Pinioned birds at Animal Kingdom—UPDATED

21stamps

Well-Known Member
@LittleBuford has a sincerely held belief, in spite of scholarly research, that one would think could afford him understanding anthropogenic climate change skepticism.

This is true.

I also think that if all the ‘bending-over-backwards to prove how good they are’ folks would actually see what would happen if we closed all zoos and aquariums, they might see how wrong they are, and they might even realize that the effort to prove “I’m so caring” is often misplaced.


p.s. it’s taking a huge effort on my part to not go off on a SeaWorld tangent right now. I’ll remain on topic.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
I can't completely agree that one can substitute instinctual behavior with human emotion. Can't go along with that, but, they do tend to go toward what they like, which would be their instinct and really not be able to carry that beyond when it is actually happening. They do get bored in the sense that their instinct is to explore and label their territory, but that isn't human emotion either, just animals acting out based on the things they are hard wired to do. They are warm and loyal companions and they do attach to things they recognize as safe and comfortable. One of the other things about instinct is the ability to recognize danger and react to it. The minute that they become aware of danger, that warm, cuddly ball of hair has instinct kick in and will react very defensively.

Honestly I don't care to debate this. I will say all experts say they have emotions. Cats even smile. To what level though, not really easy (or something I'm willing) to debate. I have a much higher opinion on cats and their emotion than you do. It's more than instinct based on my actions, but you don't have to agree :)
 

King Capybara 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
This works both ways too. No-one has provided any evidence that pinioning isn’t cruel. On the contrary, people have reacted badly to the very suggestion that Disney engages in this practice.
You are the one saying this is wrong. So .... i would assume you would be the one to prove it is .
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
As the OP of this thread, you stated that you were against a practice. I noted in my last post in reply that there were legal reasons why this occurs. Your outrage is misplaced and you've demonstrated that you are willing to compromise your objections so you won't miss an attraction.

If you want to see buzzards in flight, just go to the Contemporary resort on a sunny day. There are plenty of them catching updrafts off the face of the building.

Two posts ago, you accused me of jumping to conclusions in assuming that the bird I saw was pinioned. Now all of a sudden you’re claiming that pinioning is a legal requirement, even though it isn’t. There are other ways to stop birds in captivity from flying where they shouldn’t.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
This works both ways too. No-one has provided any evidence that pinioning isn’t cruel. On the contrary, people have reacted badly to the very suggestion that Disney engages in this practice.

I actually stated a reason why some pinion vs clip. It can be anxiety inducing to clip, and if a bird is unable to be in the wild, this is a practice done to keep the birds safe while not stressing them with clipping. Not sure if you missed that or not. I did say I am not aware of what Disney does regularly as practice though, so hard to go beyond more than that since I haven't found facts one way or another. I trust most animal keepers though, but I have a fantastic zoo in my back yard that works to save animals and research and such. Not just put them on display. So I am biased positively towards good zoos.
 

King Capybara 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
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LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You are the one saying this is wrong. So .... i would assume you would be the one to prove it is .

It involves removing part of the wing, a procedure equivalent to declawing a cat. When the alternative of feather-trimming exists, I can’t see the need for such extreme surgical intervention. Since some zoos have moved away from the practice, I’m clearly not the first or only person to consider it ethically questionable.
 

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
My partner and I aren’t fans of zoos (we feel sorry for the animals) but wanted to see Pandora, so we rope-dropped Animal Kingdom yesterday with the intention of bypassing all the live “exhibits” and doing the other attractions and shows. We were having a wonderful time (Flight of Passage was truly amazing), and then we made the mistake of taking a shortcut across Discovery Island, where we happened to catch sight of a vulture just sitting on the grass. We were confused as to why it wouldn’t fly away, and so we asked a cast member. She told us its wings were clipped to prevent flight, adding that it wouldn’t be able to survive if allowed to fly off. As I later found out through the wonders of Google, “clipped” is the euphemistic way of describing what they do to these birds, which is to remove parts of the wings entirely to make them permanently flightless (a procedure called pinioning). I suppose I can understand the justification in the case of endangered species that need to be kept and bred in captivity (which these vultures happened to be), but they do it also for birds that are far more numerous and really don’t need to be kept in zoos. All those flamingoes you see happily wading around? They can’t fly either.

While I realise that this is a zoo problem rather than an Animal Kingdom problem, I really wish Disney would stick to creatures of the animatronic variety rather than participate in these barbaric practices. I can’t see the magic in gawking at a hobbled bird.
I can see where you are coming from here, in so far as birds are meant to fly, and taking that ability from them irreversibly seems cruel.
IMO it's unethical, given the availability of reversible practices and netting of modern aviaries.

As far as flamingos - here is an interesting NY Times article on one that escaped from a zoo and is surviving in the wild.
It might help? answer your question about pinioning:
"Scott Newland, the curator of birds at the zoo, said if the birds had arrived as newborns, they would have been kept flightless by essentially amputating a part of the wing in which they had not yet developed sensation, before the bone was formed. But the birds came to the zoo as adults, probably around 3 years old, and the institution considered the practice unethical for birds of their age.

Instead, adult birds are kept grounded by feather clipping, which Mr. Newland called “no different than you or I getting a haircut.”

I get the impression from other recent articles that the common practice is on its way out; it's gotten more attention in the UK and Europe.
Eg: "Roger Sweeney, General Curator of North Carolina Zoo told us “While pinioning is still widely practiced in the USA by the private waterfowl collections, zoos are moving towards discouraging the practice…The AZA encourages zoos towards using reversible methods of flight restriction and advise their members should develop a written policy on if, when, and how flight restriction is employed.”
It appears to be the AZA recommendation since 2013.
 

King Capybara 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
It involves removing part of the wing, a procedure equivalent to declawing a cat. When the alternative of feather-trimming exists, I can’t see the need for such extreme surgical intervention. Since some zoos have moved away from the practice, I’m clearly not the first or only person to consider it ethically questionable.
A different poster suggests the clipping is as bad. So who do i believe?
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I actually stated a reason why some pinion vs clip. It can be anxiety inducing to clip, and if a bird is unable to be in the wild, this is a practice done to keep the birds safe while not stressing them with clipping. Not sure if you missed that or not. I did say I am not aware of what Disney does regularly as practice though, so hard to go beyond more than that since I haven't found facts one way or another. I trust most animal keepers though, but I have a fantastic zoo in my back yard that works to save animals and research and such. Not just put them on display. So I am biased positively towards good zoos.

I provided a link that shows that most of the birds at Animal Kingdom Lodge are pinioned.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
You’re comparing an issue about which there is much contentious debate to one where over 90% of scientists are in agreement. It’s apples and oranges.

Are 90% of scientists in agreement with your OP , basically saying that zoos are inhumane?

I’d love to read that article.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I can see where you are coming from here, in so far as birds are meant to fly, and taking that ability from them irreversibly seems cruel.
IMO it's unethical, given the availability of reversible practices and netting of modern aviaries.

As far as flamingos - here is an interesting NY Times article on one that escaped from a zoo and is surviving in the wild.
It might help? answer your question about pinioning:
"Scott Newland, the curator of birds at the zoo, said if the birds had arrived as newborns, they would have been kept flightless by essentially amputating a part of the wing in which they had not yet developed sensation, before the bone was formed. But the birds came to the zoo as adults, probably around 3 years old, and the institution considered the practice unethical for birds of their age.

Instead, adult birds are kept grounded by feather clipping, which Mr. Newland called “no different than you or I getting a haircut.”

I get the impression from other recent articles that the common practice is on its way out; it's gotten more attention in the UK and Europe.
Eg: "Roger Sweeney, General Curator of North Carolina Zoo told us “While pinioning is still widely practiced in the USA by the private waterfowl collections, zoos are moving towards discouraging the practice…The AZA encourages zoos towards using reversible methods of flight restriction and advise their members should develop a written policy on if, when, and how flight restriction is employed.”
It appears to be the AZA recommendation since 2013.

Thanks for this information. The US/Europe distinction reminds me somewhat of the declawing debate in relation to domestic cats. The practice is all but unheard of back in the UK but (as I understand it) quite common here in the States.
 

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