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Smoking & WDW theme parks
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Enderikari
Well-Known Member
You know what.. You are absolutely correct. The fact that you accept as true a report that was proven false. The fact you have chilled on the secondhand smoke bandwagon for so long. And the fact that you have now run out of refutations so are now resorting to ad hominem attacks represent a shocking "half-knowledge" on your part.
Your half of the knowledge comes from lies and you have accepted them. Congratulations. This discussion is over.
Until you come up with a scientific report that links secondhand smoke to any adverse health effects that does not involve the EPA or WHO report, you have no argument. Without an argument, all you have is personal opinion, and, as you succintly put it, "Your personal opinion does not refute scientific evidence."
Your half of the knowledge comes from lies and you have accepted them. Congratulations. This discussion is over.
Until you come up with a scientific report that links secondhand smoke to any adverse health effects that does not involve the EPA or WHO report, you have no argument. Without an argument, all you have is personal opinion, and, as you succintly put it, "Your personal opinion does not refute scientific evidence."
Enderikari
Well-Known Member
Well... I don't know, doesn't the burden of proof lie with you now? I mean... I have the full report that the EPA didn't include that was brought out in trial. I have the findings of the World Health Organizaion that showed no connection.
There is evidence showing no significant danger from secondhand smoke. Which is the statement I made in the post that was the precursor to this parley.
That's my evidence, the evidence you have submitted has not been conclusive, being that the only true evidence you have submitted is from the surgeon general in 1986, saying there was thoughts of danger so they issued a warning. Upon investigation, they found no danger.
This really is a stupid argument, it has nothing to do with Disney (which I hold dear), and I think we can lay it to rest. There may be a time in the future in which the dangers of secondhand smoke are revealed, and I will gladly and willingly change my opinion, but until that time, I stand firm.
Let's let it drop, how about a new argument? Something safer, less flammatory? How about, whats everyone's favorite Monorail Color? I like the black one.
There is evidence showing no significant danger from secondhand smoke. Which is the statement I made in the post that was the precursor to this parley.
That's my evidence, the evidence you have submitted has not been conclusive, being that the only true evidence you have submitted is from the surgeon general in 1986, saying there was thoughts of danger so they issued a warning. Upon investigation, they found no danger.
This really is a stupid argument, it has nothing to do with Disney (which I hold dear), and I think we can lay it to rest. There may be a time in the future in which the dangers of secondhand smoke are revealed, and I will gladly and willingly change my opinion, but until that time, I stand firm.
Let's let it drop, how about a new argument? Something safer, less flammatory? How about, whats everyone's favorite Monorail Color? I like the black one.
Enderikari
Well-Known Member
How did I misconstrue science? Where is your proof? So far, you have done nothing but tell me that i am wrong without showing how I am. The one example you attempted to pass off as proof only showed your complete disregard to my original post, by posting the same evidence that I had refuted. You have done nothing to prove your point but attack my personal beliefs, and my person. Show your proof. Show me where I am wrong with my basic science. I am perfectly willing to accept when I am wrong when shown proof as to why I am, are you the same?
And as to your little quip about my hopeful future position, that is a low blow.
1) I enjoy a good argument, and so far, this one has been a good argument. I hold no ill-will with you at all, I simply see you as mistaken. It is a mistake that many people have made, and one that I have been trying to refute with people for awhile. It is a common argument.
2) Concerning guest relations: I have presented you with the facts and have been as accommodating to your wishes as I possibly could. Everytime you ask me to define something, or show you proof, I have, repeating myself in several instances. In return, I have recieved insults and attacks. I have been cordial and have conducted myself very well, even trying to make peace on several occasions.
Is there anything else? How does "Basic Science" A) affect Guest Relations at all? and B) Enter into an argument that is over scientific reports?
Believe me, I know the basics of science, admittedely I don't know much more that the basics. But I do know true from false, and real results vs. fake ones. That is what this is all about
And as to your little quip about my hopeful future position, that is a low blow.
1) I enjoy a good argument, and so far, this one has been a good argument. I hold no ill-will with you at all, I simply see you as mistaken. It is a mistake that many people have made, and one that I have been trying to refute with people for awhile. It is a common argument.
2) Concerning guest relations: I have presented you with the facts and have been as accommodating to your wishes as I possibly could. Everytime you ask me to define something, or show you proof, I have, repeating myself in several instances. In return, I have recieved insults and attacks. I have been cordial and have conducted myself very well, even trying to make peace on several occasions.
Is there anything else? How does "Basic Science" A) affect Guest Relations at all? and B) Enter into an argument that is over scientific reports?
Believe me, I know the basics of science, admittedely I don't know much more that the basics. But I do know true from false, and real results vs. fake ones. That is what this is all about
STGRhost
Member
I have to agree with Enderikari on that - Woody13 has yet to back up his own "scientific fact", let alone disprove anyone else's.
Also, I hope that you and your loved ones are never faced with any type of addicition or mental illness, Woody, because you clearly do not have the emotional or mental capacity to deal with something like that. Of course, you (or your loved one) could always just be institutionalized, where you aren't a bother to the general population.
It's a crime in Florida to smoke indoors many places, and Disney bans smoking in ALL indoor areas, and MOST outdoor ones as well. In fact, one of your points:
seems to back up Disney's decision to allow smoking in outdoor areas... Why can't you just avoid these areas, and leave well enough alone?
Honestly, I don't see any benefit in banning smoking at WDW. Clearly, Disney does not, either (or, at least, they see the potential disadvantages as outweighing the advantages) or they would have done it by now.
(oh, and if the way you present yourself here is the way you present yourself in real life, Enderikari, you'll do fine in GR!
)
bracho
New Member
I have been reading these boards for years and love reading some of the posts, they sure can make a person laugh but I love these threads on smoking the most... one side wants to play god, the other doesn't want their rights walked all over...
I don't smoke.. I don't find the smell of smoke nice and I will go out of my way to avoid that problem like any SMART person would. I have seen some of the posters really take this smoking thing somewhat personal, like they have any more rights then anyone else or that their feeling should take the front seat over others and you know what.. that is your "RIGHT" to think that way but don't act surprise when the smoker doesn't see things your way.
As far as reading something and "NOT" getting the facts straight or they have been misconstrue, well that is just something to laugh over too. You read something and you see it your way, right or wrong.... and I read it and see the facts a different way, right or wrong. Who does anyone think they are to tell me or anyone else that they are flat out wrong or someone as misunderstood or the facts have been misconstrue in some way. The world does not rotate to serve any one persone or any one way of thinking no matter your beliefs, just because you see things one way, doesn't mean the whole world has to stop and see it your way or the rest of us are wrong.
I have lost 2 family members to smoking or the after effects of smoking... the last one was just a few months ago. I know what smoking can do to a person and the pain that is felt by the family when the end comes because of something she couldn't quit doing.
If you have never been a slave to something like smoking or you have no idea what it is like to crave and need that puff, feeling what a smoker feels when they can't smoke is way beyond your understand and no science you point out will ever help you understand. Without understanding, without knowing what it is like to crave, truely crave...then the only thing left is judging which bring me back to the very first line.... one side wants to play god, the other doesn't want their rights walked all over...
When I go to Disney, I go to have a good time, relax and really enjoy Disney. I work to hard to spend my vacation at Disney as the rules police. I could care less if someone else wants to smoke, I could care less what others think or do because it's just not important, how I think or feel doesn't matter to anyone BUT me. Disney is about fun and I am not going to allow some yahoo who wants to smoke take away from my fun, it's just not that important. I have 2 choices when I come up on a smoker, stay or leave, but I don't have the right to think the way I feel about something is more important then the way they feel!!
Sorry to rave, but this was just to good to pass up! And I put on my flame suit so fire away
I don't smoke.. I don't find the smell of smoke nice and I will go out of my way to avoid that problem like any SMART person would. I have seen some of the posters really take this smoking thing somewhat personal, like they have any more rights then anyone else or that their feeling should take the front seat over others and you know what.. that is your "RIGHT" to think that way but don't act surprise when the smoker doesn't see things your way.
As far as reading something and "NOT" getting the facts straight or they have been misconstrue, well that is just something to laugh over too. You read something and you see it your way, right or wrong.... and I read it and see the facts a different way, right or wrong. Who does anyone think they are to tell me or anyone else that they are flat out wrong or someone as misunderstood or the facts have been misconstrue in some way. The world does not rotate to serve any one persone or any one way of thinking no matter your beliefs, just because you see things one way, doesn't mean the whole world has to stop and see it your way or the rest of us are wrong.
I have lost 2 family members to smoking or the after effects of smoking... the last one was just a few months ago. I know what smoking can do to a person and the pain that is felt by the family when the end comes because of something she couldn't quit doing.
If you have never been a slave to something like smoking or you have no idea what it is like to crave and need that puff, feeling what a smoker feels when they can't smoke is way beyond your understand and no science you point out will ever help you understand. Without understanding, without knowing what it is like to crave, truely crave...then the only thing left is judging which bring me back to the very first line.... one side wants to play god, the other doesn't want their rights walked all over...
When I go to Disney, I go to have a good time, relax and really enjoy Disney. I work to hard to spend my vacation at Disney as the rules police. I could care less if someone else wants to smoke, I could care less what others think or do because it's just not important, how I think or feel doesn't matter to anyone BUT me. Disney is about fun and I am not going to allow some yahoo who wants to smoke take away from my fun, it's just not that important. I have 2 choices when I come up on a smoker, stay or leave, but I don't have the right to think the way I feel about something is more important then the way they feel!!
Sorry to rave, but this was just to good to pass up! And I put on my flame suit so fire away
barnum42
New Member
Just ran "secondhand smoke" through BBC News - the articles still point to it being far from a good thing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3715691.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1454981.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1562147.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2053840.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2489767.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3201777.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3586967.stm
From my own "studies" I have discovered that if I go into a smokey environment - for example a pub - I will have to use my inhaler and I will suffer the effects for about three days after. Consequentally I no longer go to pubs.
Once again I thank the responsible smokers in Disney for sticking to the designated areas. I may get the odd waft of the stuff, especially in Epcot, but it's a whole lot better than the alternative.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3715691.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1454981.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1562147.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2053840.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2489767.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3201777.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3586967.stm
From my own "studies" I have discovered that if I go into a smokey environment - for example a pub - I will have to use my inhaler and I will suffer the effects for about three days after. Consequentally I no longer go to pubs.
Once again I thank the responsible smokers in Disney for sticking to the designated areas. I may get the odd waft of the stuff, especially in Epcot, but it's a whole lot better than the alternative.
BalooChicago
Well-Known Member
My gosh... I cannot believe the "holier than though" attitude contained in this thread.
Do I smoke? No. Have I smoked? No. Have any of my Disney trips been impacted by people smoking? No. Should people be allowed to smoke in designated areas in the park? Absolutely.
Really people, do any of you who have cars realize how much harm you are doing to others? Look at the environment? Did you know that vehicle pollution can cause cancer? Please stop driving, you are killing all of us. Just because second hand smoke is the latest in vogue concern. Crazy.
Do I smoke? No. Have I smoked? No. Have any of my Disney trips been impacted by people smoking? No. Should people be allowed to smoke in designated areas in the park? Absolutely.
Really people, do any of you who have cars realize how much harm you are doing to others? Look at the environment? Did you know that vehicle pollution can cause cancer? Please stop driving, you are killing all of us. Just because second hand smoke is the latest in vogue concern. Crazy.
ClemsonTigger
Naturally Grumpy
My kind of scientist
Enderikari ,
I find your presentation and organization of facts impressive, you could be on my debate team anyday! In spite of Woody's last defense in a loosing cause, of attacking personally, I personally think the conscientious and comprehensive way you handled this discussion would serve you well in any endeavor, including the Mouse House. I would look forward to shaking your hand when I visit in the fall.
I do want to recognize one of Woody's quotes as dead on, and that is:
Half knowledge is worse than ignorance. - Thomas B. Macaulay
Before you argue science Woody, I suggest you learn how to handle facts. And you can't handle facts (particularly scientific/biological) in a black and white manner. Until you recognize validity in contradictory facts, your conclusion will always be suspect. I admire your passion, and like Enderikari, I do not question at all the lethality of smoking, but don't confuse personal beliefs and studies du jour with fact.
Enderikari ,
I find your presentation and organization of facts impressive, you could be on my debate team anyday! In spite of Woody's last defense in a loosing cause, of attacking personally, I personally think the conscientious and comprehensive way you handled this discussion would serve you well in any endeavor, including the Mouse House. I would look forward to shaking your hand when I visit in the fall.
I do want to recognize one of Woody's quotes as dead on, and that is:
Half knowledge is worse than ignorance. - Thomas B. Macaulay
Before you argue science Woody, I suggest you learn how to handle facts. And you can't handle facts (particularly scientific/biological) in a black and white manner. Until you recognize validity in contradictory facts, your conclusion will always be suspect. I admire your passion, and like Enderikari, I do not question at all the lethality of smoking, but don't confuse personal beliefs and studies du jour with fact.
Shaman
Well-Known Member
Great post!!! I totally agree...I especially like (because I think it sums up the way I feel about this an many other issues):
"I have 2 choices when I come up on a smoker, stay or leave, but I don't have the right to think the way I feel about something is more important then the way they feel!!"
:wave:
Enderikari
Well-Known Member
Thank you, OBJR, for your kind words.
And thank you Bracho, for really summing up the argument. Even though I admit to being on side of the accused.
I don't smoke, but I won't tell others that they cannot. The whole argument got started by a simple statement that snowballed uncontrollably.
Everyone has personal opinions, and... as JBSLjames said, "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself."
And thank you Bracho, for really summing up the argument. Even though I admit to being on side of the accused.
I don't smoke, but I won't tell others that they cannot. The whole argument got started by a simple statement that snowballed uncontrollably.
Everyone has personal opinions, and... as JBSLjames said, "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself."
Enderikari
Well-Known Member
Oh come on now, you know no thread on WDWmagic degenerates into third grade boys bathroom humor. right?
:hammer: :brick:
LoriMistress
Well-Known Member
I'm a smoker but I never smoked at the parks. (I wanted to go on the rides.) But I get very annoyed when people are smoking at non-smoking areas in the parks. It just gives smokers like me a bad name.