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[Casper Gutman]

Actually, they can't. Disney can't just unilaterally decide to raise salaries for new employees because they have a collective bargaining agreement that sets these things. Any change in the salary structure would have to result in a renegotiation of that bargaining agreement. Typically, in cases like these, let's say Disney wanted to raise the starting salary for these positions by $5 an hour. The union might only agree to this if they raised people with x number of years experience $10 an hour. But in any case it would be subject to agreement, requiring lawyers negotiation and fees along that line. The salary structure is a built-in construct of the agreement.

Universal is not subject to this issue because their employees are not unionized. They can set salaries at will. They also Did not lose tens of thousands of people because of travel bans and the termination of a college program.



Well yes, but that's a whole different ball game. Construction workers are not subject to the above collective bargaining agreements, are not dependent on the cultural representation program, etc. Disney hires firms to do the construction. They hire individuals to manage parking trams and to maintain those vehicles.

Ah, so it’s the UNION preventing Disney from paying the wages the market demands. I hadn’t heard that take before. Are tram drivers in the same union as attraction attendants? My understanding is that they weren’t. Also, is their any actual reason to believe the union would block wage increases? Also also, we are more then a year into the staffing shortage - has Disney made any move at all to negotiate with the union? Also also also, even if the union did demand more widespread wage increases, isn’t that exactly how the market is supposed to work in a tight labor environment? Again, it’s endlessly amusing that the thought of a free market benefitting labor is simply inconceivable.

PS: that pesky college program - is that something WDW does out of pure altruism, or is it largely another way to save on labor costs? And if the latter, why is it’s continued absence any kind of rebuttal to the idea that Disney doesn’t want to pay workers what the market demands and is charging guests full price for an under-staffed experience?

 

[mikejs78]

Ah, so it’s the UNION preventing Disney from paying the wages the market demands. I hadn’t heard that take before. Are tram drivers in the same union as attraction attendants? My understanding is that they weren’t. Also, is their any actual reason to believe the union would block wage increases? Also also, even if the union did demand more widespread wage increases, isn’t that exactly how the market is supposed to work in a tight labor environment? Again, it’s endlessly amusing that the thought of a free market benefitting labor is simply inconceivable.

I don't know the particular Union structure of Disney World, and which cast members belong to which unions. I'm speaking from a general collective bargaining standpoint, and the particulars of Disney's situation may be different.

I'm not saying it's the union preventing them from raising rates or that they would be opposed to it. I'm saying that it's not so simple as just deciding to raise rates.

And it's not just like Disney can just go ask the union, can we raise rates? It would typically require a renegotiation, which could take weeks or months, and involve lots of lawyers at astronomical lawyer rates. So companies with unionized employees are typically disincentivized from trying to renegotiate outside of contract renewals, because it usually opens up a whole can of worms and lots of lawyers negotiating points that are not relevant to the situation at hand.

I'm sorry, but your oversimplification of this scenario doesn't line up with reality of the way the world works.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Ah, so it’s the UNION preventing Disney from paying the wages the market demands. I hadn’t heard that take before. Are tram drivers in the same union as attraction attendants? My understanding is that they weren’t. Also, is their any actual reason to believe the union would block wage increases? Also also, we are more then a year into the staffing shortage - has Disney made any move at all to negotiate with the union? Also also also, even if the union did demand more widespread wage increases, isn’t that exactly how the market is supposed to work in a tight labor environment? Again, it’s endlessly amusing that the thought of a free market benefitting labor is simply inconceivable.

PS: that pesky college program - is that something WDW does out of pure altruism, or is it largely another way to save on labor costs? And if the latter, why is it’s continued absence any kind of rebuttal to the idea that Disney doesn’t want to pay workers what the market demands and is charging guests full price for an under-staffed experience?

Again you seem to be operating under these false assumptions that torpedo the entire rest of your argument.

Disney does not pay less than Universal for comparable roles.

Your angle that "Universal is paying market wages and Disney is paying below-market wages" is not grounded in reality.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I don't know the particular Union structure of Disney World, and which cast members belong to which unions. I'm speaking from a general collective bargaining standpoint, and the particulars of Disney's situation may be different.

I'm not saying it's the union preventing them from raising rates or that they would be opposed to it. I'm saying that it's not so simple as just deciding to raise rates.

And it's not just like Disney can just go ask the union, can we raise rates? It would typically require a renegotiation, which could take weeks or months, and involve lots of lawyers at astronomical lawyer rates. So companies with unionized employees are typically disincentivized from trying to renegotiate outside of contract renewals, because it usually opens up a whole can of worms and lots of lawyers negotiating points that are not relevant to the situation at hand.

I'm sorry, but your oversimplification of this scenario doesn't line up with reality of the way the world works.

It seems like you’re just offering up unsubstantiated hypotheticals to try to find excuses for why the worlds premiere entertainment company is choosing to understaff and provide guests a significantly diminished product at grossly excessive prices. The bottom line is that Disney has massive resources and, thus, a huge amount of options and Disney alone - not guests, not unions, not greedy workers - is responsible for the product offered to guests.

 

[mikejs78]

It seems like you’re just offering up unsubstantiated hypotheticals to try to find excuses for why the worlds premiere entertainment company is choosing to understaff and provide guests a significantly diminished product at grossly excessive prices. The bottom line is that Disney has massive resources and, thus, a huge amount of options and Disney alone - not guests, not unions, not greedy workers - is responsible for the product offered to guests.

No, I'm just looking at the reality of how these things work.

If Disney wanted to understaff, they wouldn't be offering signing bonuses or having near constant job fairs.

If Disney wanted to understaff they wouldn't have reinstated the college program and cultural representation program.

If Disney wanted to understaff and cut services to the degree you are mentioning, they would not be continually bringing things back.

Let's see where they are in December. Once the cultural representation program is back and cast members are able to be shifted to other areas, we'll see what still closed and then we can have a conversation.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Again you seem to be operating under these false assumptions that torpedo the entire rest of your argument.

Disney does not pay less than Universal for comparable roles.

Your angle that "Universal is paying market wages and Disney is paying below-market wages" is not grounded in reality.

I’m not arguing that Universal is paying more. I’m making two very simple statements that ARE grounded in reality:

1) Disney is allowing a staffing situation to significantly negatively impact the guest experience. Universal is not.

2) Giant corporations with enormous resources bear the final responsibility for the product they offer customers.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

It seems like you’re just offering up unsubstantiated hypotheticals to try to find excuses for why the worlds premiere entertainment company is choosing to understaff and provide guests a significantly diminished product at grossly excessive prices. The bottom line is that Disney has massive resources and, thus, a huge amount of options and Disney alone - not guests, not unions, not greedy workers - is responsible for the product offered to guests.

There is no such thing as "grossly excessive prices" for any product beyond (maybe) basic food, clothing, shelter, fuel, utilities, and medical care. Consumers have nobody to blame for prices but consumers. If Disney can get $900 a night for Pop Century with no housekeeping, they should charge $900 a night for Pop Century with no housekeeping.

All I ask of Disney is that they clearly disclose what you're getting for what you're paying. If they stated or implied that I'd be getting X service for my nightly rate, I better get X service. For example, they've failed to provide consistent every-other-day trash and towel service, despite promising it, and that's unacceptable. But the lack of daily full housekeeping is disclosed clearly at the time of booking and again at online check-in, so it shouldn't have caught anyone by surprise. You know what you're getting when you buy it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Disney is allowing a staffing situation to significantly negatively impact the guest experience.

Dude the entire country is experiencing a labor shortage. It's in the headlines every single day. Open your eyes! Nothing about this is unique to Disney.

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Universal is not.

I disagree.

Giant corporations with enormous resources bear the final responsibility for the product they offer customers.

Ok, comrade.

 

[Casper Gutman]

No, I'm just looking at the reality of how these things work.

If Disney wanted to understaff, they wouldn't be offering signing bonuses or having near constant job fairs.

If Disney wanted to understaff they wouldn't have reinstated the college program and cultural representation program.

If Disney wanted to understaff and cut services to the degree you are mentioning, they would not be continually bringing things back.

Let's see where they are in December. Once the cultural representation program is back and cast members are able to be shifted to other areas, we'll see what still closed and then we can have a conversation.

Why would we wait for December? Most of the industry returned to normal or something very close to it a year ago. Why should we tie ourselves into knots coming up with excuses for the industry leader, the most prominent entertainment company in the world? Why is the impetus on guests to pay full price AND have to jump through various hoops like park reservations when Disney is offering only a partial product?

If Disney wanted the guest experience to be at pre-pandemic levels, it would be. They aren’t a county fair or local amusement park. The fact that it isn’t either means that the quality of the product being offered isn’t one of Disney’s top concerns or that they are shockingly incompetent. One or the other.

The buck stops with the mouse.

 

[Patcheslee]

I didn’t say fully staffed. I was talking about very basic services, like a parking lot tram. A quick glance around the net seemed to show that Dollywood and Six Flags had both returned to pre-pandemic tram service. If that’s incorrect, let me know.

As for Uni, when I was there a bit less then a year ago, they had resort delivery service, regular housekeeping, a full pre-pandemic entertainment slate (including significant streetmosphere), and all shops open (except the Brown Derby hat shop)… and this was during the off-season. Unless I missed something very significant during a lengthy stay, Universal is not letting any staff shortages effect guest experience. Which is the point.

Oh, and they’re also rapidly building a huge new resort complex, which also takes some manpower.

How many total trams does Dollywood need to operate compared to all the WDW parks?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Most of the industry returned to normal or something very close to it a year ago.

No. It didn't.

"A recent survey found nearly half of U.S. hotels say they are 'severely understaffed.'"
- Chicago Tribune, literally TODAY

 

[Casper Gutman]

Dude the entire country is experiencing a labor shortage. It's in the headlines every single day. Open your eyes! Nothing about this is unique to Disney.

Labor shortage drives fierce competition in Chicago hospitality industry, with cash promises and on-the-spot job offers

When a manager from a short-staffed Chicago-area restaurant skulked into Lucca Osteria in Oak Brook on a recent Friday with a fistful of cash, the brazen poaching of workers seemed straight from th…

www.chicagotribune.com

Relocation reward: If you are looking to make a move in 2023, these US cities are handing out $10,000 or more just for you to set up shop there

The moves don't have to be permanent, and some places provide bonuses specifically for remote workers.

finance.yahoo.com

Expect higher costs, more closures as seasonal worker shortage strains Maine restaurants

Overburdened and understaffed restaurant owners consider wage and menu price hikes to stay in business.

www.pressherald.com

'I've never experienced this': NJ landscaping companies face rising costs, labor shortage

Landscaping companies are affected by rising fuel costs, and while some are affected by a labor shortage, others have avoided it.

www.app.com

Leaked Amazon memo warns the company is running out of people to hire

Unions might not be the tech giant’s biggest labor threat.

www.vox.com

The real labor shortage is looming, and everything we're doing is making it worse

Seven things we can do now to increase the supply of workers and make them more productive

www.marketwatch.com

The labor shortage might be killing your Domino’s Pizza order

“Nobody at Domino’s is happy with our recent performance."

fortune.com

The role of tech amid a national labor shortage

Companies that embrace workflow optimization and digital tools with open arms can be the most likely to overcome the challenges that a nationwide labor shortage brings forth, allowing for longstanding success.

www.fastcompany.com

I disagree.


Ok, comrade.

Oh, this is hilarious. I want to freeze this moment and really tease it out. You are calling me a COMMUNIST because - and let’s be really clear here, because it’s spectacular - I believe multi-billion dollar companies bear responsibility for the products they offer. Amazing.

Please, give me some specific examples of how understaffing is effecting the guest experience at Universal to the same degree it is effecting the guest experience at Disney.

 

[Casper Gutman]

No. It didn't.

"A recent survey found nearly half of U.S. hotels say they are 'severely understaffed.'"
- Chicago Tribune, literally TODAY

You really, really, really want to ignore that I am talking about THE DIRECT IMPACT ON GUEST EXPERIENCE.

 

[Casper Gutman]

How many total trams does Dollywood need to operate compared to all the WDW parks?

Oh, far fewer. They only have one theme park and one water park.

Now, what are Dollywood’s resources compared to Disney’s? What are their ticket prices?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

You really, really, really want to ignore that I am talking about THE DIRECT IMPACT ON GUEST EXPERIENCE.

I am not disputing your assertion that the labor shortage is impacting the guest experience at Walt Disney World. I am disputing your assertion that the labor shortage is impacting the guest experience only or uniquely at Walt Disney World.

Yes, Disney World sucks right now. But look around. Everything sucks right now. Worse than sucks, it sucks and is expensive. So double-sucks. The airport sucks, the airPLANE sucks, the office sucks, the Target sucks, the mail sucks, the Wendy's sucks, the ballpark sucks, the grocery store sucks, the movie theater sucks.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I am not disputing your assertion that the labor shortage is impacting the guest experience at Walt Disney World. I am disputing your assertion that the labor shortage is impacting the guest experience only or uniquely at Walt Disney World.

Again, what major impacts did I miss at Universal?

 

[dreday3]

Again, what major impacts did I miss at Universal?

Maybe you notice it more at Disney because they have 4 parks to staff compared to 2?

I'm not sure what the hotel capacity comparison is though.

 

[DisneyUniversal80]

How many total trams does Dollywood need to operate compared to all the WDW parks?

This is anecdotal, but I was just at dollywood two weeks ago. The staffing is not back to normal. The restaurant we ate at for dinner had half empty tables, and when I asked the hostesses they said they were short to be able to service all of the tables. Short for that day, or just short, I do not know.

The trams were plentiful and we never waited in a line to get on one. That was 30 minutes after park opening, and about 30-45 minutes before it closed.

 

[dmw]

If they cared, they could pay. You can contort as much as you want to explain why Disney mysteriously can’t find tram staff when relatively minuscule places like Dollywood and Six Flags can, but the bottom line is that Disney cares more about keeping wages low then they do about staffing a necessary component of the park. So odd that the invisible hand of the market only seems to ever work in one direction.

The image of Disney as this poor little company buffeted by forces completely beyond their control, unable to afford staff months or even years after the rest of the industry has returned to very close to normal is so transparently silly it’s insulting.

PS: I assume, since WDW is so completely unable to find staff that they can’t offer basic services, they’ve dramatically cut ticket prices to reflect the diminished product being offered, right?

Dollywood is having staffing issues, too. We were there last month and some of the coasters had no staff queuing riders into rows and one even had no one checking the timesaver line.

 

[dmw]

Oh, far fewer. They only have one theme park and one water park.

Now, what are Dollywood’s resources compared to Disney’s? What are their ticket prices?

I don't know the number of parking trams at Dollywood, but the parking situation is MUCH different. The distance from the furthermost parking space at Dollywood to the front entrance is about twice as far as the furthermost parking spot at Epcot. The parking lots at Dollywood wrap around the mountains. It literally is just over one mile of walking from the worst spot in lot D to the park entrance.