Rumors. Musings. Casual.

WoundedDreamer

Well-Known Member
Time will tell. The prequels certainly has a better more cohesive story than the sequels have. But the clone wars show did a ton of heavy lifting fleshing out the prequel into something more well rounded
George Lucas, for whatever flaws he has, put an enormous amount of thought into those movies. It was one grand myth that explores themes of loss, letting go, anger, the moral decay of government, etc. And he also has interesting things to say about those topics. Take his explanation for Anakin's fall to the dark side. He believes people become evil because they cannot accept loss and change. They want to control the things they care about in order to avoid feeling loss. That process corrupts the individual and causes them to destroy the very thing they sought to control and protect. Lucas demonstrated this with Anakin's relationship with Padme. He ended up destroying both himself and his wife in a tortured and ultimately futile attempt to protect her. It's actually saying something pretty meaningful. We need to accept death and loss, or else we will destroy ourselves and harm those we care about.

Now, you can either agree or disagree with Lucas's philosophy. I probably have a few critiques. But either way you have to admire the thought he put into his ideas. I've discussed those films for hours with friends. Not about what alien species or speeder appears in a certain scene. No, we broach topics of life and death, tyranny and freedom, faith and despair. It's wild that a mass-media franchise could tackle these sorts of things, while also remaining entertaining for kids.

By contrast, the sequel trilogy was made haphazardly without a clear overarching vision. Indeed, it almost feels like competing visions. Rey's whole arc in the Last Jedi was accepting that she was a nobody and that she came from nowhere. She has to accept that fact, and realize it's okay. The film ends with the idea that the force (I think in this case like a metaphor for positive change or maybe the value of a person) resides in everyone and great people can emerge from anywhere. This is not an entirely alien concept to Star Wars, so fine. The next film we find out the reason she's powerful is because her grandpa was Palpatine. It undercuts The Last Jedi's entire arc. As a collective work, it's not as compelling or consistent.

I think people pick up on this quality difference. One of the worst Disney offenses was the transformation of the force. In case someone was wondering, a balance between light and dark is not the ideal. One can only draw power from the light side or the dark side. One cannot be both evil and good simultaneously. That's not what George meant by "balance of the force." Balance means the elimination of evil. Obviously. It's bizarre how Disney can't figure this out.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
While EPCOT is still finishing redoing pavement and replacing 1 building in the middle of their park, DisneySea is about to open 3 new mini-lands, each with (what seems to be) fully-fledged dark rides.

Meanwhile, crickets over here at WDW for anything else coming that isn't just an overlay to an existing attraction.

This is a classic case of the grass always being greener. Tokyo locals have been lamenting that lack of new rides while WDW was significantly propped up. In a window where Tokyo rolled out Beauty and the Beast and a Baymax Whip ride (not to undersell the entertainment); plus TSMM and Soaring - WDW expanded both of those rides and delivered Pandora, Galaxies Edge, Tron, Rat, Guardians, Toy Story, etc. I’m sure Fantasy Springs will be wonderful, but it’s a convenient snap shot into otherwise a rather slow decade.



This is not to undersell OLC’s track record with maintenance and entertainment. But Paris seems to be also going through a renaissance. So I’d argue the issue really isn’t Disney leadership as a whole. It’s the resort specific leadership.



Same phenomenon is going on right now in Florida. Everyone asking how Disney is set to respond to Epic, while ignoring WDW actually had a much stronger previous decade than Uni (post Diagon Alley). Epic is a move to prevent Universal from ceding its momentum, which it was starting to.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
His sources are apparently grappling with the current cash situation. The projections you keep referencing are merely that: projections. They haven’t come about yet, and may not. What we do know will come about is the cash paid to Comcast. Incidentally, the more successful and profitable Hulu is viewed, the more Disney will have to pay. It’s not clear how the branding strategy will work long term to fully take advantage of the benefits Hulu brings.

Assuming what you say is true and the billions Disney has invested in DTC turns a profit at the end of Q4. Is this a company that’s acting like it in terms of domestic parks buildouts? Because it sure seems like a division coping with retrenchment, not one that’s acting as if it will be flush in cash in a few months’ time.

Doesn’t the SEC filings and constant barrage from Iger on future parks spend fly counter to this? We’ve had Iger for far too long, but historically this is the most bullish he’s ever been on parks and resort spending.

I know that Iger is not shy about red oceaning P&R… but this doesn’t feel like that era at all. It just feels like a pandemic/Chapek spend freeze hangover.

I understand the feeling of impatience. But as with my OLC point above, they too went on their own tour of plans for spend. A decade ago. Fantasy Springs being the end result, but the timeframe was equally long in the tooth.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
I caught up with the thread about Iger extending his contract.

Are our only options at the moment either Iger running Disney even longer or the company being taken over by somebody even worse? If so, ugh.
I struggle to think of any IP rides I would call iconic. Indiana Jones is maybe the only.
Peter Pan's Flight, Mad Tea Party, and Dumbo the Flying Elephant all qualify as IP rides, don't they?
 

DisneyGentlemanV2.0

Well-Known Member
Good thing they will have $9 billion of Bob's money to play with soon. ;)



Yep. They want the people who have 287 different sets of Mickey Ears on shelves and 93 different Loungefly's hanging on their walls. Thankfully, that market is small. But for me, a larger problem is quality of merchandise. Without quality merch, they're dead. Between the utter crap they put out, the prices, and the nickel and diming that's been going on far too long, it's hard to regain goodwill once it's lost.

Bob said it best - They want the family of 4 from Denver on their once-in-a-lifetime trip. But what they all have failed to realize is, they are making it so that the connections that were made by the previous generation aren't created in the newer generation. My kids were lucky and have had many, many trips in their young lives. But now that they are older (late teens, early 20's), they see the prices and recoil in disgust.

Message to Bob - You have failed.
When I was younger, I bought into DVC and made 3-4 visits per year with my family. I lived to go there!

Now I'm older and have far more disposable income, yet would not spend a nickel on that aging dump of a theme park.

So tell me if I am missing the boat...
 

WoundedDreamer

Well-Known Member
Same phenomenon is going on right now in Florida. Everyone asking how Disney is set to respond to Epic, while ignoring WDW actually had a much stronger previous decade than Uni (post Diagon Alley). Epic is a move to prevent Universal from ceding its momentum, which it was starting to.
This doesn't feel like the right way of understanding Epic Universe. After a fantastic start to the 2010s that brought new lands, new hotels, new rides, refurbished rides, etc. that transformed Universal Orlando, sometime in the mid 2010s Universal was at a fork in the road. They could either keep expanding their existing parks at the same tempo, or they could build a new gate. The new gate would take years of development and CapEx. In the short-term this would mean fewer new attractions at the existing two parks, but longterm it would be an entirely new canvas to build on.

You're right Disney opened more new attractions in the late 2010s (after a decade of stagnation), but to ignore the fact that Universal was marshaling its forces for a new park would miss the bigger picture. Epic Universe is not a response to Disney's late 2010s building (which itself was a response to Universal's expansions). It's a complete structural change to Orlando's theme park market. Once Epic Universe comes online, we can expect the additions to the existing parks to correspondingly increase as the initial infrastructure spend subsides.

And even with the work Disney has done, Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom need billions to bring their ride experiences up to standard of Disney California Adventure or Tokyo Disney Sea. Their ride rosters don't have enough depth, despite the quality of what is there. I think the fans who are urging Disney to invest to in order to stave off the worst of Epic Universe's impact realize this. Disney needs to protect their weakest parks from feeling the full impact of Universal's momentum.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
When I was younger, I bought into DVC and made 3-4 visits per year with my family. I lived to go there!

Now I'm older and have far more disposable income, yet would not spend a nickel on that aging dump of a theme park.

So tell me if I am missing the boat...

Sounds about right to me. We also own DVC and at least I am having an extremely difficult time justifying any trip there these days. I wouldn't call it a dump, but the way things have been run for a decade has turned my once-stellar opinion into one more befitting someone who feels abused and taken advantage of.
 

GhostHost1000

Premium Member
Sounds about right to me. We also own DVC and at least I am having an extremely difficult time justifying any trip there these days. I wouldn't call it a dump, but the way things have been run for a decade has turned my once-stellar opinion into one more befitting someone who feels abused and taken advantage of.
That’s a good way to put it. I feel the same these days
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
When I was younger, I bought into DVC and made 3-4 visits per year with my family. I lived to go there!

Now I'm older and have far more disposable income, yet would not spend a nickel on that aging dump of a theme park.

So tell me if I am missing the boat...

wait, which aging dump are we referring to? MK?
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
Fate of every long thread, it is. Discussion leads to debate. Debate leads to complaint. Complaint leads to suffering.
And all roads lead to star bores, does Bob know the fans care enough to do that over and over? He should monetize it or something....
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
This doesn't feel like the right way of understanding Epic Universe. After a fantastic start to the 2010s that brought new lands, new hotels, new rides, refurbished rides, etc. that transformed Universal Orlando, sometime in the mid 2010s Universal was at a fork in the road. They could either keep expanding their existing parks at the same tempo, or they could build a new gate. The new gate would take years of development and CapEx. In the short-term this would mean fewer new attractions at the existing two parks, but longterm it would be an entirely new canvas to build on.

You're right Disney opened more new attractions in the late 2010s (after a decade of stagnation), but to ignore the fact that Universal was marshaling its forces for a new park would miss the bigger picture. Epic Universe is not a response to Disney's late 2010s building (which itself was a response to Universal's expansions). It's a complete structural change to Orlando's theme park market. Once Epic Universe comes online, we can expect the additions to the existing parks to correspondingly increase as the initial infrastructure spend subsides.

And even with the work Disney has done, Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom need billions to bring their ride experiences up to standard of Disney California Adventure or Tokyo Disney Sea. Their ride rosters don't have enough depth, despite the quality of what is there. I think the fans who are urging Disney to invest to in order to stave off the worst of Epic Universe's impact realize this. Disney needs to protect their weakest parks from feeling the full impact of Universal's momentum.

That was sort of my point. It’s a bad way of framing the parks and investment in general. This is a cycle where Tokyo and Uni Orlando are unveiling delayed gratification. It feels great now, but it’s sometimes hard to wait for.

The resorts aren’t responding to one another in so far as they are influenced by trends… and both resorts have been chasing the high of Harry Potter for the better part of 15 years now. For better and worse.

Disney needs to maintain its own momentum and has flagged it will. Save corporate raiders derailing the whole thing. Animal Kingdom is in desperate need of more (but at least not fixing, which seems like a rarity last decade, it just needs more). Same with DHS, with a tad more repairs.

The real park that needs fixing and stands the most to lose now is USO. I’m struck with not being surprised if a single thing in that park other than Diagon Alley lasts another 25 years. I wish ET will and probably Mummy in some form, but we’re already swinging around to that last wave of investment needing replacement and that just speaks to what a lack of focus that park has. Simpson’s is going… fast and furious and rip ride rocket are on the chopping block. Dreamworks seems like another half baked stop gap. Even the new Minions stuff doesn’t even seem like it’s got a long term shelf life.

I truly think USO may be the worst of the six majors in Orlando, Pokémon cannot come fast enough.

But back to Disney, I really think this D23 is pretty critical to resetting expectancy and the narrative.
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
That was sort of my point. It’s a bad way of framing the parks and investment in general. This is a cycle where Tokyo and Uni Orlando are unveiling delayed gratification. It feels great now, but it’s sometimes hard to wait for.

The resorts aren’t responding to one another in so far as they are influenced by trends… and both resorts have been chasing the high of Harry Potter for the better part of 15 years now. For better and worse.

Disney needs to maintain its own momentum and has flagged it will. Save corporate raiders derailing the whole thing. Animal Kingdom is in desperate need of more (but at least not fixing, which seems like a rarity last decade, it just needs more). Same with DHS, with a tad more repairs.

The real park that needs fixing and stands the most to lose now is USO. I’m struck with not being surprised if a single thing in that park other than Diagon Alley lasts another 25 years. I wish ET will and probably Mummy in some form, but we’re already swinging around to that last wave of investment needing replacement and that just speaks to what a lack of focus that park has. Simpson’s is going… fast and furious and rip ride rocket are on the chopping block. Dreamworks seems like another half baked stop gap. Even the new Minions stuff doesn’t even seem like it’s got a long term shelf life.

I truly think USO may be the worst of the six majors in Orlando, Pokémon cannot come fast enough.

But back to Disney, I really think this D23 is pretty critical to resetting expectancy and the narrative.
USO is definitely the worst Disney/Uni park in the U.S., not just Orlando. It really needs help. I appreciate the ambition of building Epic, but I think the two existing parks had a lot of needs that should have been addressed first. It’s almost like Disney building a fifth gate now instead of expanding their existing parks.
 

Sectorkeeper71

Well-Known Member
USO is definitely the worst Disney/Uni park in the U.S., not just Orlando. It really needs help. I appreciate the ambition of building Epic, but I think the two existing parks had a lot of needs that should have been addressed first. It’s almost like Disney building a fifth gate now instead of expanding their existing parks.
USO just has zero flow to it at all. The only area with any cohesion is the minions area and even that looks at least from videos to be kinda out of place right at the entrance. I like men and black, diagon alley and mummy, but I really can leave the rest of that park.

I do get why they’re doing the third park though. Trying to stretch the resort into a full week destination with three parks. There’s some decent rumors out there of them adding to both of the existing parks in the near future, so hopefully that helps keep them from slumping too bad when the new park opens.

Though USO is at the point where it feels like it needs a DCA style makeover. I just don’t know if they’re really willing to go there, especially with all the capital tied up in the new park
 

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