News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[flynnibus]

Taxes are not compartmentalized. They have to consider holistically. I'll gladly pay more in real estate taxes if it means I pay no income tax.

You have to look at Disney's entire tax bill. Where is it paying its "fair share" and where is it not?

Except this entire discussion __is__ about a compartmentalized topic - RCID in Florida and it's impact. Not TWDC corporate as a whole and general tax laws.

 

[mmascari]

Taxes are not compartmentalized. They have to consider holistically. I'll gladly pay more in real estate taxes if it means I pay no income tax.

You have to look at Disney's entire tax bill. Where is it paying its "fair share" and where is it not?

In the context of eliminating RCID, the only taxes that would matter are ones that RCID let’s them avoid. Otherwise, eliminating the district has no impact.

 

[flynnibus]

Again, the question was:

Why don’t you actually tell us which taxes they do not pay?​

In response to a comment of "Ok cool I guess you like companies not paying their taxes.".

So let's play your literal game here.. you think Disney's tax bill is lower because they simply aren't paying them? Or is their tax bill lower because of their obligation is lower?

Nevermind the entire discussion was not about how much tax liability TWDC has or should have... but a post denoucing RCID because they claimed it allowed Disney to get out of taxes.

So as you said, you can't look at one post in a compartmental sense, but actually look at the CONVERSATION.

This is not up your usual par.

 

[GoofGoof]

Because Reedy Creek bonds pay out at 4.0% - 5.0% annualized.

WDW would need to pay out higher than 4.0 - 5.0% if they floated the bonds instead of Reedy Creek.

In the near future that may be true. Right now TWDC has $54B of debt on their books and all of it has interest rates under 4%. They are avoiding an additional billion in debt on the balance sheet by having RCID float the bonds instead. That was more significant before the Fox acquisition when debt was much lower for TWDC.

 

[GoofGoof]

Again, the question was:

Why don’t you actually tell us which taxes they do not pay?​

I've now identified two examples where Disney is paying (probably) less than you and I, where Disney is paying less than it's "fair share." The "why" is irrelevant.

In the old days, some used to call this "corporate welfare".

I personally have no issue with any level of government giving tax breaks to companies if they are adding jobs to the economy either locally or nationally within reason. I also don’t think this has much to do with RCID being dissolved but a fun tangent that I hope isn’t viewed as too political. Keeping it light

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I agree to an extent, but that poster is just parroting what the Governor is saying. It’s not like the poster is making stuff up. It‘s been covered on every news outlet that the Governor is saying he has a plan, taxpayers won’t foot the bill and Disney will pay their fair share as punishment for getting involved in politics. So without looking into it if you trust the Governor it seems like Disney is in the wrong and he is making them pay. The problem is digging several inches below the surface it’s easy to see that what the Governor is saying makes no sense and is just political spin.

That's kind of my point, though. The governor is never going to say "actually, this is a bit of a mess and we're going to mostly reinstate the RCID special district" and sympathetic news outlets will never contradict whatever line he does use. So, for the people that probably matter to those who pushed the bill, the spin becomes reality whatever the facts of the matter may be because they probably also don't trust the outlets reporting the negative outcomes.

Again, I do hope cooler heads prevail, but I'm not holding my breath.

That's not really a Disney argument, though.

As I said above, if the Republican party wants to shift their platform to increase corporate tax rates and close tax loopholes, that's absolutely fine -- but it's disingenuous to claim that Disney is somehow paying less tax than other corporations.

If that's the basis for the argument that Disney isn't paying their fair share, then neither is Publix, Comcast, Jabil, etc.

Yes, this is striking me like the ruling style of "for my friends everything, for my enemies the law"... or taxes, as the case may be.

 

[Lilofan]

249 pages in a month.
I know, I know, nothing we say here will make any difference. The powerful will win. The little guy will lose..
But in any event, let’s keep it going!!!!!

Isn't there that saying , if you can't beat em, join them? The powerful and influential may not always win but they sure have the upper hand and they are masters of spinning/manipulating facts, figures and information!

 

[GoofGoof]

That's kind of my point, though. The governor is never going to say "actually, this is a bit of a mess and we're going to mostly reinstate the RCID special district" and sympathetic news outlets will never contradict whatever line he does use. So, for the people that probably matter to those who pushed the bill, the spin becomes reality whatever the facts of the matter may be because they probably also don't trust the outlets reporting the negative outcomes.

Again, I do hope cooler heads prevail, but I'm not holding my breath.


Yes, this is striking me like the ruling style of "for my friends everything, for my enemies the law"... or taxes, as the case may be.

A prolonged court fight could bring out all the issues that we have been talking about and if it goes that path Disney won’t remain quiet. Their PR machine will be spinning this too. Also, a true win means either the tax payers of the counties pay more in taxes or the state eats some of the cost but either way it won’t be a complete victory over just Disney. There will be some collateral damage.

 

[Lilofan]

I think we are basically saying the same thing. The only place we differ is I don’t really think DeSantis cares if he “wins” for real. He’s already won his political gain since they passed this quickly in a shotgun fashion during a special session with no debate and no chance for experts to weigh in on the issues we have been discussing around the debt and the fact that Disney could actually end up paying less in taxes. He’s gained donations and he’s gained the national attention he seeks.

A prolonged court fight could bring out all the issues that we have been talking about and if it goes that path Disney won’t remain quiet. Their PR machine will be spinning this too. Also, a true win means either the tax payers of the counties pay more in taxes or the state eats some of the cost but either way it won’t be a complete victory over just Disney. There will be some collateral damage. Not something DeSantis will want. After the November election is over and before we get to next June if there’s a quiet settlement then the issue dies and life goes on for both sides. As I said in a previous post DeSantis will still claim victory and say he fought Disney and won. In today’s political environment the truth really doesn’t matter much. Mainstream media may report the results and he will just call it fake news. Whether Disney was really taught a lesson or not is irrelevant.

Wonder if the Disney PR machine can successfully navigate moving forward. The one in charge of TWDC PR, Morrell, abruptly " resigned " after less than 4 months in the company and one who is taking on some of the PR duties was hired by Morrell.

 

[GoofGoof]

Wonder if the Disney PR machine can successfully navigate moving forward. The one in charge of TWDC PR, Morrell, abruptly " resigned " after less than 4 months in the company and one who is taking on some of the PR duties was hired by Morrell.

He’s a scapegoat. They had a PR nightmare so you fire the PR guy to show you are doing something. The machine isn’t about one person or even their staff, it’s about money and influence. Disney has allies all over the media world and if they choose to really fully ramp up the machine they call in a bunch of favors and get what they want.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

If he punts it to the courts and loses in court then it’s a public loss. If he negotiates a settlement behind closed doors he can still claim victory even if in reality Disney is basically in the same position and he walks away with very little.

Quiet would be preferable but even a court loss (a year from now) likely results in a back page article.

Unless it ends up on the front page most people won’t see it.

Fans (like us) will see it and discuss it to death but the general public probably won’t even notice.

 

[GoofGoof]

Quiet would be preferable but even a court loss (a year from now) likely results in a back page article.

Unless it ends up on the front page most people won’t see it.

Fans (like us) will see it and discuss it to death but the general public probably won’t even notice.

It’s possible. It depends which courts and how high profile it gets. A 1st amendment lawsuit that potentially goes all the way to the Supreme Court would be an absolute goat rodeo. It’s high risk high reward politically for DeSantis. A legal dispute in FL courts over the bonds or which county has to absorb them would be less high profile.

Either way I stand by my opinion that DeSantis has already gotten pretty much all he’s getting out of this situation. He’s already claimed victory so if he wins in court he just confirms the victory he already took credit for, not much gained. But he could also lose in court. If the state quietly agrees to a compromise that includes either keeping RCID or more likely replacing it with a similar district with virtually the same benefits to Disney then he gets to keep his victory and as you said the real outcome is buried on the back pages and only talked about in narrow political circles and on Disney fan sites.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Please be aware that in 2021, Disney reported paying an Effective Income Tax Rate of 1.0% ($25M) on income of $2.561B.

I suspect most of us paid a higher income tax rate.

Fed or State? 25.6 million? Sounds like a lot more when stated that way but it cannot be looked at like a household expense. Companies pay out a lot of money to employees and contractors, etc. whereas we only buy bread, milk and an occasional pair of shoes.

 

[Brian]

Even high school students are taught the basics of how the 14th amendment bars states from stripping federal rights. this guy can go on about 'I don't agree' - it just proves his ignorance.

I don't think that was his argument. The argument presented by Ellis and others on this forum is that Disney's free speech rights (as granted by the U.S. constitution) were violated by the state of Florida by stripping Disney of the RCID because of Disney's objection to the parental rights bill.

Klavan retorts that Disney is acting as a corporation and enjoys special rights and privileges bestowed upon it by the government, which no individual can possibly enjoy, and no individual or company is especially entitled to. Therefore, the legislature stripping Disney of rights no individual can enjoy, and certainly that Disney (nor any company) is not entitled to under law, is not an issue.

This is different than, let's say, the state of Florida denying a state sales and use tax exemption to a non-profit which meets all criteria established by statute because the party in control of the state government found the organization's political positions to be unsavory. This organization, since it meets all criteria, is entitled to a state tax exemption; Disney and no other company/entity is entitled to a special district

For the record, I still fall on the side of the argument that Ellis presented, but I respect Klavan's argument and found it thought-provoking.

 

[GoofGoof]

I don't think that was his argument. The argument presented by Ellis and others on this forum is that Disney's free speech rights (as granted by the U.S. constitution) were violated by the state of Florida by stripping Disney of the RCID because of Disney's objection to the parental rights bill.

Klavan retorts that Disney is acting as a corporation and enjoys special rights and privileges bestowed upon it by the government, which no individual can possibly enjoy, and no individual or company is especially entitled to. Therefore, the legislature stripping Disney of rights no individual can enjoy, and certainly that Disney (nor any company) is not entitled to under law, is not an issue.

This is different than, let's say, the state of Florida denying a state sales and use tax exemption to a non-profit which meets all criteria established by statute because the party in control of the state government found the organization's political positions to be unsavory. This organization, since it meets all criteria, is entitled to a state tax exemption; Disney and no other company/entity is entitled to a special district

For the record, I still fall on the side of the argument that Ellis presented, but I respect Klavan's argument and found it thought-provoking.

So there are no other special tax districts in FL? Just RCID? That’s where the argument falls through. It’s a great narrative to say that this is some benefit that only Disney has so therefore it’s Ok to revoke it but that in itself is not factually true.

The other part of that argument that is problematic is that the action is being done to silence Disney or punish them for speaking up. That’s the violation, the why is the problem and not the action itself. Nobody is arguing that Disney has a constitutional right to a special district. The state of FL has every right to strip all the special districts in the state from their status if they desire. Where the First Amendment issue comes in is that this particular action is being done to punish someone who spoke out against the current administration publicly. And before someone attempts to spin this by saying that they were looking into this for years that ship has sailed when the Governor told anyone who would listen that this was done as punishment for Disney being woke. This would be the equivalent of firing someone for the color of their skin and then holding a press conference and saying that is why you fired them and then after they file a lawsuit turning around and saying that they were an at will employee so they don’t have a right to that job anyway plus you were considering firing them for a while now For other reasons. You can fire an at will Employee any time and without cause as long as you aren’t discriminating against a protected class.

 

[GoofGoof]

I am not a moderator, but we have been asked not to wander off into discussion of the original bill. Keep it to dissolving RCID and the potential impact to Disney, etc,etc.

 

[Minthorne]

Please be aware that in 2021, Disney reported paying an Effective Income Tax Rate of 1.0% ($25M) on income of $2.561B.

I suspect most of us paid a higher income tax rate.

Isn’t Florida a state with no income tax?

 

[John park hopper]

Isn’t Florida a state with no income tax?

Correct

 

[Vacationeer]

5000! 5000 comment Disney puzzle, lol.

 

[GoofGoof]

Isn’t Florida a state with no income tax?

Correct

No personal income tax on individuals. There is a corporate tax in FL that I believe is still 5.5% on income earned in the state. The tax credits Disney received to move those 2,000 jobs to FL offset the state corporate tax and don’t have anything to do with RCID or property taxes.