News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

flynnibus

Premium Member
Is the some amount of official police activity going on at Disney properties that should really be security guard stuff? Presumably there is still official police activity that will need to go on. Disney should not be contracting for that directly.

Correct - your normal public safety element of policing, that the cities are chartered to provide. But again, that isn't necessarily what Garcia highlighted today.

Easy example. Disney decides that you're being a jerk and wishes to remove you for trespassing. Charging someone with tresspassing and removing them from the property is an official police activity. Asking you to nicely leave is a security guard function. But, if they're a huge jerk and will not volunteerily go, forcing their removal is an official police responsiblity. A directly Disney funded security guard (as it cannot be a private police force) that forceably removes you will be guilty of assulting you. An official government police force that hand cuffs and drags you away by force will not be guiltly of assult as you'll be resisting arrest.

Again, this isn't really what was highlighted today. You're talking about a normal police call. Something that can still be covered even with reduced staffing of a policing contract... and even without proactive police presence.

Disney has a heightened police presence during their operating hours above and beyond normal policing. How much of that is by choice of the counties or via contractual is something we aren't really privy to, but is most certainly a combination of both.

The police can't just hang out there and force a bill on Disney. And they (today) can't apply some requirement that Disney hire all that same additional police presence. The solution they have today is obviously very much at Disney's bequest and benefit.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I think I asked that earlier, I'm just reading what was reported here and it isn't clear what that $8M refers to.

Just watch it - time cued -

Which gets to this question then:

Is CFTOD suggesting that Disney has been using official police capacity for security guard resposbilibties to the tune of $8M a year?

No, it simply said the district was paying 8 million in police overtime that was only being used for Disney properties. No more, no less.

Paying for actions via tax conveys the abiltiy for some actions to be accomplished while paying for private security restricts what actions can be done. A priviate security force cannot charge someone with a crime.
I have no idea what relevance that has to the post being responded to. The question was 'what benefit does disney get for paying for the police via the district instead of directly'. In both cases, the hired entity is still the same Sheriff, who still has the same authority, regardless if he was being paid by a district contract, or by Disney paying the Sherriff's office for their services.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
They're just getting out of the middle. They'll expect Disney to contract things itself.

Note we haven't seen the budget to see if they are getting out of contracting the counties all together (unlikely) - the quote from Garcia was about OVERTIME spending for police presence at Disney-exclusive properties.



Not what his statement was - nor (to my knowledge) have we seen the actual proposed budget. Am I wrong?
According to Garcia the L’Enfant Plan wasn't a thing. Cutting $8 million is a supermajority of the current spending levels.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
The county sheriff’s departments can also respond. They have overlapping jurisdiction. There are some places where FHP ends up handling most cases and others where the county does.
They can and do - but the reporting and investigation falls to FHP.

They respond as in, "is everyone ok? no injuries", call Fire/EMS, and park behind with lights on while FHP and fire/EMS arrive.

But unless something has changed since 2021 (the last accident I was involved in - as a passenger), county police don't report or investigate.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Just watch it - time cued -

Looks like the embed is turned off and it lost the time cue when going to youtube. Thanks for cuing it up, not your fault they broke it.

No, it simply said the district was paying 8 million in police overtime that was only being used for Disney properties. No more, no less.
Interesting. I hear that as the police force is understaffed for the level of service required.

I have no idea what relevance that has to the post being responded to. The question was 'what benefit does disney get for paying for the police via the district instead of directly'. In both cases, the hired entity is still the same Sheriff, who still has the same authority, regardless if he was being paid by a district contract, or by Disney paying the Sherriff's office for their services.
It matters because it's not the same. The Sheriff cannot just go out and offer a private policing force to anyone.

Lots of companies hire off duty police to act in a security function. If they were funneling that type of arrangement through a tax structure, I would agree that it is incorrect. Likewise, if they were using official police staff to peform security officer responsiblities, I would agree that is incorrect. Both of those would look like some type of financial fraud.

Just like everything else related to Disney and the District, the technical differences and details matter.

The ability to police, and take actions that are restricted to the police is a government monopoly. Different government entities can contract with each other to provide that service explicitly because they are both government entities. A private company cannot hire the police to perform policing actions. The fact that they're highering a government actor doesn't covey that right and the government entity isn't able to sell that rigth to someone who doesn't have it already. Likewise, the government entity responsible for the policing function cannot deny performing that fucntion if you do not pay for it privately. The benifite Disney gets by paying for policing via taxes instead of directly is specifically the ablity for police actions to occur at all.

For instance, I live in an unincorpated county area. If someone decides to setup a campsite on the boarder between us and our neighbor, and we both call the police to report trespasses along with pressing charges to have them removed. There's not any choices here. The county is responsible for the police responsibilty. They don't get to say, you didn't pay us directly so we're not doing it. My neighbor doesn't get to say they paid extra to get better service. I don't get to pay so I get service and the neighbor doesn't. If the campers aren't actually on my property, just close, I don't get to pay the police to act in an official police capactity and prevent them from entering my property. I could pay the police to act in a private capacity as a security guard to discourage the campers from entering my property. In that private capactiy, they'll exhaust what they can do at some point and require non contracted service provided as part of a goverment function to take official police actions.

Walt Disney World is a huge area with a huge quantity of visitors. Disney owns most of the stuff people visit within that area. People do stupid stuff that requires the police to take action instead of private security. That a large number of those police actions take place on Disney property is't a surprise. It's where the people are after all.
 

rangerbob

Well-Known Member
They can and do - but the reporting and investigation falls to FHP.

They respond as in, "is everyone ok? no injuries", call Fire/EMS, and park behind with lights on while FHP and fire/EMS arrive.

But unless something has changed since 2021 (the last accident I was involved in - as a passenger), county police don't report or investigate.
It must have changed. I was on hwy 50 when some moron slammed into me as I was sitting at a red light. City of Winter Garden took care of everything.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
The county sheriff’s departments can also respond. They have overlapping jurisdiction. There are some places where FHP ends up handling most cases and others where the county does.

County sheriff's offices have jurisdiction. I live in an unincorporated area of my county. LCSO respond to everything - accidents, 911, etc.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
There is almost no chance anything gets done through the municipalities. That’s a land mind.
What are the other options?

Providing police services is a government function.

One of these is on the hook to provide the service:
Tax District
Municipality
County
State

Is there another one, some other government entity that has responsibilty? Wasn't it said earlier that the creation of a municipality transfered this responsbility from the county to the municipality? And, I presume the municipality then transfered it to the district.

This all leaves us with some confusing and conflicting information.
  • Either the district is pulling back from providing police service and it needs to be taken up by another government entity or they're not.
  • Either the police are currently providing non police service on Disney property or they're not.
The assumptioin that the police are providing a non police servcie on Disney property and that the district will no longer pay for that doesn't make much sense. That would be financial fraud on many levels.

The assumption that a private company should pay for police (not security guard) service or they don't get it also doesn't make any sense.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
What are the other options?

Providing police services is a government function.

One of these is on the hook to provide the service:
Tax District
Municipality
County
State

Is there another one, some other government entity that has responsibilty? Wasn't it said earlier that the creation of a municipality transfered this responsbility from the county to the municipality? And, I presume the municipality then transfered it to the district.

This all leaves us with some confusing and conflicting information.
  • Either the district is pulling back from providing police service and it needs to be taken up by another government entity or they're not.
  • Either the police are currently providing non police service on Disney property or they're not.
The assumptioin that the police are providing a non police servcie on Disney property and that the district will no longer pay for that doesn't make much sense. That would be financial fraud on many levels.

The assumption that a private company should pay for police (not security guard) service or they don't get it also doesn't make any sense.

To me, it was no different than what Publix supermarkets do in Florida. They pay for LE to be present at their stores in the evening.

Like I said, Garcia is an idiot if he thought TWDC paying OCSO to provide services was some sort of scam or nefarious.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
According to Garcia the L’Enfant Plan wasn't a thing. Cutting $8 million is a supermajority of the current spending levels.
What I find more disconcerning from his whole transparency pulpit is...

Today they had a set a max mil rate due to the TRIMs timetable - which says they have to share their max millage rate 35 days after the assessor sets the values. The board voted based on a presentation (and unless shared elsewhere I didn't see, no other supporting detail on the proposed budget) that literally had a 4 line expenses and revenue summary. YET, from Garcia's own remarks, he has other info about the proposed budget. They voted on a revenue model without any transparency on what their expenses are really coming from. Because the proposed budgets won't goto them for some weeks.

For someone who keeps beating the horse about transparency... I'd love to hear how the Board members felt confident they could set that revenue target based on the single slide a 5min readout they heard today.
 

Figgy1

Well-Known Member
To me, it was no different than what Publix supermarkets do in Florida. They pay for LE to be present at their stores in the evening.

Like I said, Garcia is an idiot if he thought TWDC paying OCSO to provide services was some sort of scam or nefarious.
Serious question. Do any of those involved have any idea of the size and scope of RC? IMHO they're acting like it's the size and scope of a single Publix store
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
To me, it was no different than what Publix supermarkets do in Florida. They pay for LE to be present at their stores in the evening.

Like I said, Garcia is an idiot if he thought TWDC paying OCSO to provide services was some sort of scam or nefarious.

They do it in Georgia too. There's almost always a uniformed police officer at the Publix near me in Atlanta.
 
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mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
County sheriff's offices have jurisdiction. I live in an unincorporated area of my county. LCSO respond to everything - accidents, 911, etc.

Not for the reporting of an accident, only for insuring that the victims are safe until FHP arrives.

It's been this way for years, and as recently as 2021.

I'm still searching for the law or policy, but on quickie - on the OC Sherrifs Office page, if you wan to report a traffic accident, it clearly tells you to call FHP: https://www.ocso.com/e-report
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
To me, it was no different than what Publix supermarkets do in Florida. They pay for LE to be present at their stores in the evening.
To do what though?

Just to stand there near the exit, in uniform, look menacing, discourge someone from stealing by shear force of will, maybe beat someone as part of the store's liability insurance exposure?

Alternatively, are they hand cuffing and dragging off to jail shop lifters, while being protected from liability by qualified immunity?

I completely support Publix and Disney's rights to the first. If that is what Disney is also doing while using taxing and goverment to fund it, that's tax fraud and shoudl be handled as such.

If its the second, that's a government failure and scandal. If it's the second because crime is up and the police are being proactive without charging, no problems at all.

Private enterprise doesn't get to pay directly for actual police service. It's not a thing that is for sale. They may frequently pay for the appearence of police service, but not actual service. In most cases, the appearence is all that is needed.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
To do what though?

Just to stand there near the exit, in uniform, look menacing, discourge someone from stealing by shear force of will, maybe beat someone as part of the store's liability insurance exposure?

Alternatively, are they hand cuffing and dragging off to jail shop lifters, while being protected from liability by qualified immunity?

I completely support Publix and Disney's rights to the first. If that is what Disney is also doing while using taxing and goverment to fund it, that's tax fraud and shoudl be handled as such.

If its the second, that's a government failure and scandal. If it's the second because crime is up and the police are being proactive without charging, no problems at all.

Private enterprise doesn't get to pay directly for actual police service. It's not a thing that is for sale. They may frequently pay for the appearence of police service, but not actual service. In most cases, the appearence is all that is needed.
You get the actual service. You’re not just paying someone to stand there in a uniform. They are still acting as law enforcement.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Looks like the embed is turned off and it lost the time cue when going to youtube. Thanks for cuing it up, not your fault they broke it.

Jump to 1:34:34 - it's not youtube that broke the timestamp link... it's the forum's processing of youtube links - removing hyperlinks for previews only :( in doing so the only link available 'watch on youtube' doesn't include timestamps in the original URL.

Interesting. I hear that as the police force is understaffed for the level of service required.

Not necessarily. When private entities do things that require more police presence, that burden is often put to the private entity to fund or provide. How depends on the kind of activity it is and what regulation it goes through. For instance, an event permit process may require them to provide the policing to get the permit. A zoning application may require them to provide the services to get approval, etc.

Where it gets messier is when something is a by-right activity. And in the case of something existing, it's hard to tack on after the fact. Here, Disney and the District could have been paying for additional staff based on activity or threat levels above and beyond the normal baselines. Paying overtime doesn't necessarily mean 'understaffed' -- it usually means more shifts were used and they had to pay overtime to get the bodies.

It matters because it's not the same. The Sheriff cannot just go out and offer a private policing force to anyone.
Yes, they can. The officers hired through the off-duty programs as 'Extra-Duty' shifts retain their regular policing powers. They are not just trained goons - they still retain their normal powers. Of course officers can also be hired in non-policing roles... but that's not to their benefit.

Lots of companies hire off duty police to act in a security function. If they were funneling that type of arrangement through a tax structure, I would agree that it is incorrect. Likewise, if they were using official police staff to peform security officer responsiblities, I would agree that is incorrect. Both of those would look like some type of financial fraud.

There isn't really anything incorrect either way - because the District could have made legitimate arguments of why both law enforcement and non-law enforcement roles would be necessary public safety needs that benefit the district's interests and within their delegated authority with the cities.

The only delta here is the sweetheart arrangement between Disney and the District.. which we've already covered ad nauseum. Besides, public safety at large public places (no matter who the business is) is an easy explanation.

The ability to police, and take actions that are restricted to the police is a government monopoly. Different government entities can contract with each other to provide that service explicitly because they are both government entities. A private company cannot hire the police to perform policing actions.
They can and do - but what maybe is the distinction in your statement is they don't perform policing actions at the behest of who hires them, they do so within their established appointment and jurisdiction. You don't hire the police to be 'your private police' -- you hire the police to be there (vs elsewhere) and cover specific responsibilities.

You are going down this path as if the off-duty are hired to be mercenaries doing Disney's bidding... that's not how it works. When you hire off-duty police to work as police - they are infact still police, and will act as such. Just with specific areas of interest, time, and responsibilities.

This has nothing to do with the money coming from a private entity or gov. These officers are working inconjunction with the approval of their employer.

For instance, I live in an unincorpated county area. If someone decides to setup a campsite on the boarder between us and our neighbor, and we both call the police to report trespasses along with pressing charges to have them removed. There's not any choices here. The county is responsible for the police responsibilty. They don't get to say, you didn't pay us directly so we're not doing it. My neighbor doesn't get to say they paid extra to get better service.
I honestly have no idea where you are going with all this.

If you hired an off-duty officer to work as law enforcement on your property, he could infact cite someone for tresspass. You would get a benefit because your response time would be much better. If you didn't hire them, you could still call the police for service, and the responsible jurisdiction would respond, and the outcome would be the same... but it would take a lot longer.

I could pay the police to act in a private capacity as a security guard to discourage the campers from entering my property. In that private capactiy, they'll exhaust what they can do at some point and require non contracted service provided as part of a goverment function to take official police actions.

Yes, and that's the difference between hiring an off-duty police to work as police... vs hiring 'bob' as a non-law enforcement role or just 'bob' directly. But if 'bob' is an off-duty officer, he can still act as an officer within the laws of his jurisdiction. But that would be Bob just acting on his own, not as your employee.
 

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