News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[kong1802]

But this was definitely not retaliation….

Just funny that someone would wait to see how this guy feels about anything.

 

[GoofGoof]

To be fair, judges in Florida have to run for office and/or seek reelection to retain their seats, but point taken.

Yes, local and state judges but we were talking about this ending up in Federal Court all the way potentially to the Supreme Court.

 

[Lilofan]

Are you talking about this guy?

"In a video posted on Sabatini’s Facebook page that is no longer publicly visible, the state representative from Lake County stood in front of the Disney World marquee as someone held a sign behind him that read “Disney is Satan’s church.”

“It is time for the Disney rat to go to hell,” Sabatini said in the video as he gestured toward an image of Mickey Mouse. “No more woke, communist and corporate tyranny telling we Republicans what to do here in the state of Florida.”

How ironic Sabatini criticing WDW that fuels the huge GDP of FL #1 revenue maker , tourism. I doubt the GOP are not foolish to relive the backwoods mentality, economy , lifestyle of the Sunshine State pre Disney. Sabatini cannot be that clueless in regards of that the medical industry of FL relies on a certain country that one seems a commie for 75% of our daily meds. If Sabatini wants WDW to go somewhere be careful what you wish for. But then again he represents Lake County which includes the Villages, a pro bastion of the GOP, STD capital of FL and a widowers paradise.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are you talking about this guy?

"In a video posted on Sabatini’s Facebook page that is no longer publicly visible, the state representative from Lake County stood in front of the Disney World marquee as someone held a sign behind him that read “Disney is Satan’s church.”

“It is time for the Disney rat to go to hell,” Sabatini said in the video as he gestured toward an image of Mickey Mouse. “No more woke, communist and corporate tyranny telling we Republicans what to do here in the state of Florida.”

Sounds like a real peach.

Isn’t it amazing that the more information we acquire…the more reactionary some use medieval nonsense to fool their followers?

 

[Dranth]

Are you talking about this guy?

"In a video posted on Sabatini’s Facebook page that is no longer publicly visible, the state representative from Lake County stood in front of the Disney World marquee as someone held a sign behind him that read “Disney is Satan’s church.”

“It is time for the Disney rat to go to hell,” Sabatini said in the video as he gestured toward an image of Mickey Mouse. “No more woke, communist and corporate tyranny telling we Republicans what to do here in the state of Florida.”

I bet he is a blast at parties.

 

[GoofGoof]

Harm is different than fraud. Bond fraud usually is associated with intent to deceive. What's happening is very much in the open. Anyone buying a RCID bond knows exactly what they are getting into. And anyone who has bought any financial instrument knows that "past performance is not indicative of future results."

Has the State of Florida adversely affected RCID's ability to issue future bonds? Certainly and RCID might pursue legal recourse. But I would not consider this fraud, and I originally asked you if you thought fraud was being committed.

Please understand that I'm simply trying to provoke a healthy discussion. I sometimes have taken a contrarian position on this thread just so that people consider another point of view.

People bought the bonds which came with a guarantee from the state saying the state won’t harm the municipality’s ability to generate revenue and pay off this debt. Then the state violated that guarantee. Since everyone who bought the bonds knew the guarantee was there (it was in the bond offering) it’s pretty clear cut. Securities fraud doesn’t have to be a Ponzi scheme or elaborate criminal plan. There are many things covered by the SEC under Securities Fraud that are not what you are describing which is more traditional criminal fraud. They are more just technical missteps. Most securities fraud ends up with a fine not a jail cell. We just hear about the big cases that end up with someone behind bars.

In this case I’m not sure what the remedy is for someone that sues. It’s possible the courts would require the state to fulfill their promise and not allow them to dissolve the district until all bonds are paid off. Its also possible they could rule that the state would need to step in and make the bond holders whole by paying financial damages. In that case the state might have to pay the billion dollars to redeem the bonds and then go back to RCID or Orange and Osceola counties since RCID would not exist anymore to try to recover whatever they can. In a corporate case with a parental guarantee on a subsidiary’s debt the 2nd option is most likely where they would go. Because this is a government entity and the state created this breach of contract by enacting legislation I’m not sure how that gets decided. The only viable remedy would be to the first option.

 

[Animal_Kingdom_09]

The applicable statute would be 189.076 (2) since there's no merger of districts:

Unless otherwise provided by law or ordinance, the dissolution of a special district government shall transfer the title to all property owned by the preexisting special district government to the local general-purpose government, which shall also assume all indebtedness of the preexisting special district.

The plain text reading suggests all RCID property would be transferred to Orange and Osceola counties. However, that's tied in with the law that requires a vote by the existing district to dissolve, which the legislature attempted to bypass, so...

Maybe. Although the incorporated cities of Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista may actually be the local general purpose government. All the more reason this is never going to happen...

 

[GoofGoof]

Just for the record, everything I’m saying is pure speculation on my part based on my knowledge of how this works at a corporate level. I’m no expert on government bonds and I’m pretty sure even experts don’t know what will happen since this is very much unchartered territory. I do know that even municipal bonds fall under SEC jurisdiction so if a bond holder does pursue remedies that would be in Federal Court which is much more problematic for the state.

 

[pdude81]

People bought the bonds which came with a guarantee from the state saying the state won’t harm the municipality’s ability to generate revenue and pay off this debt. Then the state violated that guarantee. Since everyone who bought the bonds knew the guarantee was there (it was in the bond offering) it’s pretty clear cut. Securities fraud doesn’t have to be a Ponzi scheme or elaborate criminal plan. There are many things covered by the SEC under Securities Fraud that are not what you are describing which is more traditional criminal fraud. They are more just technical missteps. Most securities fraud ends up with a fine not a jail cell. We just hear about the big cases that end up with someone behind bars.

In this case I’m not sure what the remedy is for someone that sues. It’s possible the courts would require the state to fulfill their promise and not allow them to dissolve the district until all bonds are paid off. Its also possible they could rule that the state would need to step in and make the bond holders whole by paying financial damages. In that case the state might have to pay the billion dollars to redeem the bonds and then go back to RCID or Orange and Osceola counties since RCID would not exist anymore to try to recover whatever they can. In a corporate case with a parental guarantee on a subsidiary’s debt the 2nd option is most likely where they would go. Because this is a government entity and the state created this breach of contract by enacting legislation I’m not sure how that gets decided. The only viable remedy would be to the first option.

Someone earlier in the thread had said that one of the bonds couldn't be paid back early. If that's the case I don't know how #2 would even work.

 

[GimpYancIent]

People bought the bonds which came with a guarantee from the state saying the state won’t harm the municipality’s ability to generate revenue and pay off this debt. Then the state violated that guarantee. Since everyone who bought the bonds knew the guarantee was there (it was in the bond offering) it’s pretty clear cut. Securities fraud doesn’t have to be a Ponzi scheme or elaborate criminal plan. There are many things covered by the SEC under Securities Fraud that are not what you are describing which is more traditional criminal fraud. They are more just technical missteps. Most securities fraud ends up with a fine not a jail cell. We just hear about the big cases that end up with someone behind bars.

In this case I’m not sure what the remedy is for someone that sues. It’s possible the courts would require the state to fulfill their promise and not allow them to dissolve the district until all bonds are paid off. Its also possible they could rule that the state would need to step in and make the bond holders whole by paying financial damages. In that case the state might have to pay the billion dollars to redeem the bonds and then go back to RCID or Orange and Osceola counties since RCID would not exist anymore to try to recover whatever they can. In a corporate case with a parental guarantee on a subsidiary’s debt the 2nd option is most likely where they would go. Because this is a government entity and the state created this breach of contract by enacting legislation I’m not sure how that gets decided. The only viable remedy would be to the first option.

Since RCID was created exclusively for TWDC and to the benefit of TWDC for the management of the its land, it will be interesting to see in all this legal wrangling what obligations evolve for TWDC toward the RCID bond holders.

 

[Prince-1]

Just for the record, everything I’m saying is pure speculation on my part

You just basically described everyone who posted on here who thinks they know what will happen at the end of this crap show.

 

[Animal_Kingdom_09]

That ship sailed. In an effort to get the most Facebook likes they already passed a bill to dissolve the district. Perhaps if the bill went through the normal process and there was debate and there were experts brought in to discuss these very real concerns some better solution would have been reached. Instead we got this goat rodeo. The people pushing this got what they wanted….a political win with their base. As someone posted earlier DeSantis has seen an increase in donations. That’s what this is about, a political win.

The other issue with that plan is that we don’t even know if it’s legal. They can legally dissolve the special district but once created I’m not sure they can just cherry pick that this specific district can no longer issue bonds. They could dissolve RCID and create a new district without the right to issue debt but that would require Disney to approve and as discussed the Mouse has no reason to agree with that.

Bloomberg on redistricting lawsuits

Like I said earlier to @Sirwalterraleigh, in my opinion the political win has nothing to do with Disney or Reedy Creek. RCID was used as a distraction to take everyone's eyes off of the attempt to unwind the "Fair Districts" language. Because of the way it was passed - by a voter amendment - there is no way to change or eliminate the law without another amendment, except to have either the Fl. Supreme Court or SCOTUS rule that it conflicts with the 14th Amendment.

Per the article, "The “Fair Districts” amendment was approved by 63% of Florida voters in 2010. Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) said last month he wants the state’s courts to rule on the language, which he said conflicts with the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution’s 14th Amendment."

If this gets tossed by SCOTUS, this will also toss all of the other "anti-gerrymandering" laws that have been passed by the various states, reverting redistricting back to the respective state legislatures. Control of the House is the long game that is being played, regardless of which side of the aisle you are on.

Bob Chapek just happened to toss out the perfect pitch for DeSantis to take a swing at.

The Florida legislature knows exactly what has to be done to unwind Reedy Creek, or at least the appropriate committee does. The law was written so that it RCID can get it tossed in the Florida courts, thus letting DeSantis also get the political win that he fought Disney but the courts overruled the lawmakers. Win-win.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes, local and state judges but we were talking about this ending up in Federal Court all the way potentially to the Supreme Court.

I honestly can’t see any of the sitting supremes siding with Florida on this. Maybe Alito or Gorsuch if they’re “backed up”

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Bloomberg on redistricting lawsuits

Like I said earlier to @Sirwalterraleigh, in my opinion the political win has nothing to do with Disney or Reedy Creek. RCID was used as a distraction to take everyone's eyes off of the attempt to unwind the "Fair Districts" language. Because of the way it was passed - by a voter amendment - there is no way to change or eliminate the law without another amendment, except to have either the Fl. Supreme Court or SCOTUS rule that it conflicts with the 14th Amendment.

Per the article, "The “Fair Districts” amendment was approved by 63% of Florida voters in 2010. Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) said last month he wants the state’s courts to rule on the language, which he said conflicts with the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution’s 14th Amendment."

If this gets tossed by SCOTUS, this will also toss all of the other "anti-gerrymandering" laws that have been passed by the various states, reverting redistricting back to the respective state legislatures. Control of the House is the long game that is being played, regardless of which side of the aisle you are on.

Bob Chapek just happened to toss out the perfect pitch for DeSantis to take a swing at.

The Florida legislature knows exactly what has to be done to unwind Reedy Creek, or at least the appropriate committee does. The law was written so that it RCID can get it tossed in the Florida courts, thus letting DeSantis also get the political win that he fought Disney but the courts overruled the lawmakers. Win-win.

You’re giving Florida far too much credit here. They aren’t going to “take down woke Disney”…nor will this lead to a free pass on rampant gerrymandering.

The Supreme Court rarely makes such wide judgements…they pick apart/interpret provisions of law. This will be no different.

Maybe 7-2 if it gets to that point. Disney would replace chapek and put the fire out prior to that.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Disney tells investors that Florida is out of line

The company says the state can't dissolve its private government under current circumstances.

www.axios.com

 

[Brian]

From Gov. DeSantis' press secretary:

via Twitter

 

[lazyboy97o]

Since RCID was created exclusively for TWDC and to the benefit of TWDC for the management of the its land, it will be interesting to see in all this legal wrangling what obligations evolve for TWDC toward the RCID bond holders.

Reedy Creek Improvement District was not created exclusively for Disney. Disney isn’t the only landowner in the District. If Disney disappeared the District would continue to exist with the new landowners.

Corporate bonds aren’t municipal bonds. That’s a huge change.

 

[Animal_Kingdom_09]

You’re giving Florida far too much credit here. They aren’t going to “take down woke Disney”…nor will this lead to a free pass on rampant gerrymandering.

The Supreme Court rarely makes such wide judgements…they pick apart/interpret provisions of law. This will be no different.

Maybe 7-2 if it gets to that point. Disney would replace chapek and put the fire out prior to that.

Okay, I have a failure to communicate here. I don't believe for one second that Florida is trying to take down woke Disney. I am saying that DeSantis and the Legislature used that as a big misdirection play, and so far it is working exactly as designed.

Gerrymandering = retained power. That is the end game, and the politicians don't want the voters to interfere.

Obviously, I may be wrong. Maybe this is a ploy by Tallahassee to force Disney to start selling Florida resident annual passes again. DeSantis aspires to be President, and nobody wants to be Prez with a hostile Congress. So why not try and stack the deck in your favor when you have the chance?

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Since RCID was created exclusively for TWDC and to the benefit of TWDC for the management of the its land, it will be interesting to see in all this legal wrangling what obligations evolve for TWDC toward the RCID bond holders.

None. These are municipal bonds. The only tangible connection to WDW is the fact that they are the largest taxpayer in the District - and as a giant corporation with a very small chance of going belly-up in the near future, they would be viewed as a positive for the District (whereas high taxpayer concentration would normally be a negative for a municipality issuing debt). A corporation cannot take on the liability of municipal debt. That would be altering the contract and you can't do that once the bonds are issued.

 

[GimpYancIent]

Reedy Creek Improvement District was not created exclusively for Disney. Disney isn’t the only landowner in the District. If Disney disappeared the District would continue to exist with the new landowners.

Corporate bonds aren’t municipal bonds. That’s a huge change.

Fact: "The Ready Creek Improvement Act was signed into law in May 1967 by Gov. Claude Kirk in response to lobbying efforts by Disney."