Pfizer Vaccine News

Trackmaster

Well-Known Member
I couldn't quite get the quote for your first post, but I agree with Biden on that. We've lost enough standing in the world through Trump and his minions that we need to do everything that we can help get our standing with the world back and let people know that we're not nationalistic, selfish, isolationists.
 

Trackmaster

Well-Known Member
The priority I have seen is healthcare workers, first responders and others in high risk essential jobs in the first wave. Then people in nursing homes or very vulnerable (80+). After that it goes to the general public with some level of priority: high risk people with multiple pre-existing conditions, people 70+ then 60+ then the rest. We also don’t know when the trials on children will be complete. They won’t roll the vaccine out to kids under 18 until it’s been tested. I think Pfizer and Moderna are both starting to include kids but still not under 12. They won’t be in the first wave of vaccinations. They need to expand to that and also consider pregnant women and other people with medical conditions.

I think that the the first group is on point. But I just can't get behind giving it to groups that are already quarantining. That's just way too bleeding heart, even for me. The problem with SARS-CoV-2 is the exponential growth. High risk people can be quarantined a little longer. We need to stop the superspreading and get it to the people who are spreading it. Any group of people that are voluntarily quarantining already are just a lower priority of a scarce resource. Its not like the nursing people all sneak out at night and have unmasked super spreading keg ragers with their friends in other nursing homes.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I couldn't quite get the quote for your first post, but I agree with Biden on that. We've lost enough standing in the world through Trump and his minions that we need to do everything that we can help get our standing with the world back and let people know that we're not nationalistic, selfish, isolationists.
Agreed. This is a worldwide pandemic and if we were to hoard doses of vaccine then the world doesn’t get out of this. We still have a lot riding on the rest of the world for our economy, not to mention the humanitarian aspect.

I think that the the first group is on point. But I just can't get behind giving it to groups that are already quarantining. That's just way too bleeding heart, even for me. The problem with SARS-CoV-2 is the exponential growth. High risk people can be quarantined a little longer. We need to stop the superspreading and get it to the people who are spreading it. Any group of people that are voluntarily quarantining already are just a lower priority of a scarce resource. Its not like the nursing people all sneak out at night and have unmasked super spreading keg ragers with their friends in other nursing homes.
I think it comes down to risk of serious negative outcome. They want to protect people more likely to end up in a hospital or dead. I did see one plan that went from senior citizen 55+ to 18-35 and then 35-55 going last for the reason you laid out, that younger people are more likely to spread the virus and also more likely to work in customer facing jobs.
 

Trackmaster

Well-Known Member
Agreed. This is a worldwide pandemic and if we were to hoard doses of vaccine then the world doesn’t get out of this. We still have a lot riding on the rest of the world for our economy, not to mention the humanitarian aspect.


I think it comes down to risk of serious negative outcome. They want to protect people more likely to end up in a hospital or dead. I did see one plan that went from senior citizen 55+ to 18-35 and then 35-55 going last for the reason you laid out, that younger people are more likely to spread the virus and also more likely to work in customer facing jobs.

But that's just people's bleeding hearts getting out of control. I get it, our emotions make us humans. But the problem with SARS-CoV-2 is out contagious it is. Most people aren't quarantining and we can't make them. The people who are quarantining who the ones who know that they'll get rocked by it... or the super duper germaphobes. People aren't quarantining, they won't wear masks, they won't distance, etc. The best play is to hope that we can slip a needle in their arm when they aren't looking and let them go to maskless superspreader events to their hearts content. I know its gotta be bad for the old people, but they just aren't spreading it fast enough to warrant scarce vaccines.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
Most are done with far fewer than 40,000.
Most are done over a longer period of time. Vaccine reactions tend to happen relatively quickly after taking the vaccine, but in other cases, it takes more time to discover negative reactions and side effects.

How long did it take to discover opioids were a problem?

In researching my other post, I also read a tiny bit about Pfizer's big Celebrex lawsuit. It took time to discover Celebrex was causing serious side effects

The other, I think important tidbit to know here, which likely you personally know, but perhaps others do not, is that the Pfizer vaccine is not a conventional vaccine. It is a new, different type of vaccine formulation. The background research has been developed over some years, but this will be the first mRNA vaccine to progress to final approval. (mRNA= messenger RNA) This new type of vaccine works by triggering a different type of body reaction than traditional vaccine do. Again- there are many technical sources to read more about the details.
 

Trackmaster

Well-Known Member
And I might not be so worried about getting it to the third world nations, but we need to make sure that we're taking care of some of those guys in Europe and Asia. We've made a lot of mistakes, but we lucky and we need to milk this for all we can. If the goody two shoes in Western Europe make us throw some to the 3rd world guys, we'll do what we need to do I guess. America being the laughingstock and the villain is bad for business.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
The priority I have seen is healthcare workers, first responders and others in high risk essential jobs in the first wave. Then people in nursing homes or very vulnerable (80+). After that it goes to the general public with some level of priority: high risk people with multiple pre-existing conditions, people 70+ then 60+ then the rest. We also don’t know when the trials on children will be complete. They won’t roll the vaccine out to kids under 18 until it’s been tested. I think Pfizer and Moderna are both starting to include kids but still not under 12. They won’t be in the first wave of vaccinations. They need to expand to that and also consider pregnant women and other people with medical conditions.
Confirming BioNTech Pfizer is doing 12-17 year olds currently at this time. I have a 12yo and while I absolutely would support them if they did it, they opted out. Those of us in the trial received notification to sign up directly if we knew someone. Given how many blood draws and how many hours some of the appointments are I didn't scold my own for declining. They have harder times working around schooling schedules too, but they started maybe a month ago or so.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
Most are done over a longer period of time. Vaccine reactions tend to happen relatively quickly after taking the vaccine, but in other cases, it takes more time to discover negative reactions and side effects.

How long did it take to discover opioids were a problem?

In researching my other post, I also read a tiny bit about Pfizer's big Celebrex lawsuit. It took time to discover Celebrex was causing serious side effects

The other, I think important tidbit to know here, which likely you personally know, but perhaps others do not, is that the Pfizer vaccine is not a conventional vaccine. It is a new, different type of vaccine formulation. The background research has been developed over some years, but this will be the first mRNA vaccine to progress to final approval. (mRNA= messenger RNA) This new type of vaccine works by triggering a different type of body reaction than traditional vaccine do. Again- there are many technical sources to read more about the details.
Can I ask why you are trying to scare people out of taking the vaccine?
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Most are done over a longer period of time. Vaccine reactions tend to happen relatively quickly after taking the vaccine, but in other cases, it takes more time to discover negative reactions and side effects.

How long did it take to discover opioids were a problem?

In researching my other post, I also read a tiny bit about Pfizer's big Celebrex lawsuit. It took time to discover Celebrex was causing serious side effects

The other, I think important tidbit to know here, which likely you personally know, but perhaps others do not, is that the Pfizer vaccine is not a conventional vaccine. It is a new, different type of vaccine formulation. The background research has been developed over some years, but this will be the first mRNA vaccine to progress to final approval. (mRNA= messenger RNA) This new type of vaccine works by triggering a different type of body reaction than traditional vaccine do. Again- there are many technical sources to read more about the details.
Opioids have been know to cause addiction since at least the 1800s, when they started to be used widely treating battle injuries. The main reason why we seem to have temporarily "forgotten" this in the early 2000s was because the Joint Commission, with the support of certain drug companies and pain advocate associations, started using pain control and patient satisfaction as a metric for hospital certification.

The slight increase in cardiac events demonstrated with celebrex are a known class effect of all NSAIDs (including OTC meds like ibuprofen and naproxen), not just celebrex. Pfizer (and Merk with viox) got bad press for their COX2 inhibitors because they were hoping to show benefits in all cause mortality, when in fact, the COX2 inhibitors showed the same small, but real increase in cardiac events similar to other NSAIDs. Merk panicked and pulled viox, whereas Pfizer stood by their data and urged appropriate caution when prescribing. That's probably why celebrex remains on the market, but of course, that didn't stop the lawyers.

And once again, studying the long-term effects of vaccines is completely different than for drugs. Vaccinations are usually one-time events that beyond the immune cells they recruit, leave no lasting residue soon after the injection. There simply isn't a viable biological mechanism for a vaccine to cause a side effects years later, much less an experimental design that could sift through the noise and tie a one-or-two time event to a years-later bad outcome. Meds that people take continuously over long periods of time are a different story, however.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
I have a good friend who had a seizure after getting the DTAP booster. His wife was pregnant and they suggested he get the booster. He got the shot and passed out shortly after in the doctor‘s office. When he woke up he was in an ambulance and they told him he had a seizure. After a series of tests and a visit to the head of neurology at one of the top local hospitals they couldn’t find anything else wrong and concluded it was a rare side effect of the vaccination. So he is one of the 6 in 100,000 I guess. The point of all this is that he’s fine now. This was about 10 years ago and never had another seizure or any lasting issues. It was frightening at the time but not life altering. Outside of GBS or anaphylactic shock from an allergic reaction (both exceedingly rare) he had one of the worst reactions possible and he’s perfectly fine. I don’t tell this story to try to convince you to get a vaccine, you can make up your own mind, but to point out to others that while this may look like a long list of possible bad outcomes most of them are a mild inconvenience when compared to Covid. Almost 1,500 people died yesterday alone. The vaccine isn’t without risk, but neither is potentially getting Covid.
Your post above is a reasonable post. I've tried to do the same. As I said, I think 3 times now, I think this is a good year to be proactive in regards to updating standard vaccines. If nothing else, it seems like a courtesy to hospital workers to avoid a preventable infection.

Previously some posters in this thread seemed to be unaware of the possibility of reactions like seizures. Which makes me wonder how long it had been since they updated their own vaccines. Whenever I've had one, the dr's office always instructs me to wait in the office for 15minutes or so before leaving, especially before driving a car. So I've just always been aware reactions are enough of a possibility that the doctors take precautions in case they happen.

A seizure while driving car is dangerous. In many states, having a seizure = you aren't supposed to drive for several months. Each state has slightly different laws, and determining factors. (like requiring the person to submit medical letters every year)

According to the epilepsy.com database drivers need to be seizure-free for:
FL - 6 months (w/physician discretion) - because this is a Disney forum :)
CA - 3 or 6 months (depending on type of seizure, and prior history of seizures)
KY- 3 months
DC = 1 year
OK - 6 months
NM - 6 months
NH- 1 year (w/physician discretion)
 
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Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Your post above is a reasonable post. I've tried to do the same. As I said, I think 3 times now, I think this is a good year to be proactive in regards to updating standard vaccines. If nothing else, it seems like a courtesy to hospital workers to avoid a preventable infection.

Previously some posters in this thread seemed to be unaware of the possibility of reactions like seizures. Which makes me wonder how long it had been since they updated their own vaccines. Whenever I've had one, the dr's office always instructs me to wait in the office for 15minutes or so before leaving, especially before driving a car. So I've just always been aware reactions are enough of a possibility that the doctors take precautions in case they happen.

A seizure while driving car is dangerous. In many states, having a seizure = you aren't supposed to drive for several months. Each state has slightly different laws, and determining factors. (like requiring the person to submit medical letters every year)

According to the epilepsy.com database drivers need to be seizure-free for:
FL - 6 months (w/physician discretion) - because this is a Disney forum :)
CA - 3 or 6 months (depending on type of seizure, and prior history of seizures)
KY- 3 months
DC = 1 year
OK - 6 months
NM - 6 months
NH- 1 year (w/physician discretion)
Seizures are an extremely rare vaccine reaction, and on review, most of the supposedly documented "seizures" were more likely convulsive syncope. The same fainting reaction that occurs when some people have blood drawn.

If your physician requires you to wait after receiving a vaccination (most places where I have worked do not require this), it is to monitor for signs of an anaphylactic reaction, not for a seizure. These are also rare, although there are a few reported cases every year. However, they can be very easily treated right then and there in the office. Medical practices that administers injections of any kind are required to maintain a supply of epinepherine.

Also, the driving restriction is on people with a history of epilepsy specifically, which is defined as a disorder of recurrent seizures. One-off, avoidable seizures from defined causes like fevers, drug reactions or heat stroke are not considered epilepsy. These people generally don't have their driving permits restricted if the seizure can reasonably be attributed to a specific cause.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
I mean, that sounds pretty sensational and odd on Biden's part. However, I could see doing something like that as a way to try to improve our standing with the world.

Giving it to the elderly ahead of retail workers is equally as stupid, as the elderly have already been quarantining, and giving them scarce vaccine won't do anything to stop the spread. When the vaccine is scarce, the priority should be to stop the spread and create held immunity to protect us (real herd immunity, not the idiotic murderous Swedish herd immunity).
What he said was that we shouldn't hoard it just for ourselves and that we should make an effort to be sure that poorer countries are on our list to assist, not even slightly implying that they would be first, but that it looked like there will be more than enough to take care of ourselves. There is a logical sequence for distribution, like to the elderly, but the rest are included.

How do we decide that the elderly, the very people that are the most likely to die from the virus, shouldn't be close to the front of the line. It is just a continuation of the belief that the elderly are expendable whereas the young and healthy are worthy of continuing to live. It is just one more Nazi attitude that this country seems to have adopted. Those elderly that you deem worthless may just be your mother or father. As a member of the "elderly" I am able to accept that my life line is getting very short now, however, I would prefer not to stay isolated but to live until I die from old age and not a virus that I might have been able to receive protection from but was consider a low priority.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Most are done over a longer period of time. Vaccine reactions tend to happen relatively quickly after taking the vaccine, but in other cases, it takes more time to discover negative reactions and side effects.

How long did it take to discover opioids were a problem?

In researching my other post, I also read a tiny bit about Pfizer's big Celebrex lawsuit. It took time to discover Celebrex was causing serious side effects

The other, I think important tidbit to know here, which likely you personally know, but perhaps others do not, is that the Pfizer vaccine is not a conventional vaccine. It is a new, different type of vaccine formulation. The background research has been developed over some years, but this will be the first mRNA vaccine to progress to final approval. (mRNA= messenger RNA) This new type of vaccine works by triggering a different type of body reaction than traditional vaccine do. Again- there are many technical sources to read more about the details.
Just remember that vaccines and drugs are different. A vaccine is a one time shot (or one with boosters), most drugs are taken multiple times. Most vaccine adverse reactions happen very shortly after the vaccine is administered. If you think about how a vaccine works, it encourages your body to have an immune response, it makes sense that the reaction would happen soon after injection. With a lot of medications the problems are the results of repeated use. That‘s why you see a lot more examples of drugs having an adverse reaction that’s delayed. I’m not saying a vaccine can’t have a delayed reaction just that the most serious ones are rarely delayed much beyond the time of the trial.
Seizures are an extremely rare vaccine reaction, and on review, most of the supposedly documented "seizures" were more likely convulsive syncope. The same fainting reaction that occurs when some people have blood drawn.
To follow up on my story, the doctors at the hospital insisted that my friend’s seizure was not due to the vaccine because it’s so rare for that to happen and they required multiple follow up tests. He had a contact who got him in with the head of neurology at one of the premier hospitals in the area to ensure nothing else was wrong. They finally agreed to report the reaction and write it up officially as a vaccine reaction. It was actually a peace of mind thing for him to know it was a reaction to a vaccine over just a random seizure from unknown causes.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
But that's just people's bleeding hearts getting out of control. I get it, our emotions make us humans. But the problem with SARS-CoV-2 is out contagious it is. Most people aren't quarantining and we can't make them. The people who are quarantining who the ones who know that they'll get rocked by it... or the super duper germaphobes. People aren't quarantining, they won't wear masks, they won't distance, etc. The best play is to hope that we can slip a needle in their arm when they aren't looking and let them go to maskless superspreader events to their hearts content. I know its gotta be bad for the old people, but they just aren't spreading it fast enough to warrant scarce vaccines.
It’s going to be a tough sell to say let elderly and high risk people wait while younger people who aren’t following the rules get vaccinated so they can continue doing whatever they want. That’s just not going to happen. That has nothing to do with a bleeding heart or emotions. You give the vaccine first to the people on the front lines fighting the virus and keeping the rest of us safe. Then the people with the highest risk of serious complications or death and then everyone else.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
The problem with the flu vaccine isn't mutations in the virus, its because the seasonal genetic reshuffling of antigens is difficult to predict. The genomic structure of the antigens show little to no mutations year to year.

And the reason why the HIV vaccine has proven so hard to develope isn't because of mutations either. It is unique in that B cell stimulation has little effect, and it successfully hijacks the T cells that are needed to direct the immune response. The rapid mutation of HIV has more relevance to the selection of anti-viral treatment.

I'm sorry, but according to numerous sources, Anitgenic drift is an accumulation of variation caused by an accumulation of mutations.

Direct quote from the CDC:

Antigenic Drift​

One way influenza viruses change is called “antigenic drift.” These are small changes (or mutations) in the genes of influenza viruses that can lead to changes in the surface proteins of the virus: HA (hemagglutinin) and NA (neuraminidase).
When antigenic drift occurs, the body’s immune system may not recognize and prevent sickness caused by the newer influenza viruses. As a result, a person becomes susceptible to flu infection again, as antigenic drift has changed the virus enough that a person’s existing antibodies won’t recognize and neutralize the newer influenza viruses.

Antigenic drift is the main reason why people can get the flu more than one time, and it’s also a primary reason why the flu vaccine composition must be reviewed and updated each year (as needed) to keep up with evolving influenza viruses.


From Bhekisisa Center for Health Journalism:

SARS coronaviruses replicate and mutate relatively slowly when compared to other viruses such HIV, which replicates at a high rate. Because HIV can adapt so quickly, there could be many strains of the virus, and it could potentially become drug-resistant. “[coronaviruses replicate at] a fraction of what you see with HIV,” Preiser explains.


From NPR:

HIV is a complex virus that targets and weakens the human immune system, which is normally responsible for fighting off diseases and infections. It also mutates rapidly, making mistakes as it replicates in the body.

"[This results] in viruses that are not all identical to each other," says Feinberg. "That means in every HIV infected person, there's tremendous genetic diversity." Antibodies created by the immune system to fight off the virus ultimately can't keep up with the mutations and fail to fight off HIV.

A vaccine for HIV faces the same challenge: it must trigger the creation of antibodies that can fight off all the different variations and subtypes of HIV. It also must have a long-lasting effect.

From NIH, though reading the full paragraph gives a fuller explanation (doi: 10.1007/s00018-016-2299-6) :

A similar scenario can be depicted for antiviral immunity. Viruses showing high mutation rates tend to evade immunity more efficiently. There are numerous examples of cytotoxic T lymphocyte (CTL) and antibody evasion in HIV-1, HCV, and hepatitis B virus (HBV), three fast-mutating viruses causing chronic infections. In HBV, the most common cause of hepatitis worldwide with nearly 350 million people chronically infected, a series of point mutations have been associated with immune escape and vaccination failure [7]. In acute viruses, immune escape takes place at the host population level instead of at the intra-host level. In this case, the benefit of escape resides in the ability of the virus to re-infect hosts that have developed protective immunity or infect hosts with that recognize the same antigens. The best-known example is influenza virus, which constantly undergoes antigenic changes and therefore requires yearly vaccine updates. Current efforts focus on developing influenza vaccines that target evolutionarily more conserved, yet sufficiently immunogenic protein domains [8]. Viral genetic diversity, which is ultimately determined by mutation rates, has therefore a profound effect on the design of antiviral strategies.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
Can I ask why you are trying to scare people out of taking the vaccine?
No, I'm not.

Post 1 asked:
Just wondering, has this potentially very positive vaccine news caused anyone else to start daydreaming about a return to a “normal” WDW?!
To which I replied:

"So, um, while this is good news, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic for the time being. To answer OP's question, yes, this good news has me cautiously dreaming of a return to normal."

Pfizer has characterized their results as preliminary. Mostly, I've just tied to explain why I agree that these first results are still preliminary. There's still much to learn. If that makes me a bad guy, okay.


I dunno, didn't the whole opioid epidemic make you at all concerned or cautious? It feels like we sometimes have a very short collective memory.

Squirrel!
 

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