreams were forged at EPCOT. I loved EPCOT, i used to LOVE Horizons, Universe of Energy, World of Motion, The Living Seas, The Land, Imagination... Spaceship Earth... and Yes... Mexico was my favorite thing in world showcase till Maelstrom (being of Norwegian Heritage)... My family ended up going to EPCOT more than the MK when i was groeing up,because i loved it. I used to look forward to my yearly school field trips to EPCOT, even though I was there almost every weekend anyway.. because i got to see different things, i got to share my love with my fellow students...

Well i moved off to Los Angeles... and didn't get to visit EPCOT for a long time....

I returned to Florida this year for one year to handle family issues, and the first thing i did was head to EPCOT ... but it was gone. It was replaced by Epcot. Gone were those dreams... with the exception of SSE... Replaced by Ellen, Replaced by Mission: Space (which while still having a futurist element... lacks the greater part of a soul.. especially in comparison to that which it replaced), Replaced by Test Track (which teaches us nothing about the future, and instead is a giant advertisment for todays cars), Replaced by Nemo (and not the Jules Verne one...and god do i miss the movie from the living seas ), Replaced by Eric Idle... The Land changes i dont mind too much, though i miss the boat ride having a CM. Even SSE is in a state where it is missing half of itself...

I cried. I turned to my wife and said... what happened.

and i think that article "A Happy Accident" sums up my thoughts pretty well... It happened because of you.

It happened because people have no attention spans anymore. It happened because cynicism replaced idealism. It happened because nihilism replaced futurism. When I was a kid we dreamed of flying cars still... todays kid's vision of the future is less Jetson's/Metropolis and more Terminator/Mad Max. It is less Jules Verne and Ray Bradbury and more... well apocalyptic. They are taught there IS NO FUTURE!!! Weather it be Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals telling them "Jesus is coming, you don't need a future beyond that its the end times" or Mass Media telling them the world is going to end by Nuclear Holocaust, Environmental Disaster, Meteor Strike, ETC... ALL THEY HEAR IS "THIS IS THE END." Why would you dream for a future when all you hear is it isn't coming. Hell, we put man on the moon... then spent 25 years not going out of orbit... now kids are told we never landed on the moon on network TV specials.

Your cynicism and jaded response is noted ahead of time.

EPCOT died, not because it was a failure...

but because we are.

 

[jt04]

Hi everyone,
I don't know if I'm completely oblivious or what seeing that I'm only 16, but for about a year now, I've been concerned. Something really does bother me, and makes me wonder about society today. I recently just finished reading a book called Fahrenheit 451, which was a book written by Ray Bradbury back in the 50s, I believe. The book showcases a strange society that resembles the one of today, in a very discomforting way; censorship, dumbing down of things, things becoming generic, shortage of quality in things, and certain technological advancements etc.. Reading this book, going to Epcot, and seeing vintage videos of EPCOT center on youtube, has got me really thinking, to the point where I get real upset :brick:. What if I say, maybe Disney didn't change EPCOT center all by itself, maybe society helped changed it. Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? I mean by all means I enjoy Mission: Space, and Test Track, but couldn't they keep some of the more inspirational EPCOT rides like Horizons? Rides like that could of help inspire many generations of people. It would be nice to see Mission: Space and Horizons up and running simultaneously. That would've been an improvement. EPCOT could be better easily. I live in Orlando, and I have annual passes to all the major theme parks, and I can tell you, that Epcot has great potential to be the best to more locals my age (It's already to me, but that's because I know EPCOT). This park means far too much, and Disney doesn't seem to realize it's potential, and it hurts. I understand that society is changing, and Disney needs to change the park, but please don't stray from the park's original message. Please take better care of the dedication to Walt's last dream. Man words can't describe, how I care for Epcot, and how it saddens me deeply to see some of the things that I see there today. It kills me inside every time I see those videos of old Epcot and hear about it's ambitious original duty as a theme park, and seeing all those concept arts. I respect it's change but I wish Disney would do better with these changes in many aspects (The rides, the design and look of future world today etc.). It's truly becoming hard for me to believe that a concept like EPCOT center was created by the same company that broadcasts Hannah Montana, and now the company that broadcasts that crap is slowly depleting Epcot's quality and purpose, instead of harmonizing with today's new thrills and yesterday's inspirational EPCOT.

Sooner or later a generation of youth will come along that rebels against creeping mediocrity. Yes, teenage rebellion can save a society. Get a great education (not a brainwashing) and use that to create excellence. One person setting the example can make a difference. By the way, you are not alone in your outlook. Epcot Explorer is on the same path.

Great thread! :sohappy:

 

[tomm4004]

I could imagine a kid wanting to be a marine biologist after being on the old Living Seas, but it seems like the best Epcot can manage to inspire these days is a new clownfish for your tank.

Brilliant. This pretty much sums it up.

You know, I rode the new Living Seas, and I tried to convince myself that it was good, but deep down I knew it was pathetic.

 

[Master Yoda]

To answer your question...Yes. society did change Epcot, but this is noting unique. Society changes every single business, well every single successful one that is. In a perfect world where profit does not matter and a company can do what they want with no threat of not being able to pay the staff, utilities, etc then you could have M:S running right next door to Horizons. But the reality is Disney is accountable only to it's shareholders. If Disney does not turn a profit they will cease to exist. They simply can not keep under performing attractions open and Horizons was an under performing attraction. And again this is nothing new. Walt, the man himself, closed and changed under performing attractions.

 

[MysticOrient]

Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? ... I respect its change but I wish Disney would do better with these changes in many aspects (The rides, the design and look of future world today etc.). It's truly becoming hard for me to believe that a concept like EPCOT center was created by the same company that broadcasts Hannah Montana, and now the company that broadcasts that crap is slowly depleting Epcot's quality and purpose, instead of harmonizing with today's new thrills and yesterday's inspirational EPCOT.

I completely agree with your thread and with others said (for example) The Living Seas possibly inspiring someone to become a marine biologist. Disney seems to have gone to the extreme regarding their characters and branding. Sure, the original rides at DL and MK were character-based, but they also told a story. What "story" does "Finding Nemo" tell in "The Living Seas"? What "story" does Kim Possible tell in Future World? They're just dumping characters in for character sake and that's so far off the original mark, it's pathetic.

What's next? "Cars" cars in Test Track?

Oh, and regarding your comment:

Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? ​

Trust me... it's not just "kids" who feel this way. The sad truth is that we as a society, I think, have become so attention-deficit that everyone needs fast, flashy crap rather than the slow story-telling feel to things. Look at some of the old sitcoms ("I Love Lucy", for example) and watch the time they took to tell their story or set up a joke. It wasn't an "in your face" flash of a joke... it took time to play out and it's hysterical -- even still today. My 7-year old daughter loves it.

As a side question to the group, do you think Disney exec's read threads and posts like these?

Thanks for a great thread!

Judy

 

[Master Yoda]

I completely agree with your thread and with others said (for example) The Living Seas possibly inspiring someone to become a marine biologist. Disney seems to have gone to the extreme regarding their characters and branding. Sure, the original rides at DL and MK were character-based, but they also told a story. What "story" does "Finding Nemo" tell in "The Living Seas"? What "story" does Kim Possible tell in Future World? They're just dumping characters in for character sake and that's so far off the original mark, it's pathetic.

What's next? "Cars" cars in Test Track?

Oh, and regarding your comment:

Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? ​

Trust me... it's not just "kids" who feel this way. The sad truth is that we as a society, I think, have become so attention-deficit that everyone needs fast, flashy crap rather than the slow story-telling feel to things. Look at some of the old sitcoms ("I Love Lucy", for example) and watch the time they took to tell their story or set up a joke. It wasn't an "in your face" flash of a joke... it took time to play out and it's hysterical -- even still today. My 7-year old daughter loves it.

As a side question to the group, do you think Disney exec's read threads and posts like these?

Thanks for a great thread!

Judy

Disney does monitor forums like this. As to what gets back to the big wigs and if they pay attention to any of it is anyone's guess.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Disney does monitor forums like this..

Which explains why I never get offers or room upgrades. Bar stewards

 

[Master Yoda]

Which explains why I never get offers or room upgrades. Bar stewards

I think they have your picture next to mine in every WDW resort break room with the a caption reading "Do not offer upgrades to these men":lol:

 

[wm49rs]

I think they have your picture next to mine in every WDW resort break room with the a caption reading "Do not offer upgrades to these men":lol:

My poster reads "Do not offer beer to this man." Which is odd because I'm a vodka drinker.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Oooh, I'm late! :lol:

Sooner or later a generation of youth will come along that rebels against creeping mediocrity. Yes, teenage rebellion can save a society. Get a great education (not a brainwashing) and use that to create excellence. One person setting the example can make a difference. By the way, you are not alone in your outlook. Epcot Explorer is on the same path.

Great thread! :sohappy:

Well, thank you.


And Legalos, I agree with you in full. EPCOT has lost much of it's unique thematic sense in place for a easier, less challenging look at the world we know. While it really once was "Future World", that actually showcased and developed future technology and told how it would impact our lives, it's now very desensitized to such worldly views, and seems just to focus on modern things..which, honestly, is mundane and could be addressed in other areas. This is becuase of society, you are right, and becyuase of what RobGraves quoted. It's easier to show, and it's easier for people to understand and thus, buy into when they go to EPCOT.

Does that make it right? Absolutely not. Disney has always been (Don't know about that now... sadly..) the company in entertainment to push the boundaries for unique and thrilling entertainment.

Sooner or later, though, as other posters have said, there will be a change back to this. Only thing possible, I think. How long can Disney go doing the same things? Pirates, Pixie dust and Princesses will never go out of style, that is true, but there will be a call for more unique offerings, seeing that Disney is becoming more acesable. One might say that we are on the cusp of it now, but we shall see.

 

[SMRT-1]

it's great to read something like this...even the younger generation gets it. we are with you man!

 

[Thurp]

You may be 16, but you are already having great insights, making great arguments, and you can write better than 99% of people the same age.

You have a bright future ahead of you. Maybe you can help change EPCOT.

 

[Phonedave]

I agree with you Legalos. I first visited EPCOT at age 23 (not far removed from being a teenager) and was fascinated by rides such as Horizons and World of Motion. They were like science and sci-fi books come to life. A few years later I learned that EPCOT was "boring." This confused me. I realized that what was boring was the people that found EPCOT boring, and not EPCOT itself.

Your problem Legalos is that you mentioned reading a book. You actually read books! I'm afraid this puts you in a different category than those that found EPCOT boring.

Very Zen of you.

EPCOT is a thing, it in and of itself it is not boring or exciting, it simply is.

It is those attachments that your mind makes to these "things" that create the perception of boing or exciting (or fun, or sad, or infuriating, or joyfull, or any other emotion).

Many people have very strong attachement to things as boring. Many people also want to feel safe in todays society. Safety defined as the absence of risk. Be told what to think, what to wear, what to buy, what to listen to. Have others check your security, take care of your health, and program your life. Nice, warm, safe, and about as interesting as room temperature rice gruel.

Once you decouple the need for safety (real or perceived) from events (things) then all of sudden new events are reduced to just that - events. They are not scary, dangerous, boring, tedious, or otherwise unplesant - they just are.

-dave