Should Disneyland create a ‘Disney Bubble’? - OCR/SCNG

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Yes, his post was an oversimplification as well - but his stated opinion of “do whatever you want willy-nilly” is also dismissed (rightfully perhaps) by the majority of people with a voice in society.

On the other hand, it’s become very socially acceptable to shame people who don’t have the “right” mindset regarding COVID restrictions. And all I’m asking for is the “tolerant” bunch to be a little more self-aware. All policy alternatives have trade-offs. An inherently good policy to you isn’t necessarily an inherently good policy to someone who’s lost their livelihood and received a mere $1,800 this year from our benevolent overlords.
Who is claiming to be “tolerant”? Engaging in activity that can endanger others is shameful and should be shamed.

This should not be a question of policy. That the disease spreads person-to-person and one can be contagious while a- or pre-symptomatic is well established by now. Responsible people should reduce interacting with other persons as much as possible of their own volition. Yes, some businesses will suffer as happened before any restrictions were put in place and there should be a reasonable discussion about helping those people because they have lost business due to a devastating global event.

This idea that people here are just asking to act responsibly but without government interference is just bunk. Denying and doubting how the virus spreads is not just asking for less government interference. Bragging about being out when not necessary just because is not about less government interference. Claiming masks are for those who are afraid is not about government interference. Encouraging people to get together for socializing is not about government interference. Denying the jump in excess deaths (US may hit 400,000 by the end of the year) is not about government interference. Spreading conspiracy theories that doctors are misdiagnosing people for money and that people die “with COVID” has nothing to do with government interference. Even when there are less restrictions there is just hypocritical whining about how ridiculous it is that more things aren’t closed. If this was just about society choosing to act as best as possible there wouldn’t be the intentional spreading of misinformation, lies and conspiracies. It very much is trying to justify doing whatever and denying the pandemic.
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
Who is claiming to be “tolerant”? Engaging in activity that can endanger others is shameful and should be shamed.

This should not be a question of policy. That the disease spreads person-to-person and one can be contagious while a- or pre-symptomatic is well established by now. Responsible people should reduce interacting with other persons as much as possible of their own volition. Yes, some businesses will suffer as happened before any restrictions were put in place and there should be a reasonable discussion about helping those people because they have lost business due to a devastating global event.

This idea that people here are just asking to act responsibly but without government interference is just bunk. Denying and doubting how the virus spreads is not just asking for less government interference. Bragging about being out when not necessary just because is not about less government interference. Claiming masks are for those who are afraid is not about government interference. Encouraging people to get together for socializing is not about government interference. Denying the jump in excess deaths (US may hit 400,000 by the end of the year) is not about government interference. Spreading conspiracy theories that doctors are misdiagnosing people for money and that people die “with COVID” has nothing to do with government interference. Even when there are less restrictions there is just hypocritical whining about how ridiculous it is that more things aren’t closed. If this was just about society choosing to act as best as possible there wouldn’t be the intentional spreading of misinformation, lies and conspiracies. It very much is trying to justify doing whatever and denying the pandemic.

I’m pro-masking (i was pro-masking even when the “experts” were intentionally lying to us and telling us not to mask). I’m against the conspiracy theories you’ve spoken to. So I’m not really sure how to respond to your rant.

But I will say, when we have an individualistic society and the most useless federal government in the developed world... we need to find a way for commerce to go on, in some capacity, across the board. We’re on our own - citizen needs take a backseat to politicking. I’m not saying I support that, I’m just saying that’s the way it is.

You’ve clearly come out of this whole thing economically unscathed. Congrats. Fortunately I have too, but I’m trying to have a little empathy for those who haven’t. Some of the economic ramifications to individuals and businesses may not even be realized for some time.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I’m pro-masking (i was pro-masking even when the “experts” were intentionally lying to us and telling us not to mask). I’m against the conspiracy theories you’ve spoken to. So I’m not really sure how to respond to your rant.

But I will say, when we have an individualistic society and the most useless federal government in the developed world... we need to find a way for commerce to go on, in some capacity, across the board. We’re on our own - citizen needs take a backseat to politicking. I’m not saying I support that, I’m just saying that’s the way it is.

You’ve clearly come out of this whole thing economically unscathed. Congrats. Fortunately I have too, but I’m trying to have a little empathy for those who haven’t. Some of the economic ramifications to individuals and businesses may not even be realized for some time.
That misinformation and conspiracy theories are what drive many of the actions and policies you want given more tolerance and consideration.

Commerce is going to take a hit during a pandemic. That is just the nature of them. People chose not to engage in certain activities. The economy isn’t being spared in places that have prioritized the economy. The best way to minimize economic destruction is to focus on dealing with the pandemic directly. Air travel took a huge hit before restrictions. Walt Disney World still laid off thousands. There are costs to people just being sick for weeks.

Weird that you claim to not support just making things up and then make up knowledge of my financial situation.
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
That misinformation and conspiracy theories are what drive many of the actions and policies you want given more tolerance and consideration.

Commerce is going to take a hit during a pandemic. That is just the nature of them. People chose not to engage in certain activities. The economy isn’t being spared in places that have prioritized the economy. The best way to minimize economic destruction is to focus on dealing with the pandemic directly. Air travel took a huge hit before restrictions. Walt Disney World still laid off thousands. There are costs to people just being sick for weeks.

Weird that you claim to not support just making things up and then make up knowledge of my financial situation.

I said I don’t support conspiracy theories, which I don’t. But assumptions =\= conspiracy theories. I made an assumption, at the risk of making myself look like an ***.

And yes, commerce will take a hit. Of course. I don’t doubt that. But that is different then being forced to not work or conduct business without being made nearly whole in return - global pandemic or not. Certain states have been pretty strict on businesses and have done nothing other than offer their measly $250-$500 per week in unemployment. I’m fine with the rules if the rule makers:

1) Don their own rules.
2) Make whole those to whom the rules are being imposed upon.

#2 isn’t happening at all on a local/state level, and there’s many anecdotes of #1 happening.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

All policy alternatives have trade-offs. An inherently good policy to you isn’t necessarily an inherently good policy to someone who’s lost their livelihood and received a mere $1,800 this year from our benevolent overlords.

That's true, and healthy debate in good faith is integral to the success of our democracy. However, there should be no debate when it comes to policy decisions that put the health and wellbeing of citizens above businesses, particularly billion dollar corporations with a ton of cash stashed away like Disney does.

The fact that one party had to wrangle with the other for 6 months to get such a pittance for suffering people tells us all we need to know about where priorities lie with the other. The hypocrites profess to care about Americans, but we can all see by their actions that they don't and it's shameful. But yes, who cares, let's hurry up and open Disneyland. :rolleyes:
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
That's true, and healthy debate in good faith is integral to the success of our democracy. However, there should be no debate when it comes to policy decisions that put the health and wellbeing of citizens above businesses, particularly billion dollar corporations with a ton of cash stashed away like Disney does.

The fact that one party had to wrangle with the other for 6 months to get such a pittance for suffering people tells us all we need to know about where priorities lie with the other. The hypocrites profess to care about Americans, but we can all see by their actions that they don't and it's shameful. But yes, who cares, let's hurry up and open Disneyland. :rolleyes:

Problem is, you’re describing things how they should be - not how they are. Of course politicians on both sides of the aisle should have worked together to come up with a plan that prioritized public safety AND ensured that Americans didn’t suffer economically. Of course Disney should close the parks and use their billions in stowed cash to continue paying their employees until the pandemic is over. But what happens when should doesn’t occur? You can say we need to put public health ahead of business, but that affects the proletariat way more than it affects the suits at Disney. Surely you realize that. So, again, there’s trade-offs... whether we like it or not. And to act as though it’s cut-and-dry is arrogant. We can’t just wish away Republicans. We have to play the hand we’re dealt.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Problem is, you’re describing things how they should be - not how they are. Of course politicians on both sides of the aisle should have worked together to come up with a plan that prioritized public safety AND ensured that Americans didn’t suffer economically. Of course Disney should close the parks and use their billions in stowed cash to continue paying their employees until the pandemic is over. But what happens when should doesn’t occur? You can say we need to put public health ahead of business, but that affects the proletariat way more than it affects the suits at Disney. Surely you realize that. So, again, there’s trade-offs... whether we like it or not. And to act as though it’s cut-and-dry is arrogant. We can’t just wish away Republicans. We have to play the hand we’re dealt.
And here in Anaheim, we have a Resort/Sports/Convention area that has MANY Family owned Small Businesses that rely on Disneyland, the Convention Center, Sports and other events. They might have a Hotel Name like a Hilton, Marriott, etc. But those Hotels are NOT owned by the big corporation, but are licensed by the franchise owner. These folks provide jobs and income to many, and some are shutting down or being sold to a corporation.

Without Disneyland open and operating, it is these SMALL businesses, Hotels, Inn, Restaurants, Retail, event planners, Uber/Lyft/Taxi/Shuttle drivers, etc. that are hurting the most, and are losing their businesses/livelihood.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I said I don’t support conspiracy theories, which I don’t. But assumptions =\= conspiracy theories. I made an assumption, at the risk of making myself look like an ***.

And yes, commerce will take a hit. Of course. I don’t doubt that. But that is different then being forced to not work or conduct business without being made nearly whole in return - global pandemic or not. Certain states have been pretty strict on businesses and have done nothing other than offer their measly $250-$500 per week in unemployment. I’m fine with the rules if the rule makers:

1) Don their own rules.
2) Make whole those to whom the rules are being imposed upon.

#2 isn’t happening at all on a local/state level, and there’s many anecdotes of #1 happening.
This is why I said it’s not just a question of policy. Yes, leaders should lead by example but the information regarding the virus is not coming from any one individual source. It doesn’t matter if Newsom, Pelosi and Fauci are hosting maskless raves for out of state visitors every night, that doesn’t change how the virus spreads and the ways that spread can be mitigated. That information is coming from enough and various sources. In another thread I used the example of a doctor who smokes and tells others not to smoke. One engaging in inadvisable behavior does not itself negate the advice. I’ve had overweight doctors in my life, that doesn’t mean I just ignore the far wider consensus that being overweight is detrimental to one’s health and well-being. I‘m sure we’ve both done things we would not advise others to do.

Yes, those being forced out of work by the government should be compensated but they are not and really should not, be the only people experiencing lost business. People are being forced out of work even without restrictions. There is a sandwich shop not too far from me that I would very much like to order from but cannot because they have been closed since early March. A small family-owned place where the owner works every day from open to close. Exactly the sort of place people would say should be allowed to be open so the owner can make a living for his family and continue to pay his employees. Except he wasn’t shut down. There has never been a restriction here that would require the shop to close. He isn’t elderly or of ill health and therefore too afraid to open. His shop also only has a few barstools at a counter and a couple of tables outside, so restrictions on in-person dining are not an issue since the business was overwhelmingly take out. No, he is closed because the shop is located on the ground floor of an office building and when those companies moved to work-from-home his customers disappeared. Most of the tenants would also be categorized as essential and also were never required to close or even severely curtail their office work. An entire business wiped out because of freely chosen responses to the pandemic in line with widespread medical advice, not any government restrictions. That’s an anecdote but there are plenty of other larger examples. Air travel started to plummet before restrictions. Conventions were cancelled well into the future shutting down an entire industry. Regal Cinemas are closed across the country because there is not enough business to keep them open and surveys continue to show that even with content far too many people are not interested in going to the movies at this time. Walt Disney World has entire hotels closed because the demand is not there. DeSantis has begged the major parks to increase capacity and they have not, hurting the many small businesses that make up the attractions area. The economy is not being spared in places where it is being prioritized because it is not just restrictions that will hurt businesses.

Problem is, you’re describing things how they should be - not how they are. Of course politicians on both sides of the aisle should have worked together to come up with a plan that prioritized public safety AND ensured that Americans didn’t suffer economically. Of course Disney should close the parks and use their billions in stowed cash to continue paying their employees until the pandemic is over. But what happens when should doesn’t occur? You can say we need to put public health ahead of business, but that affects the proletariat way more than it affects the suits at Disney. Surely you realize that. So, again, there’s trade-offs... whether we like it or not. And to act as though it’s cut-and-dry is arrogant. We can’t just wish away Republicans. We have to play the hand we’re dealt.
Putting public health first would protect those of lower socioeconomic status. Not working is just one negative impact. Living in tighter quarters means there is more spread. Working jobs that cannot be done remotely means more exposure. Not having access to real broadband internet means not being able to do virtual schooling, working from home, telemedicine or online shopping. Can’t afford delivery services, or missing work for two weeks or a hospital bill. Can’t afford to stop working because they’re now a long hauler. Without restrictions the pandemic is still disproportionately impacting those of lower socioeconomic status.

What you describe is rather defeatist. Working with the hand you have been dealt does not mean discarding ideals. The trade offs in this case aren’t really this or that but more this or this and that.
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
This is why I said it’s not just a question of policy. Yes, leaders should lead by example but the information regarding the virus is not coming from any one individual source. It doesn’t matter if Newsom, Pelosi and Fauci are hosting maskless raves for out of state visitors every night, that doesn’t change how the virus spreads and the ways that spread can be mitigated. That information is coming from enough and various sources. In another thread I used the example of a doctor who smokes and tells others not to smoke. One engaging in inadvisable behavior does not itself negate the advice. I’ve had overweight doctors in my life, that doesn’t mean I just ignore the far wider consensus that being overweight is detrimental to one’s health and well-being. I‘m sure we’ve both done things we would not advise others to do.

Yes, those being forced out of work by the government should be compensated but they are not and really should not, be the only people experiencing lost business. People are being forced out of work even without restrictions. There is a sandwich shop not too far from me that I would very much like to order from but cannot because they have been closed since early March. A small family-owned place where the owner works every day from open to close. Exactly the sort of place people would say should be allowed to be open so the owner can make a living for his family and continue to pay his employees. Except he wasn’t shut down. There has never been a restriction here that would require the shop to close. He isn’t elderly or of ill health and therefore too afraid to open. His shop also only has a few barstools at a counter and a couple of tables outside, so restrictions on in-person dining are not an issue since the business was overwhelmingly take out. No, he is closed because the shop is located on the ground floor of an office building and when those companies moved to work-from-home his customers disappeared. Most of the tenants would also be categorized as essential and also were never required to close or even severely curtail their office work. An entire business wiped out because of freely chosen responses to the pandemic in line with widespread medical advice, not any government restrictions. That’s an anecdote but there are plenty of other larger examples. Air travel started to plummet before restrictions. Conventions were cancelled well into the future shutting down an entire industry. Regal Cinemas are closed across the country because there is not enough business to keep them open and surveys continue to show that even with content far too many people are not interested in going to the movies at this time. Walt Disney World has entire hotels closed because the demand is not there. DeSantis has begged the major parks to increase capacity and they have not, hurting the many small businesses that make up the attractions area. The economy is not being spared in places where it is being prioritized because it is not just restrictions that will hurt businesses.


Putting public health first would protect those of lower socioeconomic status. Not working is just one negative impact. Living in tighter quarters means there is more spread. Working jobs that cannot be done remotely means more exposure. Not having access to real broadband internet means not being able to do virtual schooling, working from home, telemedicine or online shopping. Can’t afford delivery services, or missing work for two weeks or a hospital bill. Can’t afford to stop working because they’re now a long hauler. Without restrictions the pandemic is still disproportionately impacting those of lower socioeconomic status.

What you describe is rather defeatist. Working with the hand you have been dealt does not mean discarding ideals. The trade offs in this case aren’t really this or that but more this or this and that.
I probably do sound defeatist, and I’m not proud of that. It’s not something I aspire to. It’s just a frustrating situation. I know people who unfortunately have died from this virus, and I know even more who have experienced significant economic turmoil. You want to believe there’s a way to have both public health and economic prowess, and it becomes bleak when both are so frayed. Perhaps my views on the situation are probably driven more by emotion than logic. Rather than dig in even further, as would be expected by an Internet stranger, I’ll just say thanks for your well-articulated views on the matter. They’re probably more profound and well-stated than my own.
 

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
The ones in Anaheim are crafted by Mr. Pepe himself. The ones in Florida are made by his brother, with little to do with Mr. Pepe's original vision.
It's so funny that people refuse to believe me when I tell them you can purchase Disneyland's churros at Smart and Final. "No that must be different".

I was just at Downtown Disney a few weeks ago and saw them lugging Tio Pepes boxes from backstage on a dolly.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
And Florida's total cases per million rate is also considerably higher than California's. Hmm, I wonder why?

Florida total cases - 1,280,177
Florida population - 21.67 million
Florida cases per million - 16.9

California total cases - 2,181,311
California population - 39.56 million
California cases per million - 18.1

Unless Bing is reporting the wrong numbers Florida is doing better than California... even with less restrictions.
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
Florida total cases - 1,280,177
Florida population - 21.67 million
Florida cases per million - 16.9

California total cases - 2,181,311
California population - 39.56 million
California cases per million - 18.1

Unless Bing is reporting the wrong numbers Florida is doing better than California... even with less restrictions.

Cali’s death rate is 1 of every 1610 people. Florida is 1 out of 1008.
 

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