Orlando Sentinel - Disney autism disability lawsuit moves to Orlando federal court

[dumboflyer]

First, nobody would be required to do anything. If you want to pre-register from home you need a doctor's note, if you choose not to provide that you can request the card in person. It is not illegal under HIPPA if the information is provided directly from the patient. I'm not sure how it is a "privacy violation".

Under the ADA it is not prohibited for Disney to require proof of a disability as long as they using that proof to determine if a person needs an accomodation and are not going to use the information to discriminate against the customer or prohibit them from entry to the park:

Absolutely agree on both fronts. Privacy as it relates to HIPAA is entirely an issue of a medical provider not sharing medical information with a third party without the patient's consent. A patient requesting documentation to provide is completely legit. And providing proof of a disability is a major part of making an ADA reasonable accommodation request.

A good step for Disney might be to make a "Guests with Disabilities" page within their website, which has (among other resources) a form for a doctor to use. The form could shape the situation a bit better in terms of what situations would warrant enhanced access of some kind. Requiring that it come directly from the doctor's office could also help. While it would definitely not cut out fraud entirely, it would cut down on fraud.

 

[dumboflyer]

Having a form letter which your doctor fills out and signs takes all of the guess work away from the $10.35 CM.

Jinx. Buy me a Dole Whip.

 

[GoofGoof]

Unless you know the lawyers involved, let's keep the gloves up. There are lots of us who take cases to help and do not get rich doing so. There are lots of ADA-related cases, in particular, that turn into little- or no-profit cases since remedies are often changes in practice or physical construction, rather than monetary judgments. It's entirely possible the plaintiffs' attorneys are only in this case for the money, but that's not necessarily a fair assumption to make without more background.

Fair enough. I don't know the full situation. The only mention of money changing hands in the filing is for legal fees, but I'm sure that's just standard practice and will only possibly happen if the plaintiffs win.

 

[scooned]

Please recall that even Disney has admitted that some modification is necessary for those with Autism, which is why DAS was enacted.

Please try to think of this as a physical disability. The Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) protects both mental and physical disabilities.

Disney has offered someone in a wheelchair an access ramp. The person in the wheelchair has said that's not good enough. In order to get to where they need to go, they need an elevator.

I believe most people would agree that an access ramp is sufficient for small height gains but insufficient for large height gains (e.g. getting to the third floor of a building).

There are extensive building codes governing what must be provided for physical disabilities. When it comes to this type of physical disability, there is a tremendous amount of precedent already established.

However, when it comes to mental disabilities, there is very little. In this sense, the lawsuit is breaking new ground.

Again, Disney is not arguing with the plaintiffs that some modification is needed.

Instead, Disney and the plaintiffs are arguing over how much of a modification is needed. Is a ramp or an elevator required?

I lack the medical background to fully appreciate the symptoms of Autism. As a spectrum disorder, I suspect there is no "one size fits all" answer. For some, no modification is needed. For others, a ramp might be enough. For others, an elevator might be needed. In the most severe cases, no amount of "reasonable modification" is possible so, for those, they will never be able to visit WDW.

I am hopeful that medical professionals will get involved and provide the Courts with guidance as to what's appropriate.

No matter how this turns out, everyone's opinions of the lawsuit provide for some interesting reading.

Thank you! This is one of the best explanations i have seen about the mental handicap that these people have. Like a psychical handicap, they have a mental one.

This is usually my go to explanation, A teacher explaining to her students that some peoples needs are different than others. The definition of fair, as not equal, but fair means everyone gets what they need.

I have used the explanation of purchasing books for a three year old niece, an eight year old nephew, and a fifteen year old niece. I tell them I want to buy books for these relatives and show them a book appropriate for the three year old. I say, “This is the book I purchased for the three year old. To be fair, should I give this same book to the eight year old and the fifteen year old?” Most children reach the conclusion that the same book is not appropriate…each would enjoy a different book. I generalize this to how in the classroom it is necessary for a teacher to change things to be a better fit for students…everyone gets what he/she needs but they may need different things.

 

[LadyJubilee]

This is a good read from a practicing attorney on the case (as it stood in May): http://www.legalrollercoaster.com/2014/05/here-now-prologue-question-of-autism-in.htmlss

He raises an interesting question... why isn't the a problem at grocery stores, theaters, local events.... As the parent of a child on the severely impacted side I know the answer. Some of my son's classmates go nowhere other than school. No restaurants, no movies, no parks. Some are not even able to activities during school with a two to one ratio (two adults to one child).

The reality is that MOST people really do go about their days and never see a severely impacted child.... let alone an adult. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a child that plucks their own eyes? One that incessantly, and I mean that literally, screams. A child that self injures?

So it's an interesting question, but the conclusion seems to be that since the kids are not accommodated at grocery stores or restaurants, they shouldn't be accommodated at Disney either doesn't make since to me.

The other point he raised is that if DAS doesn't work for the individual, and ADA is about the individual not a group that shares a diagnosis, individualized accommodations can be made (which I gather is what the law required.) However, my understanding of the plaintiffs' argument is that this isn't happening.

Again, DAS is probably going to 6work for my son..... it wouldn't work for some of his classmates, which is sad. For about six weeks after visiting we see more language, more socialization, more reaction from my son.

 

[HunterJ]

This is my first post, but have been lurking for a bit

We just got back from WDW the other day. Had a great time.

Our son is Autistic. He is a non-verbal, sensory seeking 3 year old...but he had a great time. We used the DAC a few times and my wife and I, with no previous experience with the GAP, thought it worked splendidly.

We tried our best to be courteous to avoid any meltdowns, I would go to get the DAC signed without him seeing me or knowing what i was doing, and there ya go, come back an hour later and get on our ride. He was never the wiser and still had a great time.

I don't expect other people to move mountains to accomidate my son. This is something that our family, and he as he gets older, will have to learn to work with...however, i do appreciate the flexibility that WDW gave us.

As for riding over and over, the only time we did that was on Nemo...but there was no wait (just a long walk through the Queue) and we didn't use our DAC for that...so any person could have done the same thing.

The only place we had a problem was at Pixar Place (meeting Woody and Buzz). He lives for Toy Story and Cars. The line to meet Woody and Buzz stretched 2 hours due to TSMM being on fastpass only, so everyone was waiting around. I asked if we could return at a time, they said no, I asked if I could wait in line, and then my wife bring him to the exit when it was our turn, they said no, so we would ALL have to wait in line for 2 hours, and ruin our day and every other person in lines day.

Luckily, a big wig was walking by (as they were doing surveys at TSMM and he was checking on how the FP only was working) and corrected the CM in the queue). I was able to wait in line and then they come in the exit after the 2 hours.

it was worth it. When buzz gave him a high 5, and woody a hug, it was the best thing ever!

 

[natatomic]

The only place we had a problem was at Pixar Place (meeting Woody and Buzz). He lives for Toy Story and Cars. The line to meet Woody and Buzz stretched 2 hours due to TSMM being on fastpass only, so everyone was waiting around. I asked if we could return at a time, they said no, I asked if I could wait in line, and then my wife bring him to the exit when it was our turn, they said no, so we would ALL have to wait in line for 2 hours, and ruin our day and every other person in lines day.

Luckily, a big wig was walking by (as they were doing surveys at TSMM and he was checking on how the FP only was working) and corrected the CM in the queue). I was able to wait in line and then they come in the exit after the 2 hours.

First of all, I'm glad you had a great vacation, I'm glad that the DAS helped you out, and I'm glad you were accommodated when trying to meet the characters.

However, I have to make a comment about the part of your story that I bolded: the big wig did not "correct" the CM. As far as I know the rules have not changed and DAS is not supposed to be used for meet and greets. Nor is it standard procedure that they allow someone to wait in line for the whole party and then the rest of the party comes in thru the exit when the person in line is at the end. It's a GREAT idea - I totally agree with you that it makes sense, and I kinda wish that WAS the procedure - but I'm guessing that the CM told you no because you were probably one of several dozen DAS users that had asked similar questions, and the lines simply don't have the infrastructure to allow that kind of meeting thru the exit. Yes, it works for one family, but if you do it for one family, you must do it for all, and there simply isn't room at most attractions/M&Gs. The CM simply said no because that is the correct procedure. I'm not saying he/she couldn't have made an exception - CMs have that power sometimes, but I cant speculate as to why he didn't other than, like I said, he can't just go bending the rules every single time someone asks.

Please don't take this as me saying you shouldn't have been accommodated! I am very glad the bigwig was able to help you out. But as a cast member who has had to tell many guests "no" for various reasons, I want to make sure you realize that the manager was making an exception - it's not that the CM was wrong and needed to be "corrected." It always drove me crazy when a manager would accommodate a guest and then that guest would make a remark that I didn't know how to do my job, when actually I was doing my job 100% correctly!

Sorry, didn't mean to get this top it off track, I just wanted to defend the CM who can't speak for himself here!

 

[arko]

First of all, I'm glad you had a great vacation, I'm glad that the DAS helped you out, and I'm glad you were accommodated when trying to meet the characters.

However, I have to make a comment about the part of your story that I bolded: the big wig did not "correct" the CM. As far as I know the rules have not changed and DAS is not supposed to be used for meet and greets. Nor is it standard procedure that they allow someone to wait in line for the whole party and then the rest of the party comes in thru the exit when the person in line is at the end. It's a GREAT idea - I totally agree with you that it makes sense, and I kinda wish that WAS the procedure - but I'm guessing that the CM told you no because you were probably one of several dozen DAS users that had asked similar questions, and the lines simply don't have the infrastructure to allow that kind of meeting thru the exit. Yes, it works for one family, but if you do it for one family, you must do it for all, and there simply isn't room at most attractions/M&Gs. The CM simply said no because that is the correct procedure. I'm not saying he/she couldn't have made an exception - CMs have that power sometimes, but I cant speculate as to why he didn't other than, like I said, he can't just go bending the rules every single time someone asks.

Please don't take this as me saying you shouldn't have been accommodated! I am very glad the bigwig was able to help you out. But as a cast member who has had to tell many guests "no" for various reasons, I want to make sure you realize that the manager was making an exception - it's not that the CM was wrong and needed to be "corrected." It always drove me crazy when a manager would accommodate a guest and then that guest would make a remark that I didn't know how to do my job, when actually I was doing my job 100% correctly!

Sorry, didn't mean to get this top it off track, I just wanted to defend the CM who can't speak for himself here!

Meet and greet spots that have FP+ are supposed to accept DAS.

 

[natatomic]

Meet and greet spots that have FP+ are supposed to accept DAS.

True. That is correct, but do Woody and Buzz have FP+? I don't think they do, but I honestly don't know, so I could be mistaken.

 

[Rutt]

First of all, I'm glad you had a great vacation, I'm glad that the DAS helped you out, and I'm glad you were accommodated when trying to meet the characters.

However, I have to make a comment about the part of your story that I bolded: the big wig did not "correct" the CM. As far as I know the rules have not changed and DAS is not supposed to be used for meet and greets. Nor is it standard procedure that they allow someone to wait in line for the whole party and then the rest of the party comes in thru the exit when the person in line is at the end. It's a GREAT idea - I totally agree with you that it makes sense, and I kinda wish that WAS the procedure - but I'm guessing that the CM told you no because you were probably one of several dozen DAS users that had asked similar questions, and the lines simply don't have the infrastructure to allow that kind of meeting thru the exit. Yes, it works for one family, but if you do it for one family, you must do it for all, and there simply isn't room at most attractions/M&Gs. The CM simply said no because that is the correct procedure. I'm not saying he/she couldn't have made an exception - CMs have that power sometimes, but I cant speculate as to why he didn't other than, like I said, he can't just go bending the rules every single time someone asks.

Please don't take this as me saying you shouldn't have been accommodated! I am very glad the bigwig was able to help you out. But as a cast member who has had to tell many guests "no" for various reasons, I want to make sure you realize that the manager was making an exception - it's not that the CM was wrong and needed to be "corrected." It always drove me crazy when a manager would accommodate a guest and then that guest would make a remark that I didn't know how to do my job, when actually I was doing my job 100% correctly!

Sorry, didn't mean to get this top it off track, I just wanted to defend the CM who can't speak for himself here!

I understand the reasoning for the rules and can just imagine how cluttered an exit COULD get for this, but I also wonder if there could not be a way to accommodate situations like this? MGs are a huge part of WDW. I would be rather upset if my child was denied this experience because of a condition that I feel Disney otherwise accommodates very well.

True. That is correct, but do Woody and Buzz have FP+? I don't think they do, but I honestly don't know, so I could be mistaken.

They do not. At least not as of September when I was there

 

[natatomic]

I understand the reasoning for the rules and can just imagine how cluttered an exit COULD get for this, but I also wonder if there could not be a way to accommodate situations like this? MGs are a huge part of WDW. I would be rather upset if my child was denied this experience because of a condition that I feel Disney otherwise accommodates very well.

My guess - and again, this is only a guess - is that due to the line being SO crowded (which in turn was due to the test at TSMM), they were even more unable to make as many accommodations as they normally would. At the same time, I think the card states that it is not accepted at all locations, and again it's a tough call to make as to who you make the exception for and who you say no. DAS cards are still pretty common (I mean, it's a low percentage of guests, but even a low percentage at Disney can translate to a couple thousand people depending on the day), so do you accommodate everyone and make the place a madhouse/fire hazard/inflated wait time (which also can make other CMs' jobs more difficult if someone accommodated a guest who then goes to another place that normally doesn't accept DAS and then complain, "Well, they did it for us at X. Obviously you're just being rude," (which I have heard numerous times from enforcing a rule that someone else bent just to be nice), or do you hold everyone to the same rule to make it fair? And if you do make an exception here and there, how do you choose who NEEDS or deserves the exception? Believe me, I feel for both the CMs AND the guests in these situations, because there really is no cut and dry answer in these situations. It's a hard decision to make!

 

[Rutt]

My guess - and again, this is only a guess - is that due to the line being SO crowded (which in turn was due to the test at TSMM), they were even more unable to make as many accommodations as they normally would. At the same time, I think the card states that it is not accepted at all locations, and again it's a tough call to make as to who you make the exception for and who you say no. DAS cards are still pretty common (I mean, it's a low percentage of guests, but even a low percentage at Disney can translate to a couple thousand people depending on the day), so do you accommodate everyone and make the place a madhouse/fire hazard/inflated wait time (which also can make other CMs' jobs more difficult if someone accommodated a guest who then goes to another place that normally doesn't accept DAS and then complain, "Well, they did it for us at X. Obviously you're just being rude," (which I have heard numerous times from enforcing a rule that someone else bent just to be nice), or do you hold everyone to the same rule to make it fair? And if you do make an exception here and there, how do you choose who NEEDS or deserves the exception? Believe me, I feel for both the CMs AND the guests in these situations, because there really is no cut and dry answer in these situations. It's a hard decision to make!

I get that, I meant on a larger scale. A way that CMs would not have to 'make an exception' but instead have some sort of return policy using the existing technology?

 

[natatomic]

I get that, I meant on a larger scale. A way that CMs would not have to 'make an exception' but instead have some sort of return policy using the existing technology?

Oh, yeah. I think we're all scratching our heads on that one as to why Disney hasn't done something like that by now!

 

[Rutt]

Oh, yeah. I think we're all scratching our heads on that one as to why Disney hasn't done something like that by now!

Glad Im not alone then. I think Disney does so many things so well, and gets grief for a lot of small things that seem to fall through the cracks but are fairly easily remedied.

 

[arko]

True. That is correct, but do Woody and Buzz have FP+? I don't think they do, but I honestly don't know, so I could be mistaken.

no it doesn't, I was simply commenting on the general statement that meet and greets didn't allow the DAS

 

[HunterJ]

They do not have a fast pass at that location. It was quite hectic that day at DHS!

I appreciate them "bending" a rule for us, though i expect no preferential treatment beyond what is allowed per the rules.

As for the lawsuit, as a parent, i find it absurd. Could things be better, sure, but they have more than provided what the ADA requires.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

The other point he raised is that if DAS doesn't work for the individual, and ADA is about the individual not a group that shares a diagnosis, individualized accommodations can be made (which I gather is what the law required.) However, my understanding of the plaintiffs' argument is that this isn't happening.

The ADA is all about equal accessibility and reasonable accommodation. If Disney gives you the ability to wait the duration of the queue because you possess a disability that prevents you from physically doing so and in all other aspects besides the physical waiting your experience is identical to that of a guest without disabilities, then that meets the definition of equal accessibility and reasonable accommodation in the eyes of the law.

What the plantiffs are arguing is that being asked to wait elsewhere the same duration of time as a non-disabled guest (and in reality they knock 10 minutes off) somewhere besides the queue is not a fair or reasonable enough accommodation for autistic children as it causes "meltdowns" and that they should be given immediate access.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

The ADA is all about equal accessibility and reasonable accommodation. If Disney gives you the ability to wait the duration of the queue because you possess a disability that prevents you from physically doing so and in all other aspects besides the physical waiting your experience is identical to that of a guest without disabilities, then that meets the definition of equal accessibility and reasonable accommodation in the eyes of the law.

What the plantiffs are arguing is that being asked to wait elsewhere the same duration of time as a non-disabled guest (and in reality they knock 10 minutes off) somewhere besides the queue is not a fair or reasonable enough accommodation for autistic children as it causes "meltdowns" and that they should be given immediate access.

Agreed.

The meltdown claim is just ridiculous. Waiting is intrinsic to the nature of such attractions. If someone is unable to deal with waiting at all, then they should not be subjected to temptations said environment offers.
If in the extremely unlikely chance they win, everyone should get a DAS and demand immediate access to avoid them having a meltdown just to prove how stupid it is.

The reason they knock 10 minutes off though is because that is the general/average wait time when accessing an attraction using FP. If they didn't do this then the plaintiffs would be adding to the superfluous claim that they were being forced to wait longer than the regular line time.

 

[Disney6166]

I'm not very well read on the ADA guidelines, but my understanding of it was that, broadly speaking, people with disabilities should be entitled to the same rights as those who are not disabled - and should not be discriminated against in either a positive or negative way.

In my view, Disney has raised the bar in equality for all guests, whether disabled or not whilst still providing an accommodating service as is feasibly possible.

If you truly believe what you are saying then everybody should have to stand in line or use the FP+ system like everybody else.

 

[Goofyernmost]

If you truly believe what you are saying then everybody should have to stand in line or use the FP+ system like everybody else.

That is true, but, in short, they have disabilities and are not able to do that, nor do they have some magic spell that will guarantee them FP+ availability through standard procedures. FP+ is deemed necessary for them because of the disability, but that doesn't mean that they can just come up to the entrance, say they can't wait and demand that they be let in right away. It means that they can go to an attraction that currently has a fairly long wait time, tell them that they need to not stand in line and then they are issued a "special" FP that allows them to not have to stand in line, but, is equivalent in time to doing just that. The difference is that they are not physically standing in the line.

That was the problem and DAS is the solution. It allowed equal access, but, not really special access. There are other things to do while waiting, for their time. That, in and of itself, is special treatment, because the rest of us cannot do that, but, it is as fair as it can get, in my opinion.