Orlando Sentinel - Disney autism disability lawsuit moves to Orlando federal court

BigThunderMatt

Well-Known Member
I think stating that parents are using their child's disability for pity and special treatment is going a tad too far. While I personally think the plaintiffs are overreaching and Disney is providing was is reasonable under the ADA, I don't doubt that these parents feel they are advocating for their child, a little misguided perhaps.

I'm not completely disregarding the fact that there may be a few individuals with noble intentions involved in this case. But I've been on the receiving end of an adult temper tantrum far too many times ("My child has this" "My child has that" "You're not a parent you don't understand" "My child deserves better") yet said child is sitting there contently for 45 minutes while parent continues to rant and demand immediate access to everything for me to take even half of these folks seriously.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I'm not completely disregarding the fact that there may be a few individuals with noble intentions involved in this case. But I've been on the receiving end of an adult temper tantrum far too many times ("My child has this" "My child has that" "You're not a parent you don't understand" "My child deserves better") yet said child is sitting there contently for 45 minutes while parent continues to rant and demand immediate access to everything for me to take even half of these folks seriously.
Were the folks that did that to you involved in this lawsuit?
 

COrunner

Well-Known Member
I'm still trying to determine if the inclusion of the DVC membership purchases and payments on the mortgages was for sympathy or to lay the groundwork for additional damages.

I see it as groundwork. It is a foothold to bleed the beast in other actions if they win. Also it brings more people in the mix who feel disenfranchised as their current base would be the parents/people who are genuinely disabled and want to pursue a case, and those that feel their disabilities qualify them to get the same treatment.

My experience in the park is those that have honest disabilities don't want the attention/preferential treatment, they just want to go the parks and experience the magic we love. I empathize and want them to have that experience. The squeaky wheels or people that demand special treatment are usually less than forthcoming about their impairments, so I hope they are treated just as guests, same as myself and my family.

The only way to sway public opinion here is to make Disney the villain without having to go into WHY they are. DISNEY REMOVES HANDICAP PRIVILEGES! is a better headline than DISNEY REWRITES GUEST ASSISTANCE PROGRAM.

I also think pulling in angry DVC members is a way to tap into people upset with Disney who also still care about Disney. It is safe to assume most forum members are fans, even if we get a little snarky at times. Outside though there are a lot of people that don't care about the mouse at all, so this issue isn't on their radar. Unless they can paint Disney as a greedy corporation who hates the handicapped.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I see it as groundwork. It is a foothold to bleed the beast in other actions if they win. Also it brings more people in the mix who feel disenfranchised as their current base would be the parents/people who are genuinely disabled and want to pursue a case, and those that feel their disabilities qualify them to get the same treatment.
The lawyers are collecting more plaintiffs for a reason. I doubt they’d be going this far, with such “inflammatory language”, just to get Disney to go back to GAC. If they ever won on that DVC point, they might have a large class action suit on their hands.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
The lawyers are collecting more plaintiffs for a reason. I doubt they’d be going this far, with such “inflammatory language”, just to get Disney to go back to GAC. If they ever won on that DVC point, they might have a large class action suit on their hands.

How big could that class be, though?
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
How big could that class be, though?
You’d be surprised. The “autism demo” for Disney is a lot larger than people think. And because of the nature of autism (special diets, difficulty with hotel rooms, consistency) DVC is actually ideal for repeat visitors with autism. I don’t even claim to be able to predict numbers. But if 1 in 68 are diagnosed in the US now, you can get a rough estimate off of that ratio proportional to DVC owners.

Regardless of severity or need, they will hunt down any DVC owner with a diagnosis and try to get them involved.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
After reading the plaintiffs' complaint and other posters comments, these are my observations on the matter.

Disney has done an admirable job providing accommodation for those individuals covered under the ADA. In fact, I think Disney has gone beyond what is required. Is the new system perfect? No, but neither was the old one. Disney has to accommodate a wide range of disabilities and will never be able to please everyone. And remember, the majority of people attending Disney parks are not disabled and Disney must also consider their access to its attractions. As an analogy, think of affirmative action. A policy implemented by the Nixon administration to address the historical wrongs suffered by individuals who are members of the discriminated classes protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. As entities - employers, institutions of higher education, etc. - struggled to implement the requirements of this policy - they came up with a measure that over time become an anathema to those individuals who were not members of the protected classes in the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The result, Allan Bakke successfully sues U.C. Davis over admission to medical school, citing reverse discrimination, quotas are determined to be impermissible in college admissions, 2 additional cases follow and now university systems have discarded affirmative action in admission decisions and other factors affecting students, like scholarships that are just for women or Asians or other affected classes. And affirmative action in general is now dead. The unintended result? California, after the Michigan ruling, saw a drop in enrollment of Hispanics and African-Americans, the very individuals affirmative action was attempting to help. My point, after this long winded (and I apologize) story? That well meant but unreasonable demands for special treatment, especially when those demanding such are a small segment of the general population (and yes, it is important to protect the small segment from the capriciousness of the majority) sometimes has a consequence that undermines the original intent. Which can be confirmed by some of the comments on this thread.

Do I think the parents in this litigation bear some of the responsibility? Most definitely. My child is not disabled. But I have friends who do have disabled children and have witnessed their struggles to provide a rich, rewarding experience for their child. However, they also recognize the limitations their child's disability places on those experiences and understand that their child may not be able to experience everything my non-disabled child can. In other words, they would think carefully about taking their child to a venue that experiences crowds of 10,000, 20,000 people. And if they did and the family, especially their child, had an unpleasant experience, would realize that is not an appropriate environment to place their child in, especially if the organization controlling that environment did make every attempt to mitigate the impact of the child's disability on the child's enjoyment.

Personally, I've never witnessed the behavior attributed to Cast Members as outlined in the complaint. I have found all my interactions with CMs to be pleasant, funny and helpful. However, I am not the parent of a disabled child. But I have witnessed CMs taking unwarranted abuse from guests. Does Disney need to provide additional training for its front office staff? Sounds like it - and in the process will identify those employees who might be better suited for jobs at Disney that don't directly interact with guests.

Just my long two cents. :)
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
How big could that class be, though?

However, as I have stated previously, what breach of contract would this entail? These are contracts that govern the purchase of real estate interests and as such fall under the purview of Florida real estate law, not the ADA. There is nothing in the DVC contract for purchase of said interest that references or guarantees accommodations for either park admission or rides. This operation is handled by a completely separate division of Disney.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
You’d be surprised. The “autism demo” for Disney is a lot larger than people think. And because of the nature of autism (special diets, difficulty with hotel rooms, consistency) DVC is actually ideal for repeat visitors with autism. I don’t even claim to be able to predict numbers. But if 1 in 68 are diagnosed in the US now, you can get a rough estimate off of that ratio proportional to DVC owners.

Regardless of severity or need, they will hunt down any DVC owner with a diagnosis and try to get them involved.

I'm a DVC owner and I would be not happy if the lawyers representing these individuals tried to drag that operation into this. Merit, please? Everyone can sue, but only 50% win. As a DVC owner, I might join Disney as a friend of the court.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I'm a DVC owner and I would be not happy if the lawyers representing these individuals tried to drag that operation into this. Merit, please? Everyone can sue, but only 50% win. As a DVC owner, I might join Disney as a friend of the court.
Hey I'd be on Disney's side to. But unfortunately, merit is not always the end all be all in the legal system. I'm just saying it would be a game changer if for some reason the court did find Disney accountable for DVC purchase in some way.

Would they have to offer a buy back option for points? Pay off back dues? If owners had to sell back their points to be involved in the suit, how many would put their money where their mouths are? Would they truly be willing to give up their Disney fix for the suit? It would be very telling to see how much their experiences were truly ruined, if they had to give that up to be part of the complaint.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Hey I'd be on Disney's side to. But unfortunately, merit is not always the end all be all in the legal system. I'm just saying it would be a game changer if for some reason the court did find Disney accountable for DVC purchase in some way.

Would they have to offer a buy back option for points? Pay off back dues? If owners had to sell back their points to be involved in the suit, how many would put their money where their mouths are? Would they truly be willing to give up their Disney fix for the suit? It would be very telling to see how much their experiences were truly ruined, if they had to give that up to be part of the complaint.
I might not have all of the facts, but I thought the plaintiffs were not asking for direct financial compensation with this case. I was under the impression that the goal was to "force" Disney to implement a different system that they would consider adequate to meet their needs. Only the lawyers get paid.

Buying DVC points is a real estate transaction. It would be a major precedent for the court to rule that the plantiffs in an ADA case could be reimbursed for the cost of real estate purchased. The trickle down impact of that kind of ruling could be pretty major.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I might not have all of the facts, but I thought the plaintiffs were not asking for direct financial compensation with this case. I was under the impression that the goal was to "force" Disney to implement a different system that they would consider adequate to meet their needs. Only the lawyers get paid.

Buying DVC points is a real estate transaction. It would be a major precedent for the court to rule that the plantiffs in an ADA case could be reimbursed for the cost of real estate purchased. The trickle down impact of that kind of ruling could be pretty major.
That is all correct. There was speculation earlier in the thread that the plaintiffs were referencing DVC value and dues to set the stage for future claims. That's what this chain of posts is currently based on. But I agree. That would be a significant turn for this case if the plaintiffs went after DVC money and somehow won (which seems unlikely at this point).
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
That is all correct. There was speculation earlier in the thread that the plaintiffs were referencing DVC value and dues to set the stage for future claims. That's what this chain of posts is currently based on. But I agree. That would be a significant turn for this case if the plaintiffs went after DVC money and somehow won (which seems unlikely at this point).
Ok. Makes sense.

The plaintiffs have very little shot of gaining much if anything financially. I'm not sure they even have much of a case to force a change in policy. I think maybe the original goal was to get Disney to offer an out of court compromise, but both sides are dug in and that seems very unlikely at this point. The further this goes the worse it is for both sides.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
That is all correct. There was speculation earlier in the thread that the plaintiffs were referencing DVC value and dues to set the stage for future claims. That's what this chain of posts is currently based on. But I agree. That would be a significant turn for this case if the plaintiffs went after DVC money and somehow won (which seems unlikely at this point).

I was one of those speculators. I was puzzled why the purchase and payment of DVC memberships were addressed by several of the plaintiffs - one plaintiff provided a breakout of their monthly mortgage payment between principle and interest and the annual dues payment. Why would a lawsuit claiming lack of access under the ADA also contain financial information about real estate transactions of the plaintiffs? Especially language about the wonderful and positive accommodations Disney promised at DVC. For sympathy? To prove to the court what a villain Disney has become? Or to lay the groundwork for additional litigation - "we bought DVC because Disney said that would be the best solution for hotel accommodations for our family with a special needs child. And now, because of Disney's refusal to provide access in its parks and really doesn't want us to visit, that DVC membership no longer has value for us." That's when you sell your interest.... Like I said, I just found it puzzling to see that information detailed in such a filing.
 

Bluewaves

Well-Known Member
I personally see nothing wrong with the new system and I am in fact very happy it replaced the old system which was abused to no end. If these parents set a reasonable expectation for their children than they would have no issue.

But for example lets say your autisic childs favorite ride was Snow White Scary Adventure, well it no longer exists, so your child who is so set to their "favorite" and "repeatable experience" can no longer go on this attraction does Disney owe you something? Is that reason enough to for Disney to offer you something, refund your DVC membership?

Part of the Disney Trip is something new and things change, well they way you are accommodated in the parks changed so set that expectation, someone in your group sans the disabled guest goes and gets a ride time and then they take the group to the ride when its their time, in the mean time get them an ice cream, see a parade, etc....

For someone to then claim they are unable to meet a specific time or time frame is ludicrous, how do these people go to Doctor's or other appointments? They set a time and make it there.

I understand if there is anger that since this policy change they no longer see as much or any value in their DVC membership, well then they can sell it, the same as if I had a vacation home in a little quiet town that is no longer so little or quiet.

Reasonable accommodation is just that reasonable, your child can't wait in line, alright then, you can come back at a set time and then directly board the ride, seems reasonable to me.

The big problem is Disney went above and beyond for years in offering solutions via the GAC, as the parks have grown and grown and grown that is no longer practical and was so abused it wasn't even funny. So the policy needed to change. There is no guarantee that things will stay the same at WDW or DL as I am reminded by any discussion about certain rides and attractions and entertainment being replaced.

These people need to get over it already and I hope this goes in the dust bin as soon as possible and I hope Disney, Universal , Six Flags, Cedar Fair and every other park operator gets on board fighting this as hard as possible.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
I personally see nothing wrong with the new system and I am in fact very happy it replaced the old system which was abused to no end. If these parents set a reasonable expectation for their children than they would have no issue.

But for example lets say your autisic childs favorite ride was Snow White Scary Adventure, well it no longer exists, so your child who is so set to their "favorite" and "repeatable experience" can no longer go on this attraction does Disney owe you something? Is that reason enough to for Disney to offer you something, refund your DVC membership?

Part of the Disney Trip is something new and things change, well they way you are accommodated in the parks changed so set that expectation, someone in your group sans the disabled guest goes and gets a ride time and then they take the group to the ride when its their time, in the mean time get them an ice cream, see a parade, etc....

For someone to then claim they are unable to meet a specific time or time frame is ludicrous, how do these people go to Doctor's or other appointments? They set a time and make it there.

I understand if there is anger that since this policy change they no longer see as much or any value in their DVC membership, well then they can sell it, the same as if I had a vacation home in a little quiet town that is no longer so little or quiet.

Reasonable accommodation is just that reasonable, your child can't wait in line, alright then, you can come back at a set time and then directly board the ride, seems reasonable to me.

The big problem is Disney went above and beyond for years in offering solutions via the GAC, as the parks have grown and grown and grown that is no longer practical and was so abused it wasn't even funny. So the policy needed to change. There is no guarantee that things will stay the same at WDW or DL as I am reminded by any discussion about certain rides and attractions and entertainment being replaced.

These people need to get over it already and I hope this goes in the dust bin as soon as possible and I hope Disney, Universal , Six Flags, Cedar Fair and every other park operator gets on board fighting this as hard as possible.

I too hope Disney doesn't settle. Just read their press release in response to the filing and if that is a good indication of their position, then they won't. I would imagine Disney lawyers are preparing their response to the plaintiffs' complaint, refuting each allegation, citing relevant case law, like Autism Tours v. Carnival and requesting a dismissal on lack of merit. And nothing prevents Comcast (as parent company of Universal) and other theme park operators from filing friend of the court briefs in support of Disney. Now wouldn't that be rich, Disney and Universal as courtroom friends....
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I was one of those speculators. I was puzzled why the purchase and payment of DVC memberships were addressed by several of the plaintiffs - one plaintiff provided a breakout of their monthly mortgage payment between principle and interest and the annual dues payment. Why would a lawsuit claiming lack of access under the ADA also contain financial information about real estate transactions of the plaintiffs? Especially language about the wonderful and positive accommodations Disney promised at DVC. For sympathy? To prove to the court what a villain Disney has become? Or to lay the groundwork for additional litigation - "we bought DVC because Disney said that would be the best solution for hotel accommodations for our family with a special needs child. And now, because of Disney's refusal to provide access in its parks and really doesn't want us to visit, that DVC membership no longer has value for us." That's when you sell your interest.... Like I said, I just found it puzzling to see that information detailed in such a filing.
It's possible they are laying the groundwork for some additional litigation, but I don't interpret it that way. The way the filing is laid out each plaintiff establishes their past enjoyment of the Disney parks and then lays out how the new system impacts them. In this case I think they are bringing up DVC ownership to further solidify the claim that they were frequent and loyal customers who consistently enjoyed the parks enough to buy a timeshare there.
 

TRONorail12

Active Member
See Complaint #631 - that plaintiff's incident occurred before the implementation of DAS in 2013. It addresses the opening of Radiator Springs in 2012. Which confirms what I've read previously. This really started with the opening of Radiator Springs in 2012 and how Disney accommodated GACs for children with developmental or cognitive disorders. And every family that is a DVC member addresses the cost of their ownership - annual dues, monthly payment, total cost of the contract. Which makes me think that as this progresses through the court, the plaintiffs' who are DVC members will be asking for damages in the form of compensation for their DVC membership payments. Why else provide such detail in a complaint?

My concern is that if the plaintiffs' prevail, then as CORunner mentioned, there will be lawsuits demanding immediate seating in restaurants and line jumping at retail establishments. At that time, you will see pushback from the non-disabled community similar to what happened with affirmative action - charges of reverse discrimination. Not the intent of these well meaning parents. If you don't think this is possible, there's some land in Florida I want to sell you....

As one of my professors told me, your rights stop at my nose.

Believe me, I've already seen people try to use DAS at some Disney restaurants. CM's did a great job of clarifying that the card was for attractions only and not restaurants. My only thought is that if this entire case was taken out of Disney and applied to any other real world situation, there would be no case. But because it involves a Disney park, it is at least going to be heard in court. I don't see parents suing Walmart to have a disability fastpass cashier line.

I do not think the ADA should be applied to a situation that is caused by supply and demand. A queue line's length is dependent on demand for the attraction at any given moment in the day. Does Disney deny access to the attraction itself for those who are disabled? No. Everyone is admitted as long as they meet the safety guidelines for the specific attraction. All walkways and even custom loading areas and ride vehicles are designed to provide reasonable accommodation for guests with physical disabilities. Having autism is not an excuse because the demand to ride a specific attraction is "more than you can handle." Disney does not decide how long the queue wait time is. It is based on supply and demand of complete strangers all wanting the same product at any given second of the day. Disney already allows every single guest to access its FastPass system which provides every guest access to 3 attractions with a "minimal" wait time. Additional attractions are available after those have expired. FP is already an accommodation to guests with "mental" disabilities and equal and fair treatment to ALL people.

The DAS is Disney going above and beyond to accommodate guests who claim they "cannot wait in lines due to mental disorders." All other guests can sit in a wheelchair, and don't have much of an argument to go off of. The ADA was designed to create more equality for shared experiences between guests with a disability and guests without. The old GAC card was essentially an unlimited FP which in turn provided an unfair advantage to riding attractions for disabled guests. It meant that they did not have to wait the equal amount of time as the guest who was fortunate enough to not have a disability. It's reverse prejudice. The new DAS card allows for equal treatment between guests with a disability and those without.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
But because it involves a Disney park, it is at least going to be heard in court. I don't see parents suing Walmart to have a disability fastpass cashier line.
This argument gets thrown around a lot in these threads, but it is really just a straw man. There is clearly a significant difference between waiting 3 minutes for a cashier in a supermarket and 90 minutes in a hot, stuffy, loud line to ride TSMM or Splash Mountain.
 

BrianV

Well-Known Member
This argument gets thrown around a lot in these threads, but it is really just a straw man. There is clearly a significant difference between waiting 3 minutes for a cashier in a supermarket and 90 minutes in a hot, stuffy, loud line to ride TSMM or Splash Mountain.

But there isn't a difference between waiting 60 minutes in a hot stuffy loud ine for TSMM and waiting 60 minutes in a hot stuffy loud waiting room for dinner at Chillis. Essentially the same issue.

The real straw man is even comparing to waiting in a hot stuffy line. Under the current system, no one who is disabled need wait ever in a hot, stuffy, or loud line. Wait they must, but not under the conditions you've described. There is clearly a significant difference between waiting in a hot stuffy, loud line for 60 minutes and being given a return time and not having to wait in that line.
 

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