News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[mmascari]

We can parse words, but it seems to me that WDW lost power here.

The reality was RCID was controlled by WDW.

What we have now is not the same. There is no one that can convince me otherwise.

It isn't the same, that's true. It's a local government with appointed control instead of one with locally elected control.

However, the million perceived issues that existed were about all kinds of special treatment, rules, rule exclusions, taxing, and other things that RCID let Disney avoid. The change in control doesn't change any of those. In fact, it explicitly doesn't change any of those. Most of them don't actually exist either.

Did anybody really care that only people within the RCID boundary got to elect its board? I thought they cared about all those special advantage RCID gave to Disney.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Claiming all the negative stories, lawsuits, the decades of quotes from county officials are just misinformation isn't going to help you understand what is happening any better.

The reasons they are misinformation has been spelled out, in detail, with citations, repeatedly in this thread.

 

[mmascari]

Disney is tax exempt on their parking garages. How is that fair?

They're not Disney garages. How about that.

RCID (and now CFTOD since that's just a new name) owns the three parking garages located next to Disney Springs.

GIS Link: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?webmap=b1a5e8be7c2a4b2e93f7c41196f48149

You can zoom in and click on each one. They are an island of RCID owned land, along with East Buena Vista Drive that is surrounded by Disney owned land.

A better question might be, was it a good idea for the local government to build three parking garages next to a commercial property? This is a question local governments deal with all the time. Sometimes they build parking lots or town garages, sometimes they don't. In this case, the voters who are governed by RCID and pay taxes to RCID, those who are directly impacted thought it was a good idea and did the project. That same thing happens in local governments all over the country, sometimes they build, sometimes they don't.

 

[el_super]

The reasons they are misinformation has been spelled out, in detail, with citations, repeatedly in this thread.

Yeah at this point I think I'm going to take the actual documented opinions of those from the area over the anonymous postings on the internet.

 

[Disstevefan1]

It isn't the same, that's true. It's a local government with appointed control instead of one with locally elected control.

However, the million perceived issues that existed were about all kinds of special treatment, rules, rule exclusions, taxing, and other things that RCID let Disney avoid. The change in control doesn't change any of those. In fact, it explicitly doesn't change any of those. Most of them don't actually exist either.

Did anybody really care that only people within the RCID boundary got to elect its board? I thought they cared about all those special advantage RCID gave to Disney.

RCID board was handpicked and controlled by Disney.
Today's board was handpicked and controlled by the state.

 

[maxairmike]

Why do people keep acting like Universal couldn't have its own special district if it wanted one? They could have done something similar since the day they opened but they didn't want one because they were too small for it to make sense.

Although, now that they are applying for one, I assume everyone is on board with the Governor appointing who runs it. Can't have the people that voluntarily asked to pay extra taxes so they could provide better services have any say in how that is spent.

I always forget about it until I go looking for development documents, but Universal and SeaWorld are actually a part of a special district as well. The International Drive Business Improvement District was formed in 1992 and stretches from the north end of I-Drive all the way down to 536 and 417.

About The District

The International Drive Master Transit and Improvement District d/b/a International Drive Business Improvement

www.idrivedistrict.com

 

[el_super]

You still haven't pointed to anything that is actually wrong.

No, you have denied the validity of the claims that they didn't pay their fair share of taxes, that they locked out local government from needed resources, strong armed tax officials into misclassifying their tax rates, and continually misrepresented themselves as both apart of and separate from Disney control. What has been said about the district and how they operated for decades is out there and freely available.

Continually claiming that it's misinformation, misleading or just sour grapes doesn't actually make it so.

You want to provide anything to refute any of these claims? Any actual studies thay show what Disney's tax burden would be without the district versus what the district actually pays? Surely this information is freely available right?

Any quotes from Orange County officials? Anything in support?

Where are all the lawsuits from the outside parties impacted by this? The people that want to see the current setup continue? Where are the legions of supporters of RCID coming in to stop this?

 

[mmascari]

RCID board was handpicked and controlled by Disney.
Today's board was handpicked and controlled by the state.

This is the type of statement that is designed to imply something nefarious. Big bad Disney had total control and selected the government. It's true, but highly misleading.

• RCID board was handpicked and controlled by the constituents governed by RCID and within its boundary.
• Today's board was handpicked and controlled by the state, excluding any accountability or input from the constituents governed by RCID and within its boundary.

Those are the same statements. My version shows that the "constituents governed by RCID" have all been disenfranchised.

That all of the constituents of RCID (or at least the vast majority) are Disney is besides the point.

Is it the army that is also within the boundary? Some other small minority? Disney is clearly the largest by many orders of magnitude. Presumably, those others were fine with the arrangement. Otherwise, we would have seen them trying to leave the district. The boundary has changed enough that I cannot imagine they were being kept in the district against their will.

 

[Disstevefan1]

This is the type of statement that is designed to imply something nefarious.

Absolutely not. It's just reality.
When Walt picked central Florida for WDW it was, is and will always be the absolute BEST thing to ever happen to central Florida.
Nothing nefarious, it made total sense to give that kind of control to Disney.

 

[mmascari]

No, you have denied the validity of the claims that they didn't pay their fair share of taxes

You haven't shown any source that shows they're not paying their fair share. Just your assertion. Get a source or go home.

, that they locked out local government from needed resources

Again, one government said another government got a deal instead of them. A judge agreed. Find a real argument here.

, strong armed tax officials into misclassifying their tax rates

Not liking the tax rate they pay to other jurisdictions is completely independent of any RCID function and unrelated. What about your mom isn't a valid issue.

, and continually misrepresented themselves as both apart of and separate from Disney control.

This is an important nuance. One that has been continually abused. RCID is responsible and controlled by the constituents governed by RCID. That Disney is practically the only constituent is by design. This distinction isn't just some technicality or waved away. It is fundamental to understanding the function and structure of RCID.

You want to provide anything to refute any of these claims? Any actual studies thay show what Disney's tax burden would be without the district versus what the district actually pays? Surely this information is freely available right?

The district has no mechanism to reduce Disney's tax burden. It's a special tax district imposing additional taxes to provide services that would normally be covered by other entities. Other entities that Disney still pays taxes too. You haven't shown any tax Disney avoids. The closest you got was that if RCID was within the normal bounds of the sheriff the sheriff would charge them more, but since it is not and they contract directly, the are charged a lower rate. A rate contracted directly. That's not tax avoidance, that's a bad contract that could be changed at any renewal.

Any quotes from Orange County officials? Anything in support?

Where are all the lawsuits from the outside parties impacted by this? The people that want to see the current setup continue? Where are the legions of supporters of RCID coming in to stop this?

Since the district was renamed and not dissolved, any outside impacts are minimal to none. There were lots of statements from Orange County that they did not want to take on the services and debts of RCID that a dissolution would have forced.

 

[flynnibus]

A better question might be, was it a good idea for the local government to build three parking garages next to a commercial property? This is a question local governments deal with all the time. Sometimes they build parking lots or town garages, sometimes they don't. In this case, the voters who are governed by RCID and pay taxes to RCID, those who are directly impacted thought it was a good idea and did the project. That same thing happens in local governments all over the country, sometimes they build, sometimes they don't.

Nah - a more objective view would be is "Is it in the district's benefit and purview to build parking garages vs expecting private industry to provide it?" You can't really use the "the voters who are governed by RCID" justification when it's basically a 1 voter system. You have to instead look at is it really in the communal interest to do this and a proper application of their powers and resources. Obviously it's within their entitlements to do it, so it's only a question of "should they?"

The parking garages are a great example of "perks" of the relationship between Disney and the district. Something that was set out to do - not because it benefits RCID or everyone as a whole - but because it is fiscally advantaged for Disney to do it this way.

So is it a "insider deal"? Absolutely... is it a bad deal? That's where the subjectiveness really comes in.. and the mindset of "it spares other people from bearing the expense", "everyone benefits from them being there" have to be weighed vs negative ideas like lost tax revenue.. and the balance of operations as a whole. Where does the sum really result in? Is this one win for Disney worth all the other tradeoffs where everyone else wins? That's where the balance has to be assessed, and until recently, everyone thought the sum of all the parts was still better than the alternatives.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yeah at this point I think I'm going to take the actual documented opinions of those from the area over the anonymous postings on the internet.

Again, we’ve provided documents and cites. You’re the one who has once again refused.

 

[flynnibus]

This thread needs a PSA...

Don't engage the trolls

 

[lazyboy97o]

You want to provide anything to refute any of these claims? Any actual studies thay show what Disney's tax burden would be without the district versus what the district actually pays? Surely this information is freely available right?

We don’t need a study. The tax information for Orange County and Osceola County has been posted and is available on the relevant tax collector websites as they are public records. Counties can only assess one mileage rate that is applied uniformly across the county.

Any quotes from Orange County officials? Anything in support?

The counties opposed dissolution that would result in giving them more direct control. Why do we have to provide quotes but you don’t have to?

Where are all the lawsuits from the outside parties impacted by this? The people that want to see the current setup continue? Where are the legions of supporters of RCID coming in to stop this?

Outside parties, by being outside parties, tend to lack standing.

 

[el_super]

Nope. You're not making your case and you ignore our info.

So Orange County stated before that had Reedy Creek been taxed at the normal rate, they would be paying 21 million into the law enforcement fund instead of the 10 million they pay directly to the sheriff's office, avoiding 10 million in taxes.

Where is the evidence that says this is a lie?

 

[peter11435]

Sorry you lost your favorite special interest district. Better luck next time.

I think you’re still missing everyone’s actual concerns with this. The loss of Disneys control of RCID is insignificant compared to the larger implications and precedent they have set. This is far larger than just WDW or Disney.

 

[mmascari]

Nah - a more objective view would be is "Is it in the district's benefit and purview to build parking garages vs expecting private industry to provide it?" You can't really use the "the voters who are governed by RCID" justification when it's basically a 1 voter system. You have to instead look at is it really in the communal interest to do this and a proper application of their powers and resources. Obviously it's within their entitlements to do it, so it's only a question of "should they?"

What difference does it matter that there is effectively only 1 constituent?

If Disney Springs was a town center shopping district in some medium size town. Where 50 different companies owed different buildings. The town could be making the exact same decisions. They could decide they wanted those owners to build the parking, they could decide that the town was going to build the parking, they could decide on some joint development project. Find 100 towns and you'll find 100 different answer to that question.

In all of those cases, the decision of the town is going to be made by the representatives elected by the constituents in the town. That in this case, the constituent count is 1 makes no difference at all.

The parking garages are a great example of "perks" of the relationship between Disney and the district. Something that was set out to do - not because it benefits RCID or everyone as a whole - but because it is fiscally advantaged for Disney to do it this way.

It also benefits RCID. A prosperous shopping district is significantly more beneficial than a struggling one. Just look at towns everywhere for examples of this. In each case, is the benefit enough to justify the project is a decision for the constituents.

So is it a "insider deal"? Absolutely... is it a bad deal?

It feels like the argument here is that no single company should be allowed to own an area the size of a small city. That if they're going to do that, people would prefer that none if was public and it was all private property. Move the park gates out to the RCID boarders. Turn Osceola Parkway into a private road. Never have RCID at all, it's just one single monolithic Disney property where everything is private property and none of it public.

I'm not sure how we pick how big is to big then.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So Orange County stated before that had Reedy Creek been taxed at the normal rate, they would be paying 21 million into the law enforcement fund instead of the 10 million they pay directly to the sheriff's office, avoiding 10 million in taxes.

Where is the evidence that says this is a lie?

Why can’t the county just charge $21 million going forward? Seems if they want to receive that amount for the service they could charge that amount.

 

[peter11435]

So Orange County stated before that had Reedy Creek been taxed at the normal rate, they would be paying 21 million into the law enforcement fund instead of the 10 million they pay directly to the sheriff's office, avoiding 10 million in taxes.

Where is the evidence that says this is a lie?

Nobody said that specific point was a lie. The point is that the sheriff could have negotiated whatever rate they felt necessary to provide Disney service. The sheriff didn’t need to provide a discount and sign a bad deal.

 

[el_super]

We don’t need a study. The tax information for Orange County and Osceola County has been posted and is available on the relevant tax collector websites as they are public records.

That's never really been the point. The point has always been whether they were paying their fair share, not the amount that is minimally required by law.

If the impact to Orange and Osceola unties has been greater than the taxes they are able to recover from the district, the answer to that question is... No.. and that's what has been well documented over the decades.

You want to tell me that Orange County's roads and schools and public housing are all proberly supported and funded via the taxes received from RCID... Them show it.

But of course you can't.