Slappy's moral dilemma du jour

[hemloc]

As a former USPS letter carrier and a current federal agent, I can tell you, with stupendously great and awesome authority, that it is definitely a crime to withhold mail belonging to someone else(And in some extreme cases has been prosecuted quite successfully!). You simply need to return it to the carrier and say 'no live here'(Always my favorite:lookaroun!). Don't just dump it in a mailbox, because it will probably get sent right back to you. If it's bulk/standard mail it will just be discarded by the postal service, unless it has something like 'Return Service Requested' or 'Address Service Requested'. If it's first class, it will be forwarded(if a forwarding order had been put in within the last year or so) or returned to the sender. Most likely, it will not be forwarded in this case, so she'll never get the PIN code and you can live happily ever after knowing that you saved her from the inevitable dire straits!

 

[BigB911]

Something that no one has noted on about this whole story has me scratching my head. The OP stated that his sisters family had to live with them breifly while they were down on their luck, yet they afforded a vacation to WDW. :hammer:

Love for Disney aside, priorities need to be gotten in order here, no? My own pot to, you know, go in, would take priority over any vacation to anywhere. In fact, we were in the same position a few years back, living with my FIL. We desperately wanted to take a vacation anywhere, but more specifically, to WDW. We had a "downpayment fund" that we were putting money into, and we were constantly tempted to dip into it and just take that trip. But, we had to get our heads on straight, and get our own place, complete with said pot, before we could take a random trip to WDW. And we've done just that, and are now repeating the process of the first trip. And I couldn't be more happier and satisfied that I put the trip off.

Sorry...just hard for me to fathom that one would spend the money for a trip to WDW when one doesn't have a roof...or a pot!

 

[Susan Savia]

If its addressed to her, she should get it and decide what she wants to do.

 

[WDWFigment]

As a former USPS letter carrier and a current federal agent, I can tell you, with stupendously great and awesome authority, that it is definitely a crime to withhold mail belonging to someone else(And in some extreme cases has been prosecuted quite successfully!).

Again, the law is not black and white on this. What "great and awesome authority" do you have on this being "definitely a crime"? I am not just relying on what I think is the case. I can point to three US circuits that have concluded exactly as such. That alone indicates that it is not definitely a crime.

The Third and Fifth Circuits have ruled that 18 USC 1708 (the law in question) covers misdelivered, but not misaddressed (this would be misaddressed mail) mail, on the theory that the authority of the USPS ends once the letter has been delivered to the address on the envelope. See United States v. Lavin, 567 F.2d 579, 583 (3d Cir. 1977); United States v. Davis, 461 F.2d 83, 89-90 (5th Cir. 1972). The Ninth Circuit has ruled that Section 1708 covers misdelivered mail, but covers misaddressed mail only if a change of address form has been filed with the Postal Service by the intended recipient of the mail. See United States v. Anton, 547 F.2d 493, 495 (9th Cir. 1976).

 

[ClemsonTigger]

It's her mail so give it to her. It will be up to her to decide what to do from there, you cannot live somebody else's life for them.

I concur with the wise one!

 

[CaptainJackNO]

This is first class mail. Not handing it over to the addressee could be a Federal Offense...........

 

[Mr Toad]

I'd just send it back to the post office as "not ours" or "wrong address". It's her responsibility to have her own mail forwarded to her new address.

 

[MouseMadness]

I agree that I'd send the letter back "return to sender" "wrong address" whatever (didn't Elvis write a song answering this question? :lookaroun )

Where is the post office, Disney, and your sister's place in making sure the letter gets where it needs to be? :lol: HER letter is not YOUR responsiblity. Send it back, and let them sort it out :shrug:

And should it make its way to her, and she does try to move heaven and earth to get to Disney, just make sure she doesn't move heaven and earth back into your house :lol:

:wave:

 

[CAPTAIN HOOK]

I'm not forgetting that. It's still voluntarily sent to your address. My reading of the law is that in order for one to engage in mail tampering, one must fraudulently or deceptively cause, or attempt to cause, said mail to arrive in their possession. In other words, some affirmative action is required. Slappy's acquisition of the mail is purely passive.

Of course, reasonable minds might differ on this. That's why I initially said it's not so black and white as "this IS mail tampering."

By dishonestly retaining mail addressed to someone else you're committing a crime. A mail shot is unsolicited and not addressed to anyone and therefore the recipient may dispose of it as they see fit. The OP states that the mail is addressed to his sister at his address, while she no longer resides there, the mail is intended for her.
Not mail tampering - just retention = theft.

 

[WDWFigment]

By dishonestly retaining mail addressed to someone else you're committing a crime. A mail shot is unsolicited and not addressed to anyone and therefore the recipient may dispose of it as they see fit. The OP states that the mail is addressed to his sister at his address, while she no longer resides there, the mail is intended for her.
Not mail tampering - just retention = theft.

Did you read any of the cases I cited or even the section of US Code pertaining to theft or receipt of stolen mail? Unless you have a Supreme Court case (there isn't one) holding otherwise, there is no viable argument that this is a crime. It very well might be a crime in the majority of circuits, but at least three federal circuits have held that it is not a crime. That means, at best, it is only a crime in some places. The three cases I cited are analogous to the circumstances here.

 

[fosse76]

Again, the law is not black and white on this. What "great and awesome authority" do you have on this being "definitely a crime"? I am not just relying on what I think is the case. I can point to three US circuits that have concluded exactly as such. That alone indicates that it is not definitely a crime.

The Third and Fifth Circuits have ruled that 18 USC 1708 (the law in question) covers misdelivered, but not misaddressed (this would be misaddressed mail) mail, on the theory that the authority of the USPS ends once the letter has been delivered to the address on the envelope. See United States v. Lavin, 567 F.2d 579, 583 (3d Cir. 1977); United States v. Davis, 461 F.2d 83, 89-90 (5th Cir. 1972). The Ninth Circuit has ruled that Section 1708 covers misdelivered mail, but covers misaddressed mail only if a change of address form has been filed with the Postal Service by the intended recipient of the mail. See United States v. Anton, 547 F.2d 493, 495 (9th Cir. 1976).

And the 7th and 10th Circuits held just the opposite. So your point is moot. It was addressed to his sister, not him. He has no right to keep it.

 

[WDWFigment]

And the 7th and 10th Circuits held just the opposite. So your point is moot. It was addressed to his sister, not him. He has no right to keep it.

My only point is that this is not always a crime, as you and other posters have definitively claimed. I think my repeated statements that "this is not black and white" reflect that (I even said "not definitely" a crime--not to be confused with "definitely not" a crime). That point still stands.

 

[fosse76]

Something that no one has noted on about this whole story has me scratching my head. The OP stated that his sisters family had to live with them breifly while they were down on their luck, yet they afforded a vacation to WDW. :hammer:

I noted it, and my response was: so what?

Love for Disney aside, priorities need to be gotten in order here, no? My own pot to, you know, go in, would take priority over any vacation to anywhere. In fact, we were in the same position a few years back, living with my FIL. We desperately wanted to take a vacation anywhere, but more specifically, to WDW. We had a "downpayment fund" that we were putting money into, and we were constantly tempted to dip into it and just take that trip. But, we had to get our heads on straight, and get our own place, complete with said pot, before we could take a random trip to WDW. And we've done just that, and are now repeating the process of the first trip. And I couldn't be more happier and satisfied that I put the trip off.

Sorry...just hard for me to fathom that one would spend the money for a trip to WDW when one doesn't have a roof...or a pot!

It's not your decision though. No one, and I mean no one, has ANY right to tell any one else how to spend their own money. What if someone were to say to you that you shouldn't be taking vacations, because that money could be used to make larger payments to your mortgage, or car loan, or student loan, etc.? Yes, people make bad choices, and yes those bad choices sometimes force them to rely on the help of others. But they have a right to make that choice for themself, and not to have it made for them by some self-righteous individual who thinks he knows best.

 

[njDizFan]

I noted it, and my response was: so what?




It's not your decision though. No one, and I mean no one, has ANY right to tell any one else how to spend their own money. What if someone were to say to you that you shouldn't be taking vacations, because that money could be used to make larger payments to your mortgage, or car loan, or student loan, etc.? Yes, people make bad choices, and yes those bad choices sometimes force them to rely on the help of others. But they have a right to make that choice for themself, and not to have it made for them by some self-righteous individual who thinks he knows best.

well it would pretty much kill the entire advertising industry, that's their job to tell people what they should spend money on.
Every second of your day somebody is telling us what to spend our money on. AND understandably you are then given the choice whether or not to purchase their product.

This is a moral dilemma and the possibility of this being a federal crime shouldn't be weighed into the conversation..

The Post Office doesn't care what we do....lol

 

[jonesenon4]

:wave:here is the quick and easy answer to your dilema.i am an employee of the us postal service so this is the answer.if you look in the upper right hand corner of the card it will be stamped either first class or presort standard if it is standard you can simply throw it away if you wish.if it is first class or has address service requested you can either forward it to your sister or place it back in your mailbox saying no longer at this address.most of the pin codes i have seen however are all standard mail so just throw it away if you wish and have a clear mind and heart.hope this helps.:wave:

 

[WDWFigment]

well it would pretty much kill the entire advertising industry, that's their job to tell people what they should spend money on.
Every second of your day somebody is telling us what to spend our money on. AND understandably you are then given the choice whether or not to purchase their product.

This is a moral dilemma and the possibility of this being a federal crime shouldn't be weighed into the conversation..

The Post Office doesn't care what we do....lol

But of course it ceases to be a moral dilemma if it is possibly a federal crime! Because federal laws always are morally correct, and of course, because the other posters here have obviously never broken any laws!

I think some people want to force their views on the OP (how ironic), with the argument that "you can't to do this, since it's a federal offense."

 

[hwdelien]

Wake the dog's!!! I have to move heaven and earth for every trip, anything to make it easier would help.

 

[xdan0920]

Figment is clearly right about the law here, seems silly to argue otherwise. However, the law has zero to do with the OP's post. Who cares if it is illegal? This is not the kind of thing that is going to get punished, so lets not be ridiculous and bring that into play. It is his sisters mail, not some stranger that just moved out of a house that he just moved in to.

My advice would be just throw it away, if you believe you are truly helping her by not telling her about it, then just put it in the trash. Most likely all it would cause her is stress.

 

[trr1]

you could always accidentlly keep it untill the expire date then hand it over after:drevil:

 

[hemloc]

Again, the law is not black and white on this. What "great and awesome authority" do you have on this being "definitely a crime"? I am not just relying on what I think is the case. I can point to three US circuits that have concluded exactly as such. That alone indicates that it is not definitely a crime.

The Third and Fifth Circuits have ruled that 18 USC 1708 (the law in question) covers misdelivered, but not misaddressed (this would be misaddressed mail) mail, on the theory that the authority of the USPS ends once the letter has been delivered to the address on the envelope. See United States v. Lavin, 567 F.2d 579, 583 (3d Cir. 1977); United States v. Davis, 461 F.2d 83, 89-90 (5th Cir. 1972). The Ninth Circuit has ruled that Section 1708 covers misdelivered mail, but covers misaddressed mail only if a change of address form has been filed with the Postal Service by the intended recipient of the mail. See United States v. Anton, 547 F.2d 493, 495 (9th Cir. 1976).

My great and awesome authority is just to tell you how great and awesome I am:drevil:!! Other than that, you can quote Circuit rulings all you want, but once you remove something from your mailbox that is not addressed to you, and you willfully decide not to return it to the postal service in a reasonable amount of time as being misdelivered, you are committing a crime. Ignorance is never a defense, either. And don't even get me started on the 9th Circus:fork:. What one Circuit might say, may be the opposite of another, and is usually the case. Which is why many prosecutors are a joke as they rely on current case law or precedents as to how they work. Mostly meaning many of them are simply lazy/overworked and don't want to work a case where they actually have to put some effort into fighting to set a new precedent. It's ridiculously frustrating in my line of work to see cases declined because they are not sexy enough, and the bad guys go on about there criminal enterprises willy-nilly without a care in the world and laugh at the justice system. Also, just because a Circuit might rule one way, it doesn't mean that the offense in question is not a crime.

Either way, if you hold onto someones mail deliberately, you are generally a douchebag, to put it into layman's terms!!!