Orlando Gunman Scouted WDW ...

[SorcererMC]

A comment was made earlier about Disney and the FBI being "cozy". In other threads there's the idea that Disney employees cheap security just for theater. Which is it? Can I go on the belief that there's more than meets the eye at WDW for security other than those bag checking at the gates?

I'm the one who used the term 'cozy' earlier; it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is a close relationship between FL and Orlando officials and Disney security, and it's also been said by other posters. About a year ago I was trying to investigate it and there is very little public information on it (as it should be). The only thing I know for sure is that Disney has their own intel analysts for security threats (eg terrorism), and based on Disney company statements, there is more that they are doing than bag-checking at gates. (Debatable how effective that may or may not be.....although I don't think it's wise to publicly speculate about specific vulnerabilities in their security, for obvious reasons). I'm watching/waiting to see what more will be done, I want to know what to expect for my next visit.

 

[SorcererMC]

Now there's news that weeks ago the shooter tried to buy 1000 rounds of ammo and body armor at a store. They refused him and contacted the FBI, and it seems like the FBI did nothing.

Heads should roll at the FBI. A guy who's already been investigated twice tries to make a suspicious weapons purchase, and they don't feel the need to check him again?

FBI and local officials have not found any record yet of the gun shop owner's report...the shooter's names wasn't attached to the tip/report, so they are still looking into it.

 

[SorcererMC]

Was he struggling? It's hard to understand right now with all the different stories coming out. He could have just been casing and looking for targets, figuring out his attack strategy.

FBI has said that there were no other targets. (so if he was at/around Disney during Gay Days, they have some reason to think it wasn't for those purposes. We'll probably never know).

Terrorism analyst Shadi Hamid's comments (not exact) on this issue of, would ISIS want or accept the allegiance of homosexuals, on CNN:

re: ISIS, in terms of sexuality, I actually think they wouldn’t have a big problem w/ that, in some sense it might be preferable to have someone who tried to redeem their ‘sinfulness’, ....not pious or not observant before they commit attacks, and try to redeem themselves through martyrdom.

 

[MrHappy]

I'm the one who used the term 'cozy' earlier; it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is a close relationship between FL and Orlando officials and Disney security, and it's also been said by other posters. About a year ago I was trying to investigate it and there is very little public information on it (as it should be). The only thing I know for sure is that Disney has their own intel analysts for security threats (eg terrorism), and based on Disney company statements, there is more that they are doing than bag-checking at gates. (Debatable how effective that may or may not be.....although I don't think it's wise to publicly speculate about specific vulnerabilities in their security, for obvious reasons). I'm watching/waiting to see what more will be done, I want to know what to expect for my next visit.

Thanks for the reply. I agree, lets not speculate. Just my point was that all the debate about the security (or lack thereof, or quality of) at the gates is kinda moot because there is far more advanced security going on and lets leave it at that.

 

[WDW1974]

People are misunderstanding the wording of 'Disney informed the FBI he visited in April'... they mean since the weekend they've checked the records and found he visited in April and have now told the FBI, not that they told the FBI about a random suspicious character a couple of months before the shootings.

Are we sure of this? Because it has not been made clear in the media at all. And it is a very important point/distinction.

 

[The Mom]

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of websites out there where people can argue pro/anti gun control. This isn't one of them. Let's get back to WDW, please.

The same thing I said yesterday.

And the day before yesterday. And after posting this twice already, I really didn't think I would have to go through every page and remove all of the posts so that no one would respond. But I was mistaken.

BTW, if I've missed any on either side of the debate, it wasn't intentional. Just report them and I'll delete them.

 

[WDW1974]

And the day before yesterday. And after posting this twice already, I really didn't think I would have to go through every page and remove all of the posts so that no one would respond. But I was mistaken.

Yeah. Well I haven't been here for days.

 

[flynnibus]

Are we sure of this? Because it has not been made clear in the media at all. And it is a very important point/distinction.

And when has that stopped the media in the mist of a frenzy?

I take this as when they interviewed the wife and others about all the guys activities leading up to this they found him visiting tourist locations like this.. and Disney confirmed.

There isn't anything even released yet to suggest he was intentionally 'scouting' vs simply visiting and having thoughts.

Virtually everything written in the press these days needs to be analyzed for what the actual source material is vs what they are 'translating'

 

[SorcererMC]

ESPN is talking about 'how effective are bag checks' after flares were thrown onto the pitch at the UEFA Croatia soccer game. Their commentator recommended that bags be banned from being brought into the stadium.

I posit that others who have already said Disney is going to do ban bags of a certain size or strollers are likely correct.

ETA: Speculation, I know, but now it just feels like a foregone conclusion b/c standards.

 

[Cesar R M]

FBI and local officials have not found any record yet of the gun shop owner's report...the shooter's names wasn't attached to the tip/report, so they are still looking into it.

Baffling that "reports" go missing that can potentially have information to stop crimes like that.
Kinda reminds me on how the 9/11 report said that the CIA, NSA and FBI were too busy to show "whos top boss" than actually sharing information. They all had pieces of the puzzle that could have stopped the attack. Yet they did nothing much.

 

[SorcererMC]

Baffling that "reports" go missing that can potentially have information to stop crimes like that.
Kinda reminds me on how the 9/11 report said that the CIA, NSA and FBI were too busy to show "whos top boss" than actually sharing information. They all had pieces of the puzzle that could have stopped the attack. Yet they did nothing much.

You've raised two valid issues re: vetting of reports and stovepiping in intelligence collection and analysis. Re: Orlando attack, so many red flags, but there are limits to what can be done. People (eg, above, @bsiev1977) have said that heads should roll at the FBI, but I highly doubt that any individuals will be found personally accountable for what happened b/c of the bureaucratic issues. Investigated? Yes. Disciplined? Maybe. Fired? Probably not, b/c of burden of proof.

 

[WDW1974]

And when has that stopped the media in the mist of a frenzy?

I take this as when they interviewed the wife and others about all the guys activities leading up to this they found him visiting tourist locations like this.. and Disney confirmed.

There isn't anything even released yet to suggest he was intentionally 'scouting' vs simply visiting and having thoughts.

Virtually everything written in the press these days needs to be analyzed for what the actual source material is vs what they are 'translating'

That's why it is important to read multiple sources and understand exactly what is being said. (I think that may be what you just said above.) There are loads of serious questions that haven't been answered to my satisfaction (and that is leaving out the fact he was at Disney multiple times, including just before the attack). I have a nagging feeling that this guy ... nah, not even going there here.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Are we sure of this? Because it has not been made clear in the media at all. And it is a very important point/distinction.

My understanding is that Disney informed the FBI that he had been on site, but only after the Pulse incident - not as a warning.

 

[SorcererMC]

The confusion about what did Disney know and when is from the post linking to an WFTV reporter's twitter feed, and I'm not sure this clarifies whatsoever, but here's the info:

looks like Disney notified the FBI in April about this guy and nothing happened...

https://twitter.com/KRayWFTV/status/742761598822035456

(someone asked) Sentence structure is important. Is 'source' saying Disney notified FBI in April or notified FBI the casing happened in April?
Reporter: casing happened in April, believe FBI was notified at that time.
(someone asked) And why did employees think he was suspicious?
Reporter: based on the types of questions he was asking
Reporter: They visited in April, possibly casing park-- unclear when/if FBI was notified before shooting.

--------------------

I didn't see anything in this article that was clear on it at all, just linking for the sake of reference:
The WFTV article: http://www.wftv.com/news/pulse-shoo...for-knowledge-of-mass-shooting-plan/342763558

Also from the same reporter twitter feed: https://twitter.com/KRayWFTV/status/743159911501205504
Dated June 15, 2016 12:15pm
Reporter: I asked FBI 6+ times when agents were notified about shooter's April trip to Disney- a lot of "I don't have that info" or "I'm not aware"

 

[SorcererMC]

And a quick follow-up for context: The FBI said that he had no other targets, including WDW. The FBI did not provide a counter-narrative as to what the shooter was doing there.

My conjecture: based on the fact that we know this guy had violent tendencies and anger/hatred toward groups of people (especially LGBT), was radicalized for some time, and sought martyrdom....in the context of what is known about terrorist behavior, it's possible that he went there (Disney Springs) as part of a 'cleansing ritual' before carrying out his attack, ie preparing himself for his martyrdom. This is also where his wife's statements become important (b/c maybe he just told her he was going out for the night?), and FBI might not know that yet for certain.

 

[JassiSidhu2000]

Dude with mental issues, from Orlando goes to WDW - media in hysterical over reaction.

Chill out guys.

 

[SorcererMC]

Would we be saying the same thing had he gone to Mcdonalds?

Of course not. WDW is not McDonald's. WDW is a major tourist draw in the state of FL; tourism is the number one sector of its economy (23% of state GDP). Orlando has 66 million visitors a year (I said 70 mln earlier, correcting that here). Therefore, Orlando and FL state officials, as well as the Disney Company, have to address its safety and security - both the physical security of visitors and the perception of security. It is my belief that both guests and CMs/employees have a right to the rational expectation of security at WDW.

The vast majority of people are going to return to the status quo, and go on about their lives. My motivation for posting in this thread is to speak to those who may be grappling with these issues for the first time, I've spent years doing so myself and am comfortable talking about what is an otherwise abhorrent subject, and taboo. Admittedly, this case pushes all of my buttons, but I'm trying to provide information grounded in fact and what is known, in the hopes that it contributes to recovery and understanding, b/c as soon as people cope emotionally, they will want answers intellectually, they will want to know why.

 

[SorcererMC]

Not starting another thread on this issue b/c the relevant issues were raised here and mods have repeatedly stated this isn't the place for gun control debate (perhaps you haven't been following along). I'm content to let this thread fizzle out or fade into the sunset or be closed.

I am neither nervous nor melodramatic. Thanks for your concern.

 

[SorcererMC]

And the day before yesterday. And after posting this twice already, I really didn't think I would have to go through every page and remove all of the posts so that no one would respond. But I was mistaken.

BTW, if I've missed any on either side of the debate, it wasn't intentional. Just report them and I'll delete them.

@TheMom I don't know if this thread can remain open without the gun control debate coming up, and there's not much discussion happening here. Do you want to close it? (I'm not sure how that works on these forums so putting this msg). And putting it @WDW1974 since he started the thread.

 

[The Mom]

It can be closed for now, and reopened (or a new thread started) if any further information becomes available.