Snow White's Scary Adventures Vs. Snow White's Enchanted Wish

[Animaniac93-98]

I blame the Disney Princess product line for created and sustaining an image of "Disney Snow White" that is visually and tonally far removed from the actual movie (the same could be said of all the Disney Princess movies, but Snow White, Aladdin and Sleeping Beauty suffer the most IMO).

 

[Professortango1]

To a point I agree with this, but the designers of the 83 version specifically put in the dungeon area in the queue and changed the name and thought that was enough to solve the problem (presumably, a problem that they knew already existed if they needed to make these changes). Clearly it was not.

Obviously there are a lot of people that are morons and quickly jump to the wrong conclusions based on marketing and/or false memories of what each film contains, but as I said in a previous post when this change was announced: Snow White, whether or not Scary was in the name, had the greatest gulf of any Disney attraction between what people expected the ride to be and what it actually was. And that was a constant throughout that attraction's existence.

Disney's certainly not faultless here in the way it's marketed the film, but if guests are having the same issue for 60+ years and there was no sign of it ending, I understand why they made the choice they did to change the focus of the ride. And other than people on here, who are inherently biased to be suspicious of all change-for valid reasons in many instances, to be clear-I'm not sure the 83 version really worked for most of the public in the way it was supposed to.

And this isn't something like the Pirates auction or the conclusion of the HM stretching room scene, where it was only recently, if at all, people started loudly voicing objections to the scenes in question. This is something that dogged the attraction for its entire existence.

If the newer version of the ride isn't for everyone, that's fair. But there's a reason they made the changes, and I don't recall anyone singing its praises on here all that much (other than George Lucas on a Bench) before they did its most recent update, which implies to me that a lot of the loudest feelings about the most recent version come from people who didn't care all that much about the 83 version of the ride.

I think the 83 attraction always got plenty of love. It was always my #3 for Fantasyland rides behind Toad and Pinocchio. The new version is a tonal mess for me, so it falls to Peter Pan status of great moments and botched overall storytelling.

 

[PiratesMansion]

I think the 83 attraction always got plenty of love. It was always my #3 for Fantasyland rides behind Toad and Pinocchio. The new version is a tonal mess for me, so it falls to Peter Pan status of great moments and botched overall storytelling.

And I suppose my question is this: apart from individual testimonials, where is the evidence for that? Perhaps this is both of us seeing what we want to see, but I remember mixed to negative views of the ride being the general rule, with few arguing that it was doing anything truly exceptional apart from the transformation scene and everpresent complaints about the scare factor or the ending. You could argue that with the lack of ending, the 83 version also suffered from botched storytelling.

I will agree with you about Peter Pan, though. It does shift abruptly from enjoying flying through London and above Neverland to "let's shove in as much of the plot as we can into the last third of the ride," and that is frequently underdiscussed or just plain goes unnoticed by many.

 

[Professortango1]

And I suppose my question is this: apart from individual testimonials, where is the evidence for that? Perhaps this is both of us seeing what we want to see, but I remember mixed to negative views of the ride being the general rule, with few arguing that it was doing anything truly exceptional apart from the transformation scene and everpresent complaints about the scare factor or the ending. You could argue that with the lack of ending, the 83 version also suffered from botched storytelling.

I will agree with you about Peter Pan, though. It does shift abruptly from enjoying flying through London and above Neverland to "let's shove in as much of the plot as we can into the last third of the ride," and that is frequently underdiscussed or just plain goes unnoticed by many.

The 83 version has an ending; the witch who's been terrorizing us is killed. Adding the mural is what made it feel jarring because it was putting a hat on a hat.

Now we have the last two scenes devoted to a brand new character they never established kissing Snow White. There's zero about a Prince or looking for love beforehand, but now the last 1/4 of the ride is thrust in that direction.

 

[mickEblu]

To a point I agree with this, but the designers of the 83 version specifically put in the dungeon area in the queue and changed the name and thought that was enough to solve the problem (presumably, a problem that they knew already existed if they needed to make these changes). Clearly it was not.

Obviously there are a lot of people that are morons and quickly jump to the wrong conclusions based on marketing and/or false memories of what each film contains, but as I said in a previous post when this change was announced: Snow White, whether or not Scary was in the name, had the greatest gulf of any Disney attraction between what people expected the ride to be and what it actually was. And that was a constant throughout that attraction's existence.

Disney's certainly not faultless here in the way it's marketed the film, but if guests are having the same issue for 60+ years and there was no sign of it ending, I understand why they made the choice they did to change the focus of the ride. And other than people on here, who are inherently biased to be suspicious of all change-for valid reasons in many instances, to be clear-I'm not sure the 83 version really worked for most of the public in the way it was supposed to.

And this isn't something like the Pirates auction or the conclusion of the HM stretching room scene, where it was only recently, if at all, people started loudly voicing objections to the scenes in question. This is something that dogged the attraction for its entire existence.

If the newer version of the ride isn't for everyone, that's fair. But there's a reason they made the changes, and I don't recall anyone singing its praises on here all that much (other than George Lucas on a Bench) before they did its most recent update, which implies to me that a lot of the loudest feelings about the most recent version come from people who didn't care all that much about the 83 version of the ride.

I’m not convinced people with young kids weren’t riding Snow White’s Scary Adventures strictly because it was scary. I think there were a few things at play. First, it was (and still is) the second weakest of the dark rides in Fantasyland. A lot of iconic milestone rides like Dumbo and better dark rides to compete with. I think there is just a little more incentive to ride now for most people.

More kids rode the Haunted Mansion on any given day than Snow White’s Scary Adventures and that’s because the parents find Haunted Mansion to be worth their time. Meaning parents are willing to scare their kids a little bit if there is enough upside. In another world I think you would have seen longer lines for a 3 + minute Snow Whites Scary Adventures ride that showcased more of the stuff people love about the film in addition to all the scary stuff.

These days the line hovers around 15-20 minutes when in the past it was more like 5-10. I don’t think it’s because it’s less scary. I think it’s because they included more of the stuff from the movie that resonates emotionally even if it came at the cost of a more cohesive experience. The ride really isn’t much less scary. The scariest parts of the ride are still there. I think with Scary Adventures there just wasn’t enough of the stuff people wanted or expected from the movie to make it enough of a fulfilling experience to prioritize it in a sea of other Fantasyland rides of similar scope.

 

[PiratesMansion]

The 83 version has an ending; the witch who's been terrorizing us is killed. Adding the mural is what made it feel jarring because it was putting a hat on a hat.

Now we have the last two scenes devoted to a brand new character they never established kissing Snow White. There's zero about a Prince or looking for love beforehand, but now the last 1/4 of the ride is thrust in that direction.

Even if the sign wasn't there, I don't think that "the villain dies, please step out to your left" was necessarily a satisfying ending for most people either.

RE the last two scenes: Except that Snow White is one of the most well-known and profitable movies of all time.

People may not remember all of it, but they know who the prince is. They don't need to set up the Prince-heck, they barely did in the actual movie. Riders are able to gather that she's fallen in love with someone and that's that, happily ever after. It may not be your preference, but I think it is unambiguously clearer to the audience compared to what was there before.

I’m not convinced people with young kids weren’t riding Snow White’s Scary Adventures strictly because it was scary. I think there were a few things at play. First, it was (and still is) the second weakest of the dark rides in Fantasyland. A lot of iconic milestone rides like Dumbo and better dark rides to compete with. I think there is just a little more incentive to ride now for most people.

Fair.

More kids rode the Haunted Mansion on any given day than Snow White’s Scary Adventures and that’s because the parents find Haunted Mansion to be worth their time. Meaning parents are willing to scare their kids a little bit if there is enough upside. In another world I think you would have seen longer lines for a 3 + minute Snow Whites Scary Adventures ride that showcased more of the stuff people love about the film in addition to all the scary stuff.

These days the line hovers around 15-20 minutes when in the past it was more like 5-10. I don’t think it’s because it’s less scary. I think it’s because they included more of the stuff from the movie that resonates emotionally even if it came at the cost of a more cohesive experience. The ride really isn’t much less scary. The scariest parts of the ride are still there. I think with Scary Adventures there just wasn’t enough of the stuff people wanted or expected from the movie to make it enough of a fulfilling experience to prioritize it in a sea of other Fantasyland rides of similar scope.

Right, so what you're basically saying is that the ride is more successful, at least for most people, because it better fits with what people remember about the film than the old version did? Something I'm inclined to agree with.

 

[mickEblu]

Even if the sign wasn't there, I don't think that "the villain dies, please step out to your left" was necessarily a satisfying ending for most people either.

RE the last two scenes: Except that Snow White is one of the most well-known and profitable movies of all time.

People may not remember all of it, but they know who the prince is. They don't need to set up the Prince-heck, they barely did in the actual movie. Riders are able to gather that she's fallen in love with someone and that's that, happily ever after. It may not be your preference, but I think it is unambiguously clearer to the audience compared to what was there before.

Fair.

Right, so what you're basically saying is that the ride is more successful, at least for most people, because it better fits with what people remember about the film than the old version did? Something I'm inclined to agree with.

Yeah that’s what I’m saying but more so trying to highlight its the emotional connection with those new scenes they added while also trying to dispel the notion that Snow White being “scary” was the main/ only reason it had such short wait times. The new version hasn’t moved in the Peking order of FL rides. It’s just outperforming its old self even though it’s nearly as scary as it’s always been. It’s a less cohesive experience now but they added a few scenes (as well as some neat practical effects) that resonate more with guests all leading to a needle that has moved ever so slightly.

If anything I’d say just the fact that the ride had “scary” in its title kept some overprotective parents away more than the actual experience itself.

 

[Professortango1]

Even if the sign wasn't there, I don't think that "the villain dies, please step out to your left" was necessarily a satisfying ending for most people either.

RE the last two scenes: Except that Snow White is one of the most well-known and profitable movies of all time.

People may not remember all of it, but they know who the prince is. They don't need to set up the Prince-heck, they barely did in the actual movie. Riders are able to gather that she's fallen in love with someone and that's that, happily ever after. It may not be your preference, but I think it is unambiguously clearer to the audience compared to what was there before.

Fair.

Right, so what you're basically saying is that the ride is more successful, at least for most people, because it better fits with what people remember about the film than the old version did? Something I'm inclined to agree with.

The ride was about encountering the Witch and her pursuing you. Her death is a natural ending of that story.

The imagineers used to recognize that a ride was it's own medium and not to try and recreate the story. That's why Pinocchio's ride ends with him as a puppet, it's why Alice doesn't end with Alice waking up. It's why Roger Rabbit doesn't have Eddie Valiant show up at the end.

If they want to make the ride about finding a Prince, move the cabin scene to later and start us with the wishing well, cut out the witch's transformation and dungeon. Not a very compelling ride, but at least it would have a through line. Building the Witch throughout and then quickly killing her feels like the Ursula death in Voyage of the Little Mermaid, except that attraction doesn't build up Ursula throughout the ride.

 

[PiratesMansion]

The ride was about encountering the Witch and her pursuing you. Her death is a natural ending of that story.

The imagineers used to recognize that a ride was it's own medium and not to try and recreate the story. That's why Pinocchio's ride ends with him as a puppet, it's why Alice doesn't end with Alice waking up. It's why Roger Rabbit doesn't have Eddie Valiant show up at the end.

If they want to make the ride about finding a Prince, move the cabin scene to later and start us with the wishing well, cut out the witch's transformation and dungeon. Not a very compelling ride, but at least it would have a through line. Building the Witch throughout and then quickly killing her feels like the Ursula death in Voyage of the Little Mermaid, except that attraction doesn't build up Ursula throughout the ride.

I'm not arguing that the ride needs to tell a story exactly like the film. I'm just saying that the ending as it existed in the 83 version was too abrupt to feel like it provided a sense of closure for most people. It's not new information that many people found the ending of the 83 version abrupt.

Toad is a helpful contrast here because if Toad was exactly like SWSA, it would have ended at the train crash. Technically it could be seen as a resolution of the conflict (you're a bad driver, you face the consequence of dying in a train crash, the end). But by including one more scene, it better lands with the rider that they're experiencing a resolution, which is why the Hell ending scene is satisfying and the witch dying in SWSA, for many people, was not satisfying. By adding in a happy ending, the new Snow White ride gives a better, more satisfying ending scene that isn't nearly as abrupt, which frankly is better storytelling.

Film and rides may be different mediums, but that doesn't mean there's NO storytelling overlap whatsoever. Most films that involve, say, a character being pursued by another don't typically cut to credits immediately after the pursuer is finally dealt with (a la SWSA); usually there's about a five-ten minute stretch that brings the story to a more graceful conclusion (a la SWEW). One of those storytelling strategies is inherently going to be more satisfying to most people than the other, and it's not the version employed by the 83 ride.

 

[Professortango1]

I'm not arguing that the ride needs to tell a story exactly like the film. I'm just saying that the ending as it existed in the 83 version was too abrupt to feel like it provided a sense of closure for most people. It's not new information that many people found the ending of the 83 version abrupt.

Toad is a helpful contrast here because if Toad was exactly like SWSA, it would have ended at the train crash. Technically it could be seen as a resolution of the conflict (you're a bad driver, you face the consequence of dying in a train crash, the end). But by including one more scene, it better lands with the rider that they're experiencing a resolution, which is why the Hell ending scene is satisfying and the witch dying in SWSA, for many people, was not satisfying. By adding in a happy ending, the new Snow White ride gives a better, more satisfying ending scene that isn't nearly as abrupt, which frankly is better storytelling.

Film and rides may be different mediums, but that doesn't mean there's NO storytelling overlap whatsoever. Most films that involve, say, a character being pursued by another don't typically cut to credits immediately after the pursuer is finally dealt with (a la SWSA); usually there's about a five-ten minute stretch that brings the story to a more graceful conclusion (a la SWEW). One of those storytelling strategies is inherently going to be more satisfying to most people than the other, and it's not the version employed by the 83 ride.

Toad ends in Hell because it's meant as a fever dream or nightmare. It goes to absurdity. That's the fun.

And the new ending of Snow White is more abrupt .the witch death is even faster now, which is incredibly abrupt. Then we get an epilogue for two scenes that isn't tied to the rest of the experience. That's pretty abrupt.

It would be like replacing the "In Summer" scene from FEA with Hans being tied up with a triumphant Anna behind him. Sure, we know who Hans, but the ride isn't about him or their relationship. Snow White's Enchanted Wish is not about Snow White nor her wish.

Almost half of the ride is still devoted to the Witch/Evil Queen and the rest of the Dwarves. Her character and her wishes don't factor into the attraction until the epilogue.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Toad ends in Hell because it's meant as a fever dream or nightmare. It goes to absurdity. That's the fun.

And the new ending of Snow White is more abrupt .the witch death is even faster now, which is incredibly abrupt. Then we get an epilogue for two scenes that isn't tied to the rest of the experience. That's pretty abrupt.

It would be like replacing the "In Summer" scene from FEA with Hans being tied up with a triumphant Anna behind him. Sure, we know who Hans, but the ride isn't about him or their relationship. Snow White's Enchanted Wish is not about Snow White nor her wish.

Almost half of the ride is still devoted to the Witch/Evil Queen and the rest of the Dwarves. Her character and her wishes don't factor into the attraction until the epilogue.

Yes, but Hell also helps make the ending of Toad feel like you had some sense of payoff, some sense of falling action. 83 SW didn't have that. Perhaps because in Toad, we never actually see Toad, therefore we are basically Toad, and so when he goes to Hell, it's like we *also* are going to hell for our bad driving. *We* face consequences. Whereas in 83 SWSA, we had nothing to do with the Witch's death, really. We were menaced by her, but nothing we did resulted in her death, all of which made the attraction seem inconsistent and unsatisfying. We have less personal interaction with the witch in the newest version (undoubtedly in an attempt to make the attraction less scary), and so it's not as jarring when she incidentally dies and we have nothing to do with it.

What's her Enchanted Wish? For the one she loves to find her. So in that sense, ending with the prince doesn't just fit the film, it also fits the ride. Maybe they could have introduced the Prince there, but then we would have either had static figures talking a mile a minute to explain things and then people would have complained about that too, and again, the prince is barely in the film (or an exciting presence there) anyway. The Frozen comparison doesn't really hold water-yes, Frozen's been around a decade and is well known and popular. Snow White has been around and popular for more than 80 years. That's considerable more staying power and pop culture osmosis.

And the counterpoint to your last paragraph: in the previous version not all of the attraction was devoted to her Scary Adventures, so if that's the criteria we're going by, that we're going to rigorously weld the attraction's name and use it to cudgel away every moment that doesn't fit the theme, than the 83 version isn't perfect either. It's less about "this is literally what the attraction will focus on the entire time" and more about the general tone of the attraction and what they want people to take from it. Enchanted Wish may not describe the entire experience, but it gets across to the guest that it has a happier ending and overall tone than its former counterpart.

Maybe it would be easier to agree that every version of the Snow White attraction has been flawed in its own way and that there hasn't been a single version that has done everything perfectly. Overall, of the ones I have experienced, I find the least overall fault with the current DL version, and judging by the poll results, I'm actually not in the minority on this.

 

[WaltWiz1901]

The imagineers used to recognize that a ride was it's own medium and not to try and recreate the story. That's why Pinocchio's ride ends with him as a puppet[...]

Except Daring Journey follows its source film's plot pretty closely (moreso than any of its neighbors do to theirs), so altering the ending beat like that feels more like a last-minute realization than altering it for the sake of making a better ride.

 

[Professortango1]

Except Daring Journey follows its source film's plot pretty closely (moreso than any of its neighbors do to theirs), so altering the ending beat like that feels more like a last-minute realization than altering it for the sake of making a better ride.

The ride isn't presented as a version of the film though. We don't see him being created or bonding with Geppetto or being inside Monstro. It is about the quick thrill of running away from home and realizing how it feels to be scared and alone and trying desperately to return home.

Scary Adventures - A thrilling chase sequence
Pinocchio - The experience of leaving home for the first time
Peter Pan's Flight - The dreamlike sensation of flying
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride - A fun out-of-control fever dream
Alice in Wonderland - The sensation of exploring a new world

 

[Too Many Hats]

Some scattered thoughts on SWSA/SWEW:

• Parents complained about SWSA for decades. It had to change.
• Maybe my expectations are too low, but the redo could've been so, so much worse.
• SWEW is really not that different than SWSA. It's really only the last 30 seconds that are meaningfully different.
• I really do miss the spooky trees and the crocodiles. But IMO the new ending is more satisfying, and the attraction is now more well-rounded.
• I strongly prefer the new mine scenes. WDI knocked that section out of the park.
• Wish they could've kept at least one of the chained skeletons.
• There's some bad/awkward staging in SWEW, for sure. I agree with whoever mentioned the barrels on the staircase in the opening scene. I chalk this up to the overlay being underfunded.
• The projections bring the attraction to life / into the 21st century.

 

[mickEblu]

The imagineers used to recognize that a ride was it's own medium and not to try and recreate the story.

Indeed. I think if all comes down to execution though. Not making it feel passive. Not going in book report order but more hitting story beats and songs. I don’t think anybody wants a passive book report ride but I do think people want to see their favorite things and hear their favorite songs from the movie. That more than any other FL dark ride is what was missing from Snow White and I think why it was not the most popular. More because what wasn’t in there and less because what was in there.

Don’t get me wrong I never had an issue with it but it was also never my favorite. I don’t think I ever took the time to pinpoint why that was but I’ve come to that realization as we’ve talked about the subject. Hate what they did to the dungeon and some of the exterior. I can also recognize that it’s a much less cohesive experience but I’d be lying if I said I don’t feel slightly more positive about the ride experience than I did before. The new mine scene and ending are great. They just really need to fix that Snow White mirror effect where the Witch’s boat was. Just terrible and lazy.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Some scattered thoughts on SWSA/SWEW:

• Parents complained about SWSA for decades. It had to change.
• Maybe my expectations are too low, but the redo could've been so, so much worse.
• SWEW is really not that different than SWSA. It's really only the last 30 seconds that are meaningfully different.
• I really do miss the spooky trees and the crocodiles. But IMO the new ending is more satisfying, and the attraction is now more well-rounded.
• I strongly prefer the new mine scenes. WDI knocked that section out of the park.
• Wish they could've kept at least one of the chained skeletons.
• There's some bad/awkward staging in SWEW, for sure. I agree with whoever mentioned the barrels on the staircase in the opening scene. I chalk this up to the overlay being underfunded.
• The projections bring the attraction to life / into the 21st century.

^This generally sums things up pretty well. The other thing to note is that if the Imagineers had their way some of the removed elements would have remained and some of the new things paced better, but they were building a ship in a bottle on a limited budget (and during the Pandemic - much of the work on this was done remotely). The building existed, as did the ride track, and there wasn't the budget to make either bigger.

The fact that the Dwarfs still point to the Witch atop the hill in a new, truncated version of the scene is the result of them wanting to keep that beat in the attraction. Unfortunately, moving the existing scene wasn't feasible, and keeping it where it was would have defeated one of the main purposes of the refurb.

 

[Professortango1]

^This generally sums things up pretty well. The other thing to note is that if the Imagineers had their way some of the removed elements would have remained and some of the new things paced better, but they were building a ship in a bottle on a limited budget (and during the Pandemic - much of the work on this was done remotely). The building existed, as did the ride track, and there wasn't the budget to make either bigger.

The fact that the Dwarfs still point to the Witch atop the hill in a new, truncated version of the scene is the result of them wanting to keep that beat in the attraction. Unfortunately, moving the existing scene wasn't feasible, and keeping it where it was would have defeated one of the main purposes of the refurb.

If they wanted to have it be about her wish, then the first Dwarf scene should have been her wishing for a prince while the Queen peered from a window behind her. Mine is her journey through the scary woods. Journey into the castle would be High-Ho! Witch reveal/dungeon be a new version of the cottage scene with the dwarves, Witch's death scene be changed to the Hag offering Snow the apple (could have had a cool effect to have the cottage window showing the reflection of the Queen behind the Hag.) Then the last two scenes as staged currently.

THAT is a redo of Snow White into a lighter and cohesive theme. Wants a prince, chased away, discovering friends, evil finds her, Prince saves her. She got her wish.

What we got was ham-fisted and tried to have the best of both worlds, creating a messy unfocused attraction with an even more abrupt ending.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

If they wanted to have it be about her wish, then the first Dwarf scene should have been her wishing for a prince while the Queen peered from a window behind her. Mine is her journey through the scary woods. Journey into the castle would be High-Ho! Witch reveal/dungeon be a new version of the cottage scene with the dwarves, Witch's death scene be changed to the Hag offering Snow the apple (could have had a cool effect to have the cottage window showing the reflection of the Queen behind the Hag.) Then the last two scenes as staged currently.

THAT is a redo of Snow White into a lighter and cohesive theme. Wants a prince, chased away, discovering friends, evil finds her, Prince saves her. She got her wish.

What we got was ham-fisted and tried to have the best of both worlds, creating a messy unfocused attraction with an even more abrupt ending.

Sure, but remember, the goal was less making the ride about her wish and more renewing the existing ride's lease on life for another 30 years or so, while attempting to fix it's single largest headache - that darn abrupt ending that didn't work for the target audience.

Honestly, when you remember that Snow White is currently Disneyland Park's only Princess ride it almost feels like they showed some decent restraint. They could have stripped the ride of all its spooky influence and turned it into a total Disney Princess confection. Not that I think their budget would have covered it. If I recall correctly, everything that was done to turn Scary Adventures into Enchanted Wish was done for less than a Million.

I still lament that WDW completely lost its Snow White Dark Ride, which could also have really benefited from a genuine overhaul. In my dreams they might have even built a new Snow White Dark Ride that wove in, out, and under the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, giving you a gentle Snow White and Queen-centric attraction option or a more rollicking Seven Dwarfs-led ride to choose from. But then, in my dreams there are no budgets.

 

[Okee68]

In an ideal world with unlimited space and resources, there would be a section of Fantasyland dedicated entirely to villains that the Snow White ride would be moved to, whereupon it would be rebranded as a wholly Witch-centric and overtly scary experience, with Snow White's name and likeness taken out of the equation completely. Imagine the wonderfully deranged 1971 ride with queue theming and advertising that actually matches the content of the attraction.

Actually, isn't a villain-themed area going into one of the parks at some point? I haven't kept up with anything in eons, so I really have no idea.