Question about Service Dogs

[Goofyernmost]

I'm definitely not talking about the snake. I totally think you were right and your bus company was wrong. A service animal is trained to do a task and there is no way you can truly train a snake! This is also why emotional support animals do not have the same access rights as service animal (they are not trained to do anything specific for the person), but it's a little harder for people to discern the difference when it's a dog.

I was actually referencing your first statement about having experienced unruly "service" dogs on your bus. I hope CMs realize that is part of the law, as well. Yes, they are animals, so even a service dog can get spooked and bark or be sick and have an accident, but they should never be putting anyone in danger. (Although some people think every dog is a danger. I've experienced that when my dog was just laying under a table, sleeping, and someone screams about the "vicious" dog!)

I know that and I also didn't say that I threw them off, I waited to see what would happen, but, if it had escalated I would have reacted. That didn't stop the situation of transferring my concentration while driving in traffic. Please give me credit for being able to identify a real threat from a possible one.

 

[Gabe1]

Absolutely true but the ability to control a situation AFTER someone is injured is NOT the way to deal with anything. I will always rule in favor of being proactive instead of reactive. With my story about the snake. I never denied the owner a ride, it was the snake that was going to take alternate transportation. If the symptoms are recognized at a convenient time things can be done, however if you are driving down a busy city street and the situation presents itself, there is little that can be done in time to prevent harm coming to an innocent person or child.

Basically you can't find solutions for hypothetical issues. The ADA laws state service dogs must be allowed to accompany a person with a disability. Services cannot be denied in a taxi, bus or an airplane. So the discussion of being proactive is mute. Anyone can all have fears or prejudices of the service dogs but the reality is Service animals are here to stay.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Basically you can't find solutions for hypothetical issues. The ADA laws state service dogs must be allowed to accompany a person with a disability. Services cannot be denied in a taxi, bus or an airplane. So the discussion of being proactive is mute. Anyone can all have fears or prejudices of the service dogs but the reality is Service animals are here to stay.

Again Gabe, I wasn't implying that there was anything that I could do about it. I was concerned because there isn't. Let them get hurt then we can do something. A rule of thumb that has caused a lot of unnecessary pain to a lot of people over the years. The only time I ever denied anyone was the snake incident and, frankly, I don't care what you, ADA or the Queen of England thinks, I am not going to get on the bus with that particular animal free to roam at will. I have rights too, however, quite often ignored for the benefit of others.

I do not in any way, shape or form want to prevent REAL service animals from being used and accommodated. I want a simpler solution to preventing the fakers from enjoying an unwarranted exception. If we, untrained drivers, can spot a fake almost instantly, there is no reason why it cannot be controlled. Agreed service animals, rightfully, are here to stay, but it needs more regulation to help protect the rest of the community.

 

[Gabe1]

I'm not totally positive what the average salary is as we have several hundred employees with very different jobs. However, the entry level position for those aspiring to become guide dog instructors is probably about $30,000 at this point. The entry position has you working in the kennels and also with the vet staff and some basic work with the training department. The salaries go up quite a bit as you are promoted, but it is a nonprofit, so we aren't in the job for the money!

The high majority of any large service dog school IS going to be the volunteers, as all are non profits. While we have 250 or so employees, we have over 1200 volunteers.

Our dogs are completely free of charge and most large schools are the same (or they might have a very small fee less than $1000). This includes no charge to our clients for spending about a month being trained at our residential facility.

Our credentials are individualized to our school,but the International Guide Dog Federation has to approve of our process. In the state of California, where the largest guide dog school in North America is located, the state has requirements and there are colleges that offer training for this type of work.

Thank you! It pretty well verifies what I thought. It be easy enough to pull the 501 to see the not for profit statement if I needed more info. My DDs school is all volunteers and because it is the premier school for students with disabilities world wide they don't have issues with finding volunteers at all levels of training. This morning the one Pup that was with a girl in a wheelchair and my DD near by was still having issues with focus
and being a tad too social with campus students. She said it was so sweet. It has been fun for her to watch other pups grow from puppy training to 2 years in the program and starting to be placed.

The certification is always going to be an issue for some. Anytime each Pup is self certified by an organization no matter what the guidelines call for will be an issue for some. Me, I have the utmost respect for service dogs of all types. The service dog for the 6 year old autistic student in our inclusion classroom demonstrates to me how amazing service dogs are to people with disabilities. This particular dog was not trained by a service organization, he was trained by a well thought of private trainer in Wisconsin where the pup lived for 4 months and when that was complete training with the 6 year old and pup. The Pup sticks to the student like glue and the student has made strides that nobody could have foreseen in a years time all because of the Dog. I am also amazed by service dogs for those who are seizure prone and dogs trained for diabetics that have dips in blood sugars, especially children with type 1 diabetes. These pups go through a whole different process beyond their obedience training. Unfortunately I see these people with these service animals endure all sorts of remarks. It is that invisible disability thing.

But I believe I'm a softy to start with, giving up my original professional career and starting my own (dog related business) over 20 years ago. There are always going to be people in WDW or other places that have strong opinions against service animals. Some questioning guests with invisible disabilities will be the easiest targets. I just can't wrap my brain around the need for layering on a governmental licence or taking the service dog to a governmental testing station to prove the dog meets some governmental standard. That would be a real financial burden and ultimately not likely pushing out better service dogs as a result.

 

[Gabe1]

Again Gabe, I wasn't implying that there was anything that I could do about it. I was concerned because there isn't. Let them get hurt then we can do something. A rule of thumb that has caused a lot of unnecessary pain to a lot of people over the years. The only time I ever denied anyone was the snake incident and, frankly, I don't care what you, ADA or the Queen of England thinks, I am not going to get on the bus with that particular animal free to roam at will. I have rights too, however, quite often ignored for the benefit of others.

I do not in any way, shape or form want to prevent REAL service animals from being used and accommodated. I want a simpler solution to preventing the fakers from enjoying an unwarranted exception. If we, untrained drivers, can spot a fake almost instantly, there is no reason why it cannot be controlled. Agreed service animals, rightfully, are here to stay, but it needs more regulation to help protect the rest of the community.

Me, for the record, am not in favor of more government or more regulations.

I work with dogs everyday and have owned my fair share over the years. I have had hundreds of animals come through my home from the time my DD was 4 and she is about to graduate college. I've yet to be bitten nor has my DD, my neighbors or their children. When I worked at a Vet's office, I was bit multiple times and they are licensed. I'm not saying that it could never happen because they are animals and regulations are not a guarantee of greater safety. But at a certain point imagination and fear take control over logic. Adding more regulations to my business would not have made my business safety record better nor would it guarantee something not happening in the future. The government is riddled with unwarranted and failed regulations for decades from prohibition to no child left behind.

It is unfortunate that some people pull cons but regulations and adding government does not have a history of making situations better. When governmental regulations are added it just opens the doors for governmental fraud. Our prisons have our congressman, governors, city, state leaders and employees behind bars for using their positions to commit fraud, it never seems to end even with regulations. Putting Service Dogs in the hands of government in the long run would likely do nothing. I look in the newspaper daily and find government employees being charged with shake downs and kick backs. Service Dogs deserve more respect than to be thrown into that den.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Me, for the record, am not in favor of more government or more regulations.

I work with dogs everyday and have owned my fair share over the years. I have had hundreds of animals come through my home from the time my DD was 4 and she is about to graduate college. I've yet to be bitten nor has my DD, my neighbors or their children. When I worked at a Vet's office, I was bit multiple times and they are licensed. I'm not saying that it could never happen because they are animals and regulations are not a guarantee of greater safety. But at a certain point imagination and fear take control over logic. Adding more regulations to my business would not have made my business safety record better nor would it guarantee something not happening in the future. The government is riddled with unwarranted and failed regulations for decades from prohibition to no child left behind.

It is unfortunate that some people pull cons but regulations and adding government does not have a history of making situations better. When governmental regulations are added it just opens the doors for governmental fraud. Our prisons have our congressman, governors, city, state leaders and employees behind bars for using their positions to commit fraud, it never seems to end even with regulations. Putting Service Dogs in the hands of government in the long run would likely do nothing. I look in the newspaper daily and find government employees being charged with shake downs and kick backs. Service Dogs deserve more respect than to be thrown into that den.

I agree with you completely, but, in this case the directives and requirements come from the government. I'm OK with that as well, but, it needs to consider everyone, not just a few. When the rights of one group negate the rights of another, and that situation is enforced by the government, then it is the responsibility of the government to ensure that all people are protected equally. If that means that those in need might need to have some way of identification to separate them from the people that are all to willing to compromise others for their own personal desires/gains then apparently it is OK it is time for the government to rectify that wrong.

 

[Gabe1]

I agree with you completely, but, in this case the directives and requirements come from the government. I'm OK with that as well, but, it needs to consider everyone, not just a few. When the rights of one group negate the rights of another, and that situation is enforced by the government, then it is the responsibility of the government to ensure that all people are protected equally. If that means that those in need might need to have some way of identification to separate them from the people that are all to willing to compromise others for their own personal desires/gains then apparently it is OK it is time for the government to rectify that wrong.

I get your personal stance but unfortunately that is not the how the Federal Government operates. They protect privacy rights and enforce the American With Disability Act with vigor and that means the general public must adjust. We cannot pick and choose when we will and when we will not follow the law.

I voted to cancel band for our students because our budget expenses for students with disabilities line items are escalating beyond the growth of our budget. I or we as a board are Mandated by the government to provide services to the students with disabilities. As an example the young boy with the dog I mentioned has a one on one aide. We also have a student on a ventilator, we must hire a one on one nurse to be with that student from the time he gets on the bus until the bus drops him back home and hire a disability bus for him. Those expenses are a drop in the bucket, our disability expenses are 20% and growing, of our budget. So Band went and likely half of our sports next fall. Agree or not we follow the laws and if that steps on the general student body that is something we must and should do. Service dogs and privacy rights of their owners are no exception to ADA, they are here to stay and growing in numbers.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I get your personal stance but unfortunately that is not the how the Federal Government operates. They protect privacy rights and enforce the American With Disability Act with vigor and if that means the general public must adjust. We cannot pick and choose when we will and when we will not follow the law.

I voted to cancel band for our students because our budget expenses for students with disabilities line items are escalating beyond the growth of our budget. I or we as a board are Mandated by the government to provide services to the students with disabilities. As an example the young boy with the dog I mentioned has a one on one aide. We also have a student on a ventilator, we must hire a one on one nurse to be with that student from the time he gets on the bus until the bus drops him back home and hire a disability bus for him. Those expenses are a drop in the bucket, our disability expenses are 20% and growing, of our budget. So Band went and likely half of our sports next fall. Agree or not we follow the laws and if that steps on the general student body that is something we must and should do. Service dogs and privacy rights of their owners are no exception to ADA, they are here to stay and growing in numbers.

No, I think that they can change. I'm not expecting them too, but there is no reason why they cannot. It's a simple change in wording and requirement that doesn't cost the government anything of substance to do. I need, I guess, to reiterate that I am not expecting that they will change but I think it is a classic example of how the government operates. Set up requirements that someone else has to carry through and then walk away faintly whispering...handle it! Not my problem anymore!

 

[Gabe1]

No, I think that they can change. I'm not expecting them too, but there is no reason why they cannot. It's a simple change in wording and requirement that doesn't cost the government anything of substance to do. I need, I guess, to reiterate that I am not expecting that they will change but I think it is a classic example of how the government operates. Set up requirements that someone else has to carry through and then walk away faintly whispering...handle it! Not my problem anymore!

Just don't sit there, do something, make a difference.

It doesn't have to be about the "they's" in government. You feel so strongly about the Dogs and ADA, stand up and do something about it. Complaining does nothing. Do what I did. Make a difference, get a petition and run for public elected office if you genuinely want to see change. If you really believe these ADA laws and privacy laws need to change because they are negating your rights just don't complain, do something rather than blaming the "they's" of the country. There is nothing like putting your full name, address and phone number out there to garner support to your cause.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Just don't sit there, do something, make a difference.

It doesn't have to be about the "they's" in government. You feel so strongly about the Dogs and ADA, stand up and do something about it. Complaining does nothing. Do what I did. Make a difference, get a petition and run for public elected office if you genuinely want to see change. If you really believe these ADA laws and privacy laws need to change because they are negating your rights just don't complain, do something rather than blaming the "they's" of the country. There is nothing like putting your full name, address and phone number out there to garner support to your cause.

No, that's a young persons crusade. I am retired, fake service dogs are no longer my problem. I still get upset about it, but I am no longer living it. It's up to the under 65 crowd to fight that fight now. I did fight it in a way when I refused the snake. I was willing to lose my job over somebody attempting to take away my rights. It was a victory, a small one, but one none the less. I just hate to see all those people put in a position of having to make choices between right and wrong all the while knowing that they will not be backed up in their efforts. It easily turns into a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

 

[Gabe1]

No, that's a young persons crusade. I am retired, fake service dogs are no longer my problem. I still get upset about it, but I am no longer living it. It's up to the under 65 crowd to fight that fight now. I did fight it in a way when I refused the snake. I was willing to lose my job over somebody attempting to take away my rights. It was a victory, a small one, but one none the less. I just hate to see all those people put in a position of having to make choices between right and wrong all the while knowing that they will not be backed up in their efforts. It easily turns into a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

We have 38 US Senators over the age of 65 and older, up to a few at the 80 year marks, plenty of time to stand up and make a difference.

 

[RunDisneyGoer]

I am sure that someone has already address this, but remember that Federal Law trumpets state law, so just because the law in FL does not cover mental impairments under their law does not mean they are not covered. The only thing it means is...if the person or company is not up on the Federal law (which tends to happen...experienced) the state police cannot come and enforce the federal law they can only enforce the state law. I had this happen to me in Monroe, LA at a waffle house. I filed with the ADA against the waffle house and because the federal law requires you to work things out with divisions like police departments I accepted their apologizes and did not file against them. Waffle house in LA is sorry they were not up on the Federal law for sure.

I agree with exposing animals to hot places...this happened to me in FL last year at WDW while going to run the WDW marathon. It was 20 degrees hotter than it was supposed to be. My poor service animal got hot just waiting a short time for me to cross the finish line. I thought it was interesting how many people thought he actually ran with me for 26.2 miles (since they could barely keep the runners hydrated). On our trip it remained hot and so my service animal spent a lot of time in the hotel. When this happens I have back up of medication dose to compensate for any problems I might have plus my husband and friends were with me the whole time. The only time he came out was at night when my husband and I renewed our vows. He rode his favorite ride which is Small World (a total hit for me since that song drives me crazy ).

I don't know about everyone else, but I think when owning a service animal you need to educated and then just smart about everything you do. Also, remember that the Federal law only applies to places of business or other areas where the public is allowed to go. So airlines are able to have different policies and do allow emotional support animals onto planes. Hospitals my service animals as been with me several times. I went into surgery (not a place for the public, so he did not go). I really dislike when people chime in without first knowing everything. So it is definitely okay to give your opinion, but just because you did a quick google search does not mean you know everything about it. Also, the reason that Disney has in place the rules and restrictions they do that accommodate service animals is because they do not want to deal with any issues at the Federal level. The ADA law requires that businesses make "reasonable accomodations" for people with disabilities and a service animal is a reasonable accommodation.

 

[RunDisneyGoer]

No, that's a young persons crusade. I am retired, fake service dogs are no longer my problem. I still get upset about it, but I am no longer living it. It's up to the under 65 crowd to fight that fight now. I did fight it in a way when I refused the snake. I was willing to lose my job over somebody attempting to take away my rights. It was a victory, a small one, but one none the less. I just hate to see all those people put in a position of having to make choices between right and wrong all the while knowing that they will not be backed up in their efforts. It easily turns into a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

I am replying to the grammar statement: I am a teacher and whoever does something as silly as that in a non-academic forum is just a more mean person that others (giggle).

 

[RunDisneyGoer]

It also further states this very important part:

(d) ”Service animal” means an animal that is trained to perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The tasks may include, but are not limited to, guiding a person who is visually impaired or blind, alerting a person who is deaf or hard of hearing, pulling a wheelchair, assisting with mobility or balance, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, retrieving objects, or performing other special tasks. A service animal is not a pet.​

I think that's the part so many people get upset over - myself included*. It's a horrible abuse of the law and really insults people with legitimate needs and the amazing work these service animals can provide when someone slaps a $25 "service dog" vest they bought on the internet on their pet thinking they are better than everyone else and that the rules and laws don't apply to them. It's disgusting and people who bring their pet should face severe punishment for taking advantage of the system set up to help truly disabled people like that.


*Not directed at anyone specifically, just saying in general pets are NOT service animals regardless if someone is willing to lie and say they are or not.

Yes you are accurate, I made a post about this... remember that state law doesn't trumpet federal law. So those business' that choose to follow just the state law are taking a real risk. The police can come and have the person removed from their business because they cannot enforce the Federal law, but if that person goes Federal with a compliant...sucks to be them.

I had this experience many times while I was a dancer on a national tour. One incident did make me so mad I went to the Federal level I was kicked out of a Waffle house with my service animal by the police. The Waffle house in LA was surprised to learn about their mistake and what they would have to do to make it right. The head of the police department and the officer apologized to me because they knew they did not want a Federal issue (they did nothing wrong by kicking me out, but the officer was very inappropriate in his questioning especially in regards to my disability). Education is key.

Also, I agree I get very mad when people ask me where I got my dogs vest and talk about getting one so they can bring their animal with them. I do not like people abusing the law since it does make it harder for people who can improve their quality of life from a service animal.

Since the law does not require service animals to be licensed (not all states do anyway) this problem will always exist. I agree with the Federal government not making people get licenses and pay for specific training because it is expensive. I was lucky I got a deal from a private trainer and my animal's training only cost 7,000 dollars. When I have to retire my service animal I probably will not be able to afford the training for a new one. I might be able to do the training myself this time since I was a part of it the first time, however I just don't believe I have the skills to train a service animal properly. Plus I do not know how to train certain tasks. My dog was trained to get my medicine, wake me up, and help with light household chores and I am not even sure I would remember the language perfectly enough to be successful at it.

Sorry this reply is so long, but I am very passionate and highly educated in this subject matter and I don't want anyone who is looking for help with questions about their service animals to get the wrong idea. Mine has been a life saver and I would do anything to help someone have the same experience.

 

[RunDisneyGoer]

Open someone out there that may have a service dog and has been to Disney can answer. My brother in law age 71 and my sister have just recieved their papers signifying their dog as a service dog. My Brother in law has anxiety and depression issues and his dog is a walking pacifer. Cant tell you type of dog it is but is real small. Anyway......we were talking bout their conversation they had with Disney on what they need to show and where the dog an and can not go. They pretty much said " its a state law" that the dog can go anywhere with them..anywhere. Ok so then I asked " What happens when you go on rides how are you going to do that? AND do they allow the dogs on rides too?" We were in Disney this past June and saw many service dogs BUT none in lines for rides, or on rides, or in attractions...say haunted Mansion.
So has anyone had dogs with them and actually taken them on rides??

I have a service dog and I have taken him on rides. It is about knowing your dog and their limitations. This would apply not just to the rides, but to their stamina to be at a park all day and then the weather conditions are also important. Specifically, the rides you mentioned, my dog does wonderfully on Small World (loves it)...not a fan of the indian jones ride (so I do not take him, plus I realize it is a little more jerky than I realized). He loves privates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion. Sometimes the only way to figure it out is a test run. I always use the thought does the benefits out way the risks. Will my heath suffer more or will my service animal's health suffer more. They are an expensive investment and a friend for life and you want to have them as long as possible, so treat them with the care you think they need. I hope this is helpful.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

It sounds like you need a system like we have in the UK.

Disability legislation specifies the term 'Recognised Assistance Dog' for the provision of additional allowances. Currently there are 7 organisations who are members.

A “Recognised Assistance Dog” is one which has been specifically trained to assist a disabled person and which has been qualified by one of the charitable organisations registered as members of Assistance Dogs UK. Assistance dogs trained by members of Assistance Dogs UK will have formal identification and have been endorsed by the Department of Health, on the basis that the dog’s high standards of training, behaviour, health and welfare are such that it should be permitted to accompany its client, owner, or partner, at all times and in all places, within the United Kingdom.​

This completely eliminates the problem you have with 'fake' service animals. Either they are registered and have the certification to prove it or they do not have to be exempted.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

Well? Based on what WDW is likely to do... just go to EBAY & slap a vest on anything you like .

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/service-dog-vest

Unfortunately looking at that link, that how it seems.
It seems that reading the text printed on the cards, the act was put in place with good intentions and meant to cover guide dogs, hearing dogs and some basis assistance helper dogs.

I doubt they prompted the fake "emotional helper" category that sprung up to enable people to take their pets anywhere.

 

[jxvlmom]

I have been training service dogs (not to be confused with guide dogs) for about 5 yrs. I take my "in training" dogs to Disney all the time. I've been denied access to the park and my ticket held at the gate, by cm asking for validation and yelling at me about papers and tags. I do suffer from anxiety, and this issue caused a great deal. However, the cm was in the wrong, I asked to speak with guest service. The cm came back looked at my dog, gave my ticket back waved me through and disappeared. I did go see guest service, they did apologize for the incident. I found this an excellent time to work my dog in "redirecting my anxiety". This is a trained behavior. However, in addressing the topic of emotional support dog, there are those trained and those who are just pets. I was a concert at EPCOT and while talking with my husband prior to show time about where I will be, I was asked by a person (with a yorkie sitting on the bench) if I could move elsewhere because my service dog was upsetting there dog. Ok, to be honest, I just rolled my eyes and continued talking to my husband. Where was my do during all this? Sitting beside me being petted by my son. The yorkie is not a "trained". I have made complaints on this dog in the past, once for aggressively lunging off their scooter (unleashed) at my service dog, in the presents of children. My dog just looked at the dog with no response. A trained service dog should not show any form of aggression, bark or be disruptive. Public can ask questions to dog owner concerning training. Just keep in mind, certification is not required nor is a vest. Business can ask two, "is that a service dog" and "what job is it trained to do for you ". And no they are not required to prove the job.

 

[G00fyDad]

I have been training service dogs (not to be confused with guide dogs) for about 5 yrs. I take my "in training" dogs to Disney all the time. I've been denied access to the park and my ticket held at the gate, by cm asking for validation and yelling at me about papers and tags. I do suffer from anxiety, and this issue caused a great deal. However, the cm was in the wrong, I asked to speak with guest service. The cm came back looked at my dog, gave my ticket back waved me through and disappeared. I did go see guest service, they did apologize for the incident. I found this an excellent time to work my dog in "redirecting my anxiety". This is a trained behavior. However, in addressing the topic of emotional support dog, there are those trained and those who are just pets. I was a concert at EPCOT and while talking with my husband prior to show time about where I will be, I was asked by a person (with a yorkie sitting on the bench) if I could move elsewhere because my service dog was upsetting there dog. Ok, to be honest, I just rolled my eyes and continued talking to my husband. Where was my do during all this? Sitting beside me being petted by my son. The yorkie is not a "trained". I have made complaints on this dog in the past, once for aggressively lunging off their scooter (unleashed) at my service dog, in the presents of children. My dog just looked at the dog with no response. A trained service dog should not show any form of aggression, bark or be disruptive. Public can ask questions to dog owner concerning training. Just keep in mind, certification is not required nor is a vest. Business can ask two, "is that a service dog" and "what job is it trained to do for you ". And no they are not required to prove the job.

Thanks for dragging up such a touchy subject again. While you're at it why don't we start talking about mug refills, scooters, and pool hopping?

 

[jxvlmom]

Having a service dog has changed my life for the better. Not everyone can take a little pill to make them all better. A service dog is not right for every one either. I do run into discrimination at hotels and restaurants, as well as general public. But, having my dog with me, even at theme parks, makes my life...worth living. I can not expect to interfere with my family's happiness, and having my dog gives me the independence I deserve, without relying on anyone for help. So, the next time you see a person with a service dog, look at the big picture, that dog is give a person with limited abilities a life of independence. I phooey on those out there who mess that up because you think it would be cool to take your dog to the theme park, a restaurant or the store.