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Original Scale of Pirates?
- Thread starter wdwfan94
- Start date
cheezbat
Well-Known Member
I don't know how you get that feeling...aside from maybe being in the dark. I LOVE the Pirates out in Anaheim...and the drops are WAY more fun in my opinion. I love going through the Bayou, and then seeing all of the skeletons and whatnot. LOVE it! I feel so cheated whenever I ride WDW's Pirates.
Thrill
Well-Known Member
It's an Internet myth that the Disneyland version is some epic masterpiece compared to ours.
When I first experienced it last year (and I rode it at least 20 times in a week) I was expecting some "OMG! WOW!" moments, but I didn't have them.
First, our ride is grander in scale. Like most Disneyland rides, their Pirates is much more "intimate" - everything is a bit smaller, closer together. You notice it a lot on rides like POTC and HM because you are much closer to the AA's and set pieces in many instances. Sometimes that's cool, but in the case of Pirates, it just feels kind of cramped to be honest; it's more like you are in a ride building than actually out on the open seas, as you can feel in the WDW ride, specifically at the ship/fort section after the drop. (In the HM - which is close to identical to ours in many respects inside, it actually reduced the illusion - specifically in the Graveyard and the Hitchhiking Ghosts portion).
Second, most of the ride length difference is attributed to the beginning where you float through the bayou (with lovely views of people in shorts and T-shirts eating in the restaurant - my how well that goes with the theming, LOL) and a very large extension of the caves where there is nothing but empty caverns. Cool, yes, but no "show". It's simply to get you out of the park and to the show building.
While the build-up is a little fun and necessary due to the inexplicable facade (I still don't get the relevance - apparently New Orleans was known for Pirates? I think of Pirates on the high seas, not in the French Quarter, LOL), it really doesn't add much to the ride. Our show building and queue is far, far more appropriate - imagine, going on a Pirate adventure by going through a Pirate bunker and then into the underground caves. Not some fancy looking 1800's pristine white building.
Most of the show scenes, except being smaller, are the same, with the exception of they have a treasure room near the beginning of the ride instead of at the end. It's a neat little thing (though kind of hokey - while the one skeleton driving the beat up ship before the drop in the MK version is neat, when you have skeletons drinking beer and stuff it's kind of silly to be honest).
That's really the biggest difference. The rest of the additional ride time is taken up by the Bayou (which is neat, but seeing the people eating in the restaurant kind of ruins it), extra-long empty caverns, the small treasure room at the beginning, and at the end you get paraded around a little wheel where you awkwardly are returned to the "big fancy white building" and go through part of the queue looking at the people in line before you are dumped back into the dark Bayou to unload at the same place you load to begin with (I found this rather strange feeling, everyone just stares at you in the queue because you are so close - LOL or maybe that was just because I'm funny looking LOL).
To be honest, it feels like a "Directors Cut" of a movie - which often has a few extra bits that are neat, a few extra bits that slow everything down but don't really add anything to the story/experience. In ours, people say it's "abrupt" how you enter into the action so quickly, whereas I find it more exhilarating and action-like.
All that said, it is not a bad ride. At all. It's amazing, just like ours. But my whole life I've been told that it's some amazing step-up from the WDW version, and it's really not. It's slightly different, but we have a far more appropriate queue that does not require the Bayou theme, ours feels more "epic" in scope (it may be shorter, but it's grander), and to be honest by the 6th or 7th ride I just got bored in the seeminly endless, empty caves that make up most of the additional ride time.
That's just my take on it, though. Others feel differently. But comparing it bit by bit, scene by scene, I don't think either one is overall "better", except for our queue which makes a lot more sense and sets the mood far better, IMO (we don't need a slow introduction, because we get that while walking through the queue).
Mostly agreed. I prefer Disneyland's version, but I don't really think that it's safe to say that WDW's version is a horrible attraction in comparison. The queue is far better in Florida, and there's less of a theming issue (New Orleans and Pirates? What?). Honestly, even though Disneyland's ride is about twice as long, it doesn't feel like it. It does feel longer, but only by a few minutes. Like you said, most of that is empty caverns, though there are a few nice scenes that are missing in Florida. Add in the time for the queue at WDW and WDW's Pirates is closer to the length of Disneyland's.
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
I hate to keep jumping in on the same issue, but this is NOT a failing of DL theming, folks. New Orleans has deep historical ties to piracy. Jean Lafitte built a warehouse in the city to smuggle goods stolen from ships in the Gulf of Mexico in the early 19th century, just as one example. Even if you personally prefer the Adventureland setting, the New Orleans connection is completely legitimate.
Mickey_777
Well-Known Member
DLP's Pirates is much longer and has more than one drop along with some really cool effects. WDW's felt rather lame after DLP
Is the audio on Pirated in DLP really "in French"?
Also, I do think DL's Pirates is better but not by a landslide like most people think/rumor...
ght
Well-Known Member
I know this is sort of a weird place for my first post, I normally just lurk on these boards for info but I have seen this posted on other places and wanted to clear it up. The drop at WDW isn't 14 ft long, it is 14 ft high. At DL the first drop is 18ft high and the second is 13ft high. I think this confusion comes from the Wikipedia entry that used to have the stats for both rides but had on (DL) in length and the other in hight.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Ah! Thank you so much for clearing that up for us!
So the stats for both rides should look like this then:
Disneyland Pirates
Drop 1 - 18 Feet High
Drop 2 - 13 Feet High
WDW Pirates
Drop 1 - 14 Feet High
But my stomach tells me that the angle of descent is not as steep on the WDW version's single drop. There's just very little G forces experienced there, compared to Disneyland where you get a legit thrill, particularly on the first drop in the pitch dark. Drop two at Disneyland is out in the open, in caverns that are lit up and you see exactly where you are going.
Disneyland Pirates of the Caribbean - Bottom of Drop Two
What I think is most telling is the size and length of the lifts at the end of the rides. There have been pictures online before of both lifts at the Pirate rides in California and Florida. But I can't find any right now from a quick Google search.
MotherOfBirds
Well-Known Member
I want to know why WDW's isn't as long as everyone else's. The excuse we got at DLP was that crowds were much smaller. I could not know what I'm talking about, but I would think that the longer a ride you have, the more vehicles you can cram in there, the more bodies you can get in there (instead of them standing in line.) This of course is not factoring in the cost to build that extra bit of ride, I realize.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Hmm. That's a very broad over-simplification of the reality of both Disneyland rides.
Check out the track maps at this fun website, and you can see that there was plenty of opportunity to make the trip through the Disneyland caverns after the second drop much, much shorter if Walt had really wanted it that way. They built in twists and turns where a differently aligned second drop and a fast straight shot into the Battle Scene could have been easily achieved. If Walt had wanted to, of course, and if he wanted to cut 4 or 5 minutes out of the ride.
Disneyland and WDW ride track layouts and maps. Cool!http://www.scottware.com.au/theme/feature/layoutmaps.htm
RonAnnArbor
Well-Known Member
It was pretty simple -- it was rushed into existence, and it was made to fit into a building that was originally designed for a different ride, with different vehicles, in a different layout.
They also had to work with the water table which is just below the surface. ANyone who has ridden the DLP pirates knows what Disney can do when they have unlimited budget, and plenty of space to play with. None of the other pirates compare to the Paris version. And it has nothing to do with the size of the crowds. It has a substantial (and very heavily themed) lift hill, and two major drops including splashes at the bottom of both.
You can ride the Pirates at DLP here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRqNtIPSXFc&hd=1
They also had to work with the water table which is just below the surface. ANyone who has ridden the DLP pirates knows what Disney can do when they have unlimited budget, and plenty of space to play with. None of the other pirates compare to the Paris version. And it has nothing to do with the size of the crowds. It has a substantial (and very heavily themed) lift hill, and two major drops including splashes at the bottom of both.
You can ride the Pirates at DLP here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRqNtIPSXFc&hd=1
wolf359
Well-Known Member
Cool site! Thanks for sharing!
Broad oversimplification is my specialty!
My point wasn't so much that Disneyland couldn't have been shorter, as much as WDW's didn't need to overcome the same problems to get to the show building. I'm sure they thought when designing DL they might as well fill up both buildings, not just the one outside the berm, hence the longer ride through caverns.
I'm curious ( or at least confused )
What was originally intended to go in Pirates' location in WDW?
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
*whispers the name so as to infuse it with the properly due reverence*
Western River Expedition.
Seriously, if you've never heard of it, it was quite a concept. Jim Hill has a very lengthy and detailed description of the idea's inception, initial planning and ultimate withering on the vine on his site. It's very much worth a read.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
I don't get that anti-New Orleans Square argument either. It's a brilliant setting for both the pirate ride and the restaurant. New Orleans Square is widely thought of as one of the most elaborately themed and charmingly Imagineered areas of an Disney theme park, ever.
As it should be, since it was created by Walt Disney and his hand-picked team of top Imagineers in the mid 1960's when Walt, Imagineering and Disneyland itself were all at the very top of their game and all had access to large amounts of capital due to the financial success of DisCo in the mid 60's. It never got any better than New Orleans Square and Pirates of the Caribbean for Walt, and since he showed off the project on national television and wherever he got the chance, it's clear that Walt was spectacularly proud of the New Orleans Square area.
Walt with model of New Orleans Square - 1965
That DisCo then copied New Orleans Square 15 years later when they had the chance to build a big-budget remake from the ground up for Tokyo Disneyland also tells me quite a few folks in Imagineering have absolutely no problem with the olde-fashioned New Orleans setting for their signature E Ticket Pirates ride. :lol:
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
As it should. The fact that New Orleans Square can have its own wonderfully detailed "surface level" story for those just passing through, as well as host two of Disney's most iconic rides in Pirates and HM — both of which are very different from each other as well as from the surrounding land itself, narratively speaking — and still have it all make perfect sense from a theming and cohesion standpoint is amazing. I really, really love NOS. :lol:
SeaCastle
Well-Known Member
One of the cool things about WDW's Pirates is that it got its own sub-land, Caribbean Plaza. In a few ways, it can even be considered its own land and is an area worthy of having Pirates of the Caribbean. Imagineers had a very limited budget (and limited time) to work PotC into Florida, but what they've come up with is beautiful.
The Passport2Dreams blog has some truly great stuff about Caribbean Plaza. Here's a graphic the blog owner made to demonstrate some of the thematic details of the land:
The designers also scattered fountains throughout the area. They've been dry for the past decade, but were a sight to behold. The area has mood and a perpetual sense of twilight. Even better, it's uniquely WDW, an idiosyncrasy that has carried through the years. It's not New Orleans Square (for tons of reasons) and most Disneylanders will probably disown me for calling Caribbean Plaza comparable, but honestly I like Caribbean Plaza better than I do New Orleans Square, but that's just me.
The Passport2Dreams blog has some truly great stuff about Caribbean Plaza. Here's a graphic the blog owner made to demonstrate some of the thematic details of the land:
The designers also scattered fountains throughout the area. They've been dry for the past decade, but were a sight to behold. The area has mood and a perpetual sense of twilight. Even better, it's uniquely WDW, an idiosyncrasy that has carried through the years. It's not New Orleans Square (for tons of reasons) and most Disneylanders will probably disown me for calling Caribbean Plaza comparable, but honestly I like Caribbean Plaza better than I do New Orleans Square, but that's just me.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Cool site! Thanks for sharing!
Broad oversimplification is my specialty!
My point wasn't so much that Disneyland couldn't have been shorter, as much as WDW's didn't need to overcome the same problems to get to the show building. I'm sure they thought when designing DL they might as well fill up both buildings, not just the one outside the berm, hence the longer ride through caverns.
Understood, as broad oversimplification is also a strong point of mine as well.
As I understand it, the first big show building at Disneyland that has the spaghetti bowl of boat track wound around on three separate levels was dug in the early 1960's when Pirates was still going to be a walk-through wax museum. They put the project on hold for the World's Fair, and by the time they came back to it in late '64 it had morphed into a much bigger animatronic boat ride. They'd already dug this deep foundation into the rocky Anaheim earth, so they kept it and used all of it for the opening and closing acts of the show.
Here's a picture of the New Orleans area with pirates wax museum in the basement under construction in 1962. It's the big hole in the ground with some steel framing around it at the top of this picture. The Haunted Mansion is also under construction on the right side of the picture, also when it was still planned to be a walk-through tour attraction led by a maid or butler.
Shortly after this photo was taken the whole thing was put on hold, and the big hole in the ground just stayed there untouched from 1963 until 1965. I could just imagine the frenzy of fanboy website complaints a stunt like that would create in 2010! Good thing they didn't have the Internet back in '63.
And I just found this neat schematic online, and it shows quite clearly how the first building inside the berm has three levels of boats winding around on top of each other, with two waterfalls and one long lift plus an indoor lagoon with restaurant and caverns below. The Disneyland Railroad traveling along the berm separates the two buildings. Haunted Mansion is directly to the left, and the boxy corridor under the train tracks to the right of Pirates is the buried queue taking guests out to the Indiana Jones show building.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2232196624_22c5e4ede7_o.gif
The second building at the bottom of the schematic is the second show building beyond the berm, and that's where all the big animatronic show scenes play out for the bulk of the ride. It's a rather simple out-and-back loop for the big animatronic part of the show. But that first building inside the berm left over from the wax museum phase is truly a marvel of engineering. You can also see how they could have cut out some of the winding track through the caverns, if Walt had wanted them to.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
But if the guys at WED never really considered all of that to be part of the real show, it is clear why they left it out and opted to use the queue to achieve the same effect.
Western River Expedition was planned for Frontierland, where Big Thunder Mountain Railroad now sits. I want to know where RonAnnArbor heard that Pirates of the Caribbean utilized an existing (already designing?) structure, as that is something not mentioned anywhere else.
RonAnnArbor
Well-Known Member
The physical location of the building made no difference -- it was already designed and parts prefabbed...WDW wasn't about to create an all-new structure when they had already spent the money on the materials for a different design.
For people who want a real behind the scenes look at Disney, cutting corners, wasted money, etc, read books like "Realityland" rather than the stuff Disney Imagineers tell you. It's based on actual news articles, union grievances, shipping orders, etc.
The ONLY reason they even put in Pirates was because visitors complained that the Magic Kingdom didn't have the ride -- Walt spent so much money and time promoting Pirates at Disneyland, that visitors to MK assumed it would be there, and complained (loudly) when it was not. It was rushed into existence as fast as they could move their hineys to get it finished using scraps of stuff they already possessed in may instances.
For people who want a real behind the scenes look at Disney, cutting corners, wasted money, etc, read books like "Realityland" rather than the stuff Disney Imagineers tell you. It's based on actual news articles, union grievances, shipping orders, etc.
The ONLY reason they even put in Pirates was because visitors complained that the Magic Kingdom didn't have the ride -- Walt spent so much money and time promoting Pirates at Disneyland, that visitors to MK assumed it would be there, and complained (loudly) when it was not. It was rushed into existence as fast as they could move their hineys to get it finished using scraps of stuff they already possessed in may instances.