OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[Matt_Black]

The British and Spanish empires engaged in a lot of nasty stuff (the former absolutely permitted the slave trade while its flag flew over the U.S.).

The original 13-star Betsy Ross flag represents a country founded with the express purpose of promoting slavery.

I can't decide which is worse about this: the rush to judgment, "sheeple" decision, or the fact that Generation Snowflake children who were "taught to the test" are so woefully ignorant of the nuances of history.

You look in any country's closet, you're bound to find a few skeletons. The difference is that most countries in general eventually acknowledge that what they did was wrong. It may take a generation or two, but they get around to it. For a long time, the proponents of the Confederacy and the flag have spun propaganda, if not outright deception, about what the Stars & Bars stands for and many are still buying into that, touting phrases like "states' rights" or "southern pride".

 

[JohnByers]

I can't decide which is worse about this: the rush to judgment, "sheeple" decision, or the fact that Generation Snowflake children who were "taught to the test" are so woefully ignorant of the nuances of history.

As a teacher of 17 years you can't imagine the amount of disgust I have in how the education system has moved to this style of teaching and rating of teacher effectiveness.

 

[Matt_Black]

Have you been to SoCal lately? You'll see a LOT of Mexican flags flying...

And that's fair. I know a few Irish families in my locale that proudly display their mother country's flag right next to Old Glory. What private citizens do is different than what governments or corporations do.

 

[Hakunamatata]

when you look at a barber pole, you don't reflect on the hundreds of years of slavery and injustice that the pole forced you into. what a terrible analogy

But my feelings are just important aren't they? Offense is offense is it not? How does one judge the level off offensiveness in our culture?

 

[Hakunamatata]

Oh good lord.... Are liberals going to remove everything that we are not proud off. So we wont talk about civil rights, civil war, ect ect.... Just unicorns and rainbows.

I will say that plenty of conservatives are strolling along with the rest of the cultural flock.

 

[71jason]

You look in any country's closet, you're bound to find a few skeletons. The difference is that most countries in general eventually acknowledge that what they did was wrong. It may take a generation or two, but they get around to it. For a long time, the proponents of the Confederacy and the flag have spun propaganda, if not outright deception, about what the Stars & Bars stands for and many are still buying into that, touting phrases like "states' rights" or "southern pride".

It doesn't matter what it stood for. It's one of the flags that flew over the the territory that is now the USA. Some of the regimes represented did bad things. That doesn't mean we should whitewash them away from the history books.

We're talking a very specific location and context here. Were this Frontierland or mini-flags in the American Adventure gift shop--let alone a state capitol building--I would agree with the decision. But this is the Hall of Flags. Essentially a historical museum.

 

[bhg469]

Are those turkey legs on those banners?

I see cheetos

 

[englanddg]

But here's the thing for those making the "Context matters" argument- it was hanging in the Hall with other flags utterly devoid of context. Someone completely unversed in American History is going to see that and not realize that it was from when half the country rebelled over the right to own other people as property.

No. It is that you missed the context.

The Hall of Flags isn't about presenting the history of the US Flag. It is about representing the flags which have represented the US territories throughout the ages. It is a historical display.

In the case of the CSA flag, this is the case (just like the Mexican Flag).

It was placed there originally in context, and with purpose and reason (none of which involved celebrating racism or slavery, as the attraction that follows makes perfectly clear).

It is only a general misunderstanding (or even ignorance?) that drives someone to conclude that.

As I nioted before, the motivations and philosophies that led to the civil war were extremely nuanced. The general impression that it was about slavery is correct, but incredibly shallow.

 

[DisneyJunkie]

The problem today is that people are getting offended by EVERYTHING. And while that can be fine, as we all may have things that offend us personally, now more and more often they feel (for some reason) that everyone has to know that they're offended and simply use it to draw attention to themselves. In a lot of cases - not all - it's likely the display of their being offended isn't nearly as great as how much they actually feel.

 

[englanddg]

You look in any country's closet, you're bound to find a few skeletons. The difference is that most countries in general eventually acknowledge that what they did was wrong. It may take a generation or two, but they get around to it. For a long time, the proponents of the Confederacy and the flag have spun propaganda, if not outright deception, about what the Stars & Bars stands for and many are still buying into that, touting phrases like "states' rights" or "southern pride".

The battle flag is not the stars and bars. I posted the stars and bars on page one...and it looks an awful lot like the stars and stripes.

 

[MarkTwain]

Personally, I don't see the difference between displaying the flag in the Hall of Flags, and showing it onscreen during the film presentation. Both are presented completely within context of the larger scope of American history.

It's certainly true that Disney parks are largely designed for entertainment, but American Adventure (justifiably) has always included some more somber points for education and reflection.

The show includes, among other somber moments, footage of the JFK assassination, the rubble from 9/11, and the bombing of Pearl Harbor. All are meant to show the dramatic events which have transformed this country (good and bad), and the Confederacy was easily a part of that.

 

[networkpro]

As was stated earlier,

It just strikes me that hanging it with flags of the legitimate United States is kind of continuing the work started by Southern propagandists. The Confederacy was founded by traitors who sought to perpetuate slavery. Several states were part of Mexico before they part of the United States- should we fly the Mexican flag in the right alongside Old Glory?

Rather a simplistic view of history omitting lots of facts and interjecting a political bias. One in particular was a sovereign country (Texas), so why isn't it flown equally as well as the flags of the indigenous populations ?

Under the Articles of Confederation adopted in 1781, and the United States Constitution, ratified in 1789 . This union was widely understood by both the states and the federal government to be voluntary, and the Constitution was interpreted to reinforce this perspective. At the same time, the founding fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, recognized the states' right to secede. This I point out as your pejorative claim of "traitors" is baseless as the states were acting under the agreements as interpreted by the founders.

The current politically correctness (PC) fervor that's the popular rage attempts to silence everyone. There's not as a right to not be offended.

 

[bhg469]

No. It is that you missed the context.

The Hall of Flags isn't about presenting the history of the US Flag. It is about representing the flags which have represented the US territories throughout the ages. It is a historical display.

In the case of the CSA flag, this is the case (just like he Mexican Flag).

It was placed there originally in context, and with purpose and reason (none of which involved celebrating racism or slavery).

It is only a general misunderstanding (or even ignorance?) that drives someone to conclude that.

As I nioted before, the motivations and philosophies that led to the civil war were extremely nuanced. The general impression that it was about slavery is correct, but incredibly shallow.

More people like you please! Far too many people are choosing to be offended by the flag, and yes it is absolutely a choice. When it is hung, completely in context, there should be no debate. You should just bail out of this thread right now because you have made every point as clear and concise as one person ever could. Nothing you say beyond this point can change the minds of people who want to see the flag in the hands of racists and bigots and not as a moment in the history of the US.

 

[englanddg]

As was stated earlier,


Rather a simplistic view of history omitting lots of facts and interjecting a political bias. One in particular was a sovereign country (Texas), so why isn't it flown equally as well as the flags of the indigenous populations ?

Under the Articles of Confederation adopted in 1781, and the United States Constitution, ratified in 1789 . This union was widely understood by both the states and the federal government to be voluntary, and the Constitution was interpreted to reinforce this perspective. At the same time, the founding fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, recognized the states' right to secede. This I point out as your pejorative claim of "traitors" is baseless as the states were acting under the agreements as interpreted by the founders.

The current politically correctness (PC) fervor that's the popular rage attempts to silence everyone. There's not as a right to not be offended.

And, to back up your inferred point about context, the flag of the Republic of Texas (as well as the Republic of California...yes, that's right, it was a nation before it was a state) are also displayed in the Hall of Flags.

 

[Matt_Black]

As was stated earlier,


Rather a simplistic view of history omitting lots of facts and interjecting a political bias. One in particular was a sovereign country (Texas), so why isn't it flown equally as well as the flags of the indigenous populations ?

Under the Articles of Confederation adopted in 1781, and the United States Constitution, ratified in 1789 . This union was widely understood by both the states and the federal government to be voluntary, and the Constitution was interpreted to reinforce this perspective. At the same time, the founding fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, recognized the states' right to secede. This I point out as your pejorative claim of "traitors" is baseless as the states were acting under the agreements as interpreted by the founders.

The current politically correctness (PC) fervor that's the popular rage attempts to silence everyone. There's not as a right to not be offended.

The right in question they were seceding over was the right to own slaves. The Confederate Congress explicitly forbid any Confederate state from abolishing slavery on their own. Furthermore, in 1863 Confederate General Patrick Cleburne proposed a plan of manumission and emancipation- it was his hope that this would give the South more manpower while eliminating the North's moral highground. He presented his proposal to the Confederate Congress where he was met with absolute silence and shown the door when he was finished without comment.

 

[Next Big Thing]

This thread will likely be locked before noon with a topic so political.

 

[FerretAfros]

As long as we're going down this road...

How long until Six Flags is forced to change their name? They took their name from the six countries that have ruled Texas, including the Confederacy. Since all the current fervor is tied directly to the flag itself, this seems like an especially contentious name at the moment.

Epcot has always at least had the pretense of being educational and does a pretty good job of treating history with dignity and respect for their background. Six Flags has no such illusions or context, and truly gains nothing out of including the flag in their tally

 

[ABQ]

As long as we're going down this road...

How long until Six Flags is forced to change their name? They took their name from the six countries that have ruled Texas, including the Confederacy. Since all the current fervor is tied directly to the flag itself, this seems like an especially contentious name at the moment.

Epcot has always at least had the pretense of being educational and does a pretty good job of treating history with dignity and respect for their background. Six Flags has no such illusions or context, and truly gains nothing out of including the flag in their tally

the quick alliteration of Five Flags would make it flow off the tongue less easily.

 

[ABQ]

@englanddg , just wanted to give you kudos for a very well stated discussion throughout this thread, firing on all 12 cylinders with not one shred of out of line grammar. Proving a topical, even in based in politics, line of dialogue can be made without being locked. Though as sure as I am that WDW will come up with an new upcharged event to take our money over the next year, someone will find a way to through a spanner into this thread and force the powers that be to lock it.

 

[Matt_Black]

I think everything has been very civil so far. (Pardon the unintentional pun).