Snow White's Scary Adventures Vs. Snow White's Enchanted Wish

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Build a new multi-level Pan where the skyway was. Use the old Pan space for another dark ride. Maybe one of the ones originally thought of for the Magic Kingdom that were dropped in favor of clones of the Anaheim originals.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

Build a new multi-level Pan where the skyway was. Use the old Pan space for another dark ride. Maybe one of the ones originally thought of for the Magic Kingdom that were dropped in favor of clones of the Anaheim originals.

Or a second track for Toad perhaps.

Now that'll never happen.

 

[Professortango1]

Now that Snow White has been gutted, maybe they can turn Peter Pan into a Sleepy Hollow attraction with Peter moving to an E-ticket experience. This way Ichabod and Mr Toad can be neighbors. And yes, I know Sleepy Hollow is set in New York, but I don't think the 1700's aesthetic would seem out of place next to Snow White, Mr Toad, and Pinocchio.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

In all seriousness, I've always had the feeling Toad's days are numbered. It's in prime real estate in the center of the park based on an old, relatively obscure Disney film that has basically zero cultural power with mainstream audiences anymore. It just wouldn't surprise me to see it gone in the near future. But what do I know.

Luckily, Toad is a little bit painted into a corner - the show building is *SO* small, and it's nestled weirdly under Alice in Wonderland. That the show consists almost exclusively of painted flats isn't an accident - it frees up a ton of room for the ride path that would otherwise go to dimensional show elements. The Toad vehicles are tiny and nimble, able to take tight turns and therefore navigate the compact ride path in that shoebox of a building.

The second you tear out Toad you throw Alice in Wonderland a bit into tumult and separately confront the fact that there's simply nothing *interesting* that can be done in that space that would meet today's standards. I don't even mean in terms of codes - want to replace Toad with, say, Frozen? Better make a bigger ride vehicle to handle demand . . . and give space over to dimensional figures and show sets . . . leaving you with about 30 seconds of ride time before there's nowhere left to go. Not to mention that you'd need more queue space for any property more popular than Toad. Having the line spill out into the Fantasyland walkway isn't really appealing operationally.

By that point you're ripping out a cult classic that carries it's weight basically fine and makes the most out of a cupboard-under-the-stairs of a building, and getting almost nothing worthwhile in return. Any new ride in the Toad building would be shorter, less efficient, have less to look at, AND come at the expense of a dark-horse opening-day Disneyland classic. Imagine Disney today saying "Hey, we're putting Beauty and the Beast in Mr. Toad!" - the guest expectation for that property will *never* be met by anything that fits in the Toad facility. And if you're putting in a property of mid-level interest, well . . . Disney doesn't even do that anymore, but you might as well leave Toad at that point anyway. You're better off not messing with a good thing.

I suspect they're eager to maximize Toad for what it is and ensure that it continues to pull its weight ad-infinitum, but it is kind of a weird artifact from a bygone time that, lucky for us who love it, doesn't actually serve Disney to remove. I feel like they'd sooner turn Toad into a shop then make a real pass at putting a new ride in there. Though I shouldn't give them ideas.

Hopefully they just look and offer it a healthy but restrained plussing to keep its meager queue filled and guest surveys positive, allowing it to careen wildly into the next half-century.

 

[truecoat]

I've seen many angry posts about Splash Mountain changing, TOT changing, changes made to Pirates etc. I've been okay with all of those but if they take out Toad, I may join the chorus of complainers I roll my eyes at.

 

[DavidDL]

The only reason I could ever see them removing Toad in the near future, would be to expand Peter Pan's Flight next door into something bigger, effectively having that one attraction take over that entire side of Fantasyland. I could see why a longer Pan attraction with increased queue space would be appealing to Disney, though I certainly hope they don't go that route.

 

[owlsandcoffee]

I see Toad as basically untouchable. As someone said above they can't really do anything about it without causing 18 other problems.

 

[mickEblu]

I see Toad as basically untouchable. As someone said above they can't really do anything about it without causing 18 other problems.

I agree with the sentiment but they were willing to change Toad to Pooh in the early 2000s which is very confusing. With that said, I do also wonder if there is a chance the ride experience would have actually been better in Toads space as it would have felt more intimate and also forced them to be more creative.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

I agree with the sentiment but they were willing to change Toad to Pooh in the early 2000s which is very confusing. With that said, I do also wonder if there is a chance the ride experience would have actually been better in Toads space as it would have felt more intimate and also forced them to be more creative.

I really doubt that they were ever seriously considering Toad in Anaheim for Pooh, as what they really wanted was a good sized Pooh store (which even if they were to use the Mad Hatter would be too small for the purpose). Pooh was definitely considered for Toontown/Starland initially and there's concept art that I would assume is from the 80's of SM in Tashen's Disney book with some type of "Pooh Corner" in Critter Country that coexits with Country Bear Jamboree.

 

[SevenSevens]

I wouldn't mind seeing Toad get some of the projector mapping effects that are in Snow White and Alice. Give it a bit of visual upgrade without really changing anything.

 

[owlsandcoffee]

I wouldn't mind seeing Toad get some of the projector mapping effects that are in Snow White and Alice. Give it a bit of visual upgrade without really changing anything.

That would be lovely.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

I agree with the sentiment but they were willing to change Toad to Pooh in the early 2000s which is very confusing. With that said, I do also wonder if there is a chance the ride experience would have actually been better in Toads space as it would have felt more intimate and also forced them to be more creative.

WDW's Toad was twice the size of Disneyland's and featured two different tracks, so it was prime real estate. The idea of Toad being untouchable at Disneyland has more to do with how difficult it would be to put anything else there, which thankfully should spare it from the current management who cares less about the park's legacy than we would like.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Digging up this thread as I was thinking more about this ride today.

There's quite a lot of props that are just scattered throughout the ride in an attempt to fill space that was made vacant by the moving or removal of props. The worst offender are the dungeon cells, which are still dungeon cells, but instead of skeletons, are full of pots and things. Similarly, the staircase Snow White stood on now has some barrels on it, but still looks like something used to be there.

More effort should have been made to redesign certain walls and scenery to make this less obvious, such as having shelves for all those witchy ingredients, or more painted to forced perspective hallways to suggest secret areas of the Queen's castle.

The ride as a whole suffers from the poor staging and placement of props and projections, along with some odd additions like the book in front of the cottage. The two cliffsides are especially egregious, along with the noted mirror and Grumpy projections.

Many WDI rides suffer from these problems, but they're especially bad in this case, probably because of the limited room to work with, but WED in the past was able to work wonders under limitations before.

 

[duncedoof]

Kicking a dead horse. The first half of this update is great, especially the part with just the dwarves. It just completely falls apart after the dungeon, it's way too rushed. I miss the scary trees and skeletons, surely those could've stayed?

I'm all down for the happy ending for a more complete telling of the story, that's wonderful. They just should've allocated space better to not gut the scary parts and identity this ride had. This is all a simultaneous net positive and net negative.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Kicking a dead horse. The first half of this update is great, especially the part with just the dwarves. It just completely falls apart after the dungeon, it's way too rushed. I miss the scary trees and skeletons, surely those could've stayed?

I'm all down for the happy ending for a more complete telling of the story, that's wonderful. They just should've allocated space better to not gut the scary parts and identity this ride had. This is all a simultaneous net positive and net negative.

But the scary parts were what caused all the problems, and there were constant complaints about the ending. There's a reason they went the direction they did. And while not everyone's happy with this new version, I've yet to read testimony from anyone on the internet that has convinced me that they truly loved the attraction or thought it was a flawless classic as it operated in the past.

While I respect the intent of having three different dark rides with three different moods, the choice of Snow White as the scary attraction has, in my view, inarguably aged poorly. Even when looking at the much smaller film library the studio had to choose from in 2955, there was no shortage of films with horrifying imagery to choose from, including some that are more widely associated with horrific moments (Pinocchio), or short subjects that probably would have better fit a three minute long dark ride (Sleepy Hollow, Night on Bald Mountain, Peter and the Wolf). But people just don't think of Snow White as a scary or intense picture, even if it has moments of horror within it, and more than sixty years of trying to get people to do so through the attration has not proven successful, especially after the Disney Princess Line became a thing. So after awhile, I can't really blame them for just pivoting away from it entirely and giving people what they expect.

 

[Professortango1]

But the scary parts were what caused all the problems, and there were constant complaints about the ending. There's a reason they went the direction they did. And while not everyone's happy with this new version, I've yet to read testimony from anyone on the internet that has convinced me that they truly loved the attraction or thought it was a flawless classic as it operated in the past.

While I respect the intent of having three different dark rides with three different moods, the choice of Snow White as the scary attraction has, in my view, inarguably aged poorly. Even when looking at the much smaller film library the studio had to choose from in 2955, there was no shortage of films with horrifying imagery to choose from, including some that are more widely associated with horrific moments (Pinocchio), or short subjects that probably would have better fit a three minute long dark ride (Sleepy Hollow, Night on Bald Mountain, Peter and the Wolf). But people just don't think of Snow White as a scary or intense picture, even if it has moments of horror within it, and more than sixty years of trying to get people to do so through the attration has not proven successful, especially after the Disney Princess Line became a thing. So after awhile, I can't really blame them for just pivoting away from it entirely and giving people what they expect.

I mean, it WAS called Snow White's SCARY Adventures and had skulls all over the queue facade. And if parents actually watched the film, it is quite dark.

Modern parents are the issue. A combination of just assuming they know everything through osmosis and cultural zeitgeist as well as thinking a kid getting scared is something we should guard against. As a kid both Snow White and Haunted Mansion's shrieking pop-up ghosts scared me. I remember trying to remember which side was furthest away from the Witch of had the least amount of pop-ups. But, I still loved going on again and again.

Fear is an emotion and it can be healthily explored in a fun way. But the parents of the mid-to-late 80's killed that off.

 

[mickEblu]

I mean, it WAS called Snow White's SCARY Adventures and had skulls all over the queue facade. And if parents actually watched the film, it is quite dark.

Modern parents are the issue. A combination of just assuming they know everything through osmosis and cultural zeitgeist as well as thinking a kid getting scared is something we should guard against. As a kid both Snow White and Haunted Mansion's shrieking pop-up ghosts scared me. I remember trying to remember which side was furthest away from the Witch of had the least amount of pop-ups. But, I still loved going on again and again.

Fear is an emotion and it can be healthily explored in a fun way. But the parents of the mid-to-late 80's killed that off.

I think it was the parents of the late 90s and later. We were watching some pretty dark movies in the 80s. Even the fantasy movies were dark like Return to Oz. The Wheelers anyone?

 

[Professortango1]

I think it was the parents of the late 90s and later. We were watching some pretty dark movies in the 80s. Even the fantasy movies were dark like Return to Oz. The Wheelers anyone?

But that's where it started, with the backlash to those 80's films. Temple of Doom and Gremlins were famous for parents getting mad. Then we had the Satanic Panic.

 

[mickEblu]

But that's where it started, with the backlash to those 80's films. Temple of Doom and Gremlins were famous for parents getting mad. Then we had the Satanic Panic.

Oh I didn’t know that. Well, I guess my parents didn’t give a damn.

 

[PiratesMansion]

I mean, it WAS called Snow White's SCARY Adventures and had skulls all over the queue facade. And if parents actually watched the film, it is quite dark.

Modern parents are the issue. A combination of just assuming they know everything through osmosis and cultural zeitgeist as well as thinking a kid getting scared is something we should guard against. As a kid both Snow White and Haunted Mansion's shrieking pop-up ghosts scared me. I remember trying to remember which side was furthest away from the Witch of had the least amount of pop-ups. But, I still loved going on again and again.

Fear is an emotion and it can be healthily explored in a fun way. But the parents of the mid-to-late 80's killed that off.

To a point I agree with this, but the designers of the 83 version specifically put in the dungeon area in the queue and changed the name and thought that was enough to solve the problem (presumably, a problem that they knew already existed if they needed to make these changes). Clearly it was not.

Obviously there are a lot of people that are morons and quickly jump to the wrong conclusions based on marketing and/or false memories of what each film contains, but as I said in a previous post when this change was announced: Snow White, whether or not Scary was in the name, had the greatest gulf of any Disney attraction between what people expected the ride to be and what it actually was. And that was a constant throughout that attraction's existence.

Disney's certainly not faultless here in the way it's marketed the film, but if guests are having the same issue for 60+ years and there was no sign of it ending, I understand why they made the choice they did to change the focus of the ride. And other than people on here, who are inherently biased to be suspicious of all change-for valid reasons in many instances, to be clear-I'm not sure the 83 version really worked for most of the public in the way it was supposed to.

And this isn't something like the Pirates auction or the conclusion of the HM stretching room scene, where it was only recently, if at all, people started loudly voicing objections to the scenes in question. This is something that dogged the attraction for its entire existence.

If the newer version of the ride isn't for everyone, that's fair. But there's a reason they made the changes, and I don't recall anyone singing its praises on here all that much (other than George Lucas on a Bench) before they did its most recent update, which implies to me that a lot of the loudest feelings about the most recent version come from people who didn't care all that much about the 83 version of the ride.