Orlando Becoming East Coast Headquarters for Disney Parks, Experiences, and Products

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Wegmans is from up north, and their expansion into the mid-atlantic has been flawless (IMO as a consumer), so I'd guess it's more of a question of if they can scale. I've just never seen anything stand-out about publix... not that it's bad, its just not anything I'd seek them out for.

Safeway for bagels and donuts. Wegmans for breads and pretzel bites.

What makes Wegmans such a crazy thing is they crush the local competition on prices while still offering a very high end experience and variety.

We have plenty of people around us cashing in on the housing explosion right now to sell and move to cheaper places like FL. Houses are selling 20-30% higher in the last few months alone with ravage speed.. so people are like 'why not' and punching out while the going is good. The recent boost in house value alone can almost pay for the house in FL.

The subs at Publix are very good -- leaps and bounds better than what you could get for a similar price elsewhere. They also used to have excellent fried chicken and sides, as we discussed earlier. It can still be delicious if you get it at the right time, but it's no longer consistently great. They do an excellent job in general with deli, hot foods, bakery, etc.; it's of a higher quality than what you can get at most of their southeastern competitors. They also tend to be cleaner and better organized than those competitors.

Scaling is my concern with Wegmans. I mentioned the Fresh Market upthread -- it's not really a supermarket (it's smaller/more specialized), but it is a food market. They've expanded tremendously over the past 10-15 years and it's not remotely the same store it was 25+ years ago when it was local to my area (we used to shop at the original location). Back then, everything they sold (meats, seafood, baked goods, etc.) was better than you could get anywhere else. It was uniformly high quality in all areas. While it's certainly not bad now and still has quality goods, it's not at the same level.
 
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fgmnt

Well-Known Member
Funny, that’s how I feel about all the CA haters in this thread whose only experience with CA Is listening to pundits on cable television.

There’s room to expand in FL. There isn’t in CA urban centers and NYC. But growth isn’t the only metric. Unchecked growth is big trouble.

I do look forward to NY and CA transplants bringing their attitudes to FL. That’s going to be fun to watch.


There definitely is room to more densely populate LA, SF, and NYC. I don't actually think this is the exact right thread to talk about the various zoning policies that have lead to a developing of a housing crisis over the last 20 years...

...but it is kind of related to what Disney is doing here, and how state/municipal governments are all grinding up against each other in a way that makes things worse for everyone.

Modern Los Angeles being build around the automobile is why it's always catching on fire. Modern Central Florida being built around the automobile is literally going to sink the state!


But, c'est la vie. Tax breaks lead to greater shareholder wealth, and before it al burns down, we still have this beautiful moment in time where we can create this wealth for them. Ain't it grant?
 

MorphinePrince

Well-Known Member
Your point is? Those are some gorgeous beaches, and thanks for including the Angeles National Forest as well as multiple state and city parks. And our air is cleaner than its has been in decades, thanks to regulations.

My point is some of y’all are so eager for the same sprawl, but without the regulations and restrictions. Seriously, enjoy! 😘
Everything you post about California just makes it looks more and more trashy. Idk what you guys are smoking out there but I want some of it because it must be amazingly good 🤣
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
My point is that I don’t think there is a more poorly designed metropolitan area in the US than the Los Angeles metropolitan area. Between the traffic, pollution, vast stretches of single use, low-density zoning regulations, and the prevalence of spacial mismatching, it is the poster child of bad urban planning. I find it odd that you would overlook the reality of the present situation in favor of the supposed effectiveness of regulations, and specifically California’s regulations, which are often detrimental to good urban planning and instead serve to inflate housing prices, to the benefit of existing homeowners and the expense of potential Californians.

It's funny, because while you're right that the sprawling LA metro area has terrible urban planning... I think that's also what makes LA the most interesting city in the US. It's easily my favorite city to visit here, surpassing even NYC by a relatively comfortable margin. Nowhere else is even remotely close in terms of interesting architecture, and I think that's largely a result of that poor urban planning/low density zoning. A lot of the really great old Art Deco, Streamline Moderne, Googie, etc. buildings would likely have been demolished by now and LA would be much closer to other huge North American cities like NYC, Chicago, and Toronto (Mexico City is its own thing). It's not that they don't have interesting architecture (they do), but LA is unique in a way they aren't.
 

Stripes

Well-Known Member
It's funny, because while you're right that the sprawling LA metro area has terrible urban planning... I think that's also what makes LA the most interesting city in the US. It's easily my favorite city to visit here, surpassing even NYC by a relatively comfortable margin. Nowhere else is even remotely close in terms of interesting architecture, and I think that's largely a result of that poor urban planning/low density zoning. A lot of the really great old Art Deco, Streamline Moderne, Googie, etc. buildings would likely have been demolished by now and LA would be much closer to other huge North American cities like NYC, Chicago, and Toronto (Mexico City is its own thing). It's not that they don't have interesting architecture (they do), but LA is unique in a way they aren't.
I understand your perspective and can sympathize somewhat, though I don’t share it. To be frank, I despise LA 😂

Though it is certainly an interesting city. For me it’s like a train wreck you can’t take your eyes off of. Driving down I-5 in LA with me is certainly an experience. The only reason I go is for Disneyland, which is like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell 😉
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Also, an aside about the affordability issue -- I live in Atlanta, and while Atlanta certainly isn't on the same level as places like LA, NYC, San Francisco, etc. it's far more expensive than Orlando. They are throwing up high rise luxury apartments and condos left and right in Midtown, and I can't figure out who is going to live in them. They're much too expensive for the vast majority of people ($1500-2000+ just for a studio apartment, or $500k at the minimum for a 1 BD/BR condo, with 2 BD/2BR well over a million and sometimes $2+ million), and anyone that has that much money and a family can afford to live somewhere that gives them more space. They seem to have a very small potential customer base of people who are either single or married without children but also make 6 figures a year.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I understand your perspective and can sympathize somewhat, though I don’t share it. To be frank, I despise LA 😂

Though it is certainly an interesting city. For me it’s like a train wreck you can’t take your eyes off of. Driving down I-5 in LA with me is certainly an experience. The only reason I go is for Disneyland, which is like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell 😉

I just love the buildings there. There's so much that you won't see anywhere else in the world, much less in the US. Even random houses and apartment buildings you walk/drive by are so different from what you see in most of the rest of the US and often have really interesting architecture. NYC (or at least Manhattan) feels homogenous in comparison; like you're walking by the same building over and over again (even though that's not remotely true). As I mentioned above, NYC is much closer to Toronto, Chicago, etc. in terms of similarity than LA is to anything.

With that said, it's my favorite city to visit (in the US -- there are plenty of European cities I like more). I would never, ever want to live in Los Angeles.
 

WannaGoNow

Active Member
California doesn’t have a population crisis. Its population is relatively stable due to international immigration and natural population increase (births minus deaths) effectively cancelling out the loss in population due to net domestic migration.
And international immigration would be higher if not for the past 4+ years.
For some companies, having most or all of their presence in California is costing them valuable employees because their employees and potential employees can’t afford to raise a family in the state. The Bay Area is so intolerable that the highly paid employees at Apple corporate are struggling.
I know this intimately to be false about Apple and its "struggling" employees.

Apple is hiring in other cities but that's because they're out of room in Silicon Valley, even with the spaceship now open.
Fundamentally, a crisis of affordability within cities in the state is terrible for productivity. The most productive areas of any state are its cities. And if people can’t afford to live in them, that’s a problem. The crisis of affordability is fixable. However, this is a crisis decades in the making and it will take decades to fix it.
Pretty sure I said the housing market in metro areas and the coast is crazy ridiculous. But considering the most expensive market in the country - San Francisco and the Peninsula - is also the most productive metro area in the country per the Brookings Institute and Milken Institute: 🤔.

However, please, share how to fix it.
My point is that I don’t think there is a more poorly designed metropolitan area in the US than the Los Angeles metropolitan area. Between the traffic, pollution, vast stretches of single use, low-density zoning regulations, and the prevalence of spacial mismatching, it is the poster child of bad urban planning. I find it odd that you would overlook the reality of the present situation in favor of the supposed effectiveness of regulations, and specifically California’s regulations, which are often detrimental to good urban planning and instead serve to inflate housing prices, to the benefit of existing homeowners and the expense of potential Californians.
I never said Los Angeles was a model of urban planning. I said that's what unchecked growth gets you. I remember the air in LA before gasoline emission standards went into effect. It was awful.

It's interesting you think caring about sustainability, density, clean air, preserving natural spaces and species, and the water supply is a detriment to citizens.

Also, are you familiar with the history of urban planning in Florida or how much ideas about urban planning have progressed since most of Los Angeles was constructed? Or that most urban planning regulations are handled at the local level? Or that basically every city in the U.S. has fairly comprehensive land use regulations?
But you say regulations are bad. 🤔 Yes, condos on the Florida's Atlantic side demonstrate how rigorously Florida communities take codes and planning.

You realize Disney sold Celebration to a hedge fund in 2004, right?

As a former Californian (left in 2017)

Oooooh, now I understand your posts! Congrats on moving somewhere more your speed. :p

And yes, affordability and urban planning and local/state/federal government (47% of CA is owned by the federal government, including many of the areas that have seen brush fires recently) and NIMBYism and many other issues are problems in LA and SF - and SD and Silicon Valley. Even Fresno is being hit by high housing prices right now. I'm mostly being flippant. This is a discussion that a WDW message board is perhaps not the most nuanced place to have. In fact, it's not a discusssion I would seriously have with internet randos on any message board. Especially when most of the talking points are cribbed directly from cable network pundits. 🤷‍♀️
 
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Lilofan

Well-Known Member
Oh good god no, it's 1000x better than Food Lion. It's one of the better supermarket chains in the country, although it's not quite what it once was. Wegmans is the only one I've been to that I'd say is clearly better than Publix, but as I said upthread, I'm curious to see if Wegmans can maintain that high quality as they expand and add stores. Most chains have not been able to do so.
Food Lion is towards the bottom but then again one hasn't reached bottom unless one has shopped at the Piggly Wiggly ( located in very poor towns and select cities). The food chain is even mentioned in the movie Sweet Home Alabama. Locations mostly in the Deep South and parts of FL but I doubt CA transplants would see one ever built near Lake Nona.
 
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WannaGoNow

Active Member
I’m sure you are intimately familiar with Apple’s executive meetings. How can they be out of room with $200 billion in cash?
Land is a finite resouce? (It's only $69.834B cash on hand as of the last quarter.)
Understand the problem.
I skimmed so admittedly I might have missed something, but it appears their hypothesis is that land in San Diego (coastal city, amazing weather), once controlled for various factors, should be fungible with land in Cleveland (not a coastal city, not the same weather) and "government regulation is responsible for high housing costs where they exist."

Pretty sure there are other, stronger reasons why a house in San Diego may cost most than a house in Cleveland... and it appears they only controlled for January temperature, not any of the other variables that go into desirability.

So, yeah, no, not so much sold on the hypothesis. But thanks for the link!
I thought you were singing the praises of California’s land use regulatory structure.

I was speaking more of people's cheering for "business friendly" areas, which to me is code for "go ahead, do whatever you like as long as you hand over the money." Apologies for being unclear.
Yes. And?
Just saying this planned community didn't seem to be a success for its original owners. Or the residents, judging by headlines such as "How Disney's 'Community of Tomorrow' Became a Total Nightmare."
 

SoFloMagic

Well-Known Member
I'm sure individual store management is a big part of it, but it just feels like there used to be more corporate oversight/mandates regarding it. I have no idea if that's true, but it's only been in the past 2-3 years that it's become an issue and it's been at multiple Publix locations instead of just one. It's really bad/disappointing when you get chicken tenders from the hot area and they've either been sitting there for several hours or were reheated leftovers from yesterday.

I also have a friend who lives in Port St. Lucie who said he's noticed a big decline in Publix overall the past few years -- that he used to be able to count on every location having spotless bathrooms while on road trips and other stuff like that and it's just no longer the case.
Yeah, it's not just chicken. They're unrecognizable from the publix of 10 years ago. I think the publix love is now just pure nostalgia.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's not just chicken. They're unrecognizable from the publix of 10 years ago. I think the publix love is now just pure nostalgia.
Publix of 10 years ago that one with less product selection ? No thanks. One can thank the many Northerners moving to FL every year requesting more of the products they would like to see. Publix listened to them and that is a good thing.
 

ctrlaltdel

Well-Known Member
Wegmans is from up north, and their expansion into the mid-atlantic has been flawless (IMO as a consumer), so I'd guess it's more of a question of if they can scale. I've just never seen anything stand-out about publix... not that it's bad, its just not anything I'd seek them out for.

Safeway for bagels and donuts. Wegmans for breads and pretzel bites.

What makes Wegmans such a crazy thing is they crush the local competition on prices while still offering a very high end experience and variety.

We have plenty of people around us cashing in on the housing explosion right now to sell and move to cheaper places like FL. Houses are selling 20-30% higher in the last few months alone with ravage speed.. so people are like 'why not' and punching out while the going is good. The recent boost in house value alone can almost pay for the house in FL.
And they pay their workers extremely well on top of all that. Living in WNY, Wegmans is king. My small city has one and it's awesome. People come from an hour+ away,
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Also, the video mostly details New Urbanism, a city planning concept that has a lot of history in Florida.
While New Urbanism originated in Florida its ideas have not been widely adopted in the state. It’s mostly been relegated to developments instead of a large scale philosophy of planning and has become a luxury typology of the very sort of sprawl it was supposed to be reacting against. The people who live in the New Urbanist developments largely don’t work there and the businesses there are overwhelmingly service oriented so their employees generally cannot afford to live where they work. The developments are so large that only those in the center can walk to the businesses while the rest are driving. Any grid organization is usually isolated with a few points of access, not part of a larger regional network. If anything, it’s biggest influence on Florida is the overbearing homeowners associations that control so many developments but without any of the philosophical justification.
 
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ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
While New Urbanism originated in Florida its ideas have not been widely adopted in the state. It’s mostly been relegated to developments instead of a large scale philosophy of planning and has become a luxury typology of the very sort of sprawl it was supposed to be reacting against. The people who live in the New Urbanist developments largely don’t live there and the businesses there are overwhelmingly service oriented so their employees generally cannot afford to live where they work. The developments are so large that only those in the center can walk to the businesses while the rest are driving. Any grid organization is usually isolated with a few points of access, not part of a larger regional network. If anything, it’s biggest influence on Florida is the overbearing homeowners associations that control so many developments but without any of the philosophical justification.
That sounds very much like a "luxury" development they built in our town. Exorbitantly priced houses (yes, they're nice, but the prices aren't justified as they're 70+ miles from the city and even far removed from our own town's downtown/historic/beach areas by a good 20-30-minute drive, and they're also rather cookie-cutter McMansion-type houses) in a huge, sprawling development with a handful of shops in a semi-central location that only a select few are actually close to. You can't "walk" the development at all...you have to drive it, and yes, there are relatively few roads that actually enter the development, so you have to take multiple turns, etc. to get to houses that happen to be on the side far from the entrances. They DO have their own golf course...so I suppose that's a plus for half of the year when it's nice out?
 

scottb411

Well-Known Member
Hmm…

Sounds like with more residents, you’re getting voters who approve of higher taxes to pay for the services the newer residents demand…

🤔

I would disagree as this passed in 2002 with Jeb Bush as our Governor and Florida continues to vote mostly Republican even since then:


Many of these same conservative voters that voted for this amendment shake their head at what is going on in California right now but place a strong value on public education past what Florida politicians have traditionally valued and this is why it needed to pass as an amendment. I don't want to make this post political but Desantis has broken off from a majority of other Republicans in Florida in supporting public education and teachers as he understands this dynamic with Republican voters in the state:


In the Presidential election, Orange County voted for Biden over Trump 61% to 38%.
 
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Ayla

Well-Known Member
Especially with the extreme difference in cost of living, 63% according to the online calculator I used.

A $100k salary in Orlando provides an upper middle class lifestyle and the ability to raise a family and buy a nice family home with a yard, $100k in LA is borderline poverty with no chance of buying even a modest home without multiple incomes (whether family or roommates).

In two more similar cities it may not be as big a factor but the equivalent of a massive raise will sway a lot of employees.

My brother works for AAA and they moved his department (several hundred claims adjusters) from San Francisco to Las Vegas over a decade ago, they offered to cover 100% of their moving expenses but the transfer came with a 20% pay cut, he crunched all the numbers and came to the conclusion that even with the lower salary it would still be close to a 50% pay raise due to the difference in cost of living, about 2/3 of his department took the offer. He’s still with the company and has been in his own home for nearly a decade, something he’d never have been able to afford in San Francisco.

The financial pros of living in Orlando over LA will be hard to ignore.
The cost of living may be lower, but I'd hope the employees refuse to take a pay cut to move to Orlando. I know we would. We wouldn't uproot our entire lives for less money.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Oh for sure. Many love California. I get it. It’s their home and they don’t want to leave.
but I do think some people are intent on ignoring their issues. That’s my opinion of course.

California's biggest issue is simple: too many people want to live here.

Further, people from California are not anomalous human beings. There's nothing in the water here making them think of act differently. If you put enough people in Florida, whether from California or elsewhere even, those same issues you think are plaguing California will come to Florida. There will be road traffic and overcrowding in schools and the corresponding increases in taxes to compensate for it.

The only thing unique to California is that, people have wanted to live here for a lot longer than they have been living in Florida, and California is just a little further down the timeline than everywhere else.
 

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