Oh no, say it ain't so, Joe..

[HongKongFooy]

I don’t care how authentic the paint jobs are on the buildings, or how many imported knick-knacks are in a queue, if it takes an eternity to walk from one ride/exhibit to another.

Better to stop and smell the foliage along the paths.......or the yeti dropping more.

Exploration is fun.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Add Sunset and the TOT and Maroon Studios, and that would’ve been a heck of a park in the ‘90s. Sigh. What could’ve been...

Sigh indeed. It’s depressing to think what could have been. At least we still have the tower... I think we were pretty close to having marvel land at the end of sunset.

 

[UNCgolf]

EPCOT's exploration includes conservation and marine life research. Expanding on these topics to include more about man's relationship with nature would not have been out of line with the park's themes or attractions like Symbiosis.

Specific attractions, like Everest, Kali River Rapids or the animal trails, could have also been added to WS without undermining the park and gave more variety to the attraction line up.

And things like Beastly Kingdome and Countdown to Extinction could have been built for MK. Certainly BK would have been better than the New Fantasyland we ended up with. MK already had a Lion King show when AK opened (though not as good) and Finding Nemo could have been put in DHS.

They could not have put any animal trails in the World Showcase (or anywhere else in the park) unless they eliminated all night time fireworks shows. There's also no way they could have done them justice there.

I think it's a stretch to argue that most of Animal Kingdom would have fit nicely into EPCOT. Although the Land and the Seas do touch on some similar themes as Animal Kingdom, they're still not really the same thing. The Land isn't about animals at all, and although the Seas certainly features animals, it wasn't really supposed to be about animals either.

I do agree that Expedition Everest and/or Kali could have gone into EPCOT as part of a new pavilion, though.

 

[UNCgolf]

DAK is one of the worst-planned parks in the Disney portfolio. The walkways and attraction locations don’t make any sense for crowd control. I respect Rohde and know he’s talented, but we have to be honest that DAK has some decisions based on ego rather than operational reality.

I don’t care how authentic the paint jobs are on the buildings, or how many imported knick-knacks are in a queue, if it takes an eternity to walk from one ride/exhibit to another.

That's all subjective, though. As I said above, Animal Kingdom feels like the best designed park to me (outside of original EPCOT) because it never feels too crowded and there's occasionally a sense of isolation that you never get at the other parks. I would prefer more parks designed like AK, although I do understand the operational issue you mentioned. That actually may be why I like it so much, though -- it feels more natural and less engineered.

 

[tirian]

That's all subjective, though. As I said above, Animal Kingdom feels like the best designed park to me (outside of original EPCOT) because it never feels too crowded and there's occasionally a sense of isolation that you never get at the other parks. I would prefer more parks designed like AK, although I do understand the operational issue you mentioned. That actually may be why I like it so much, though -- it feels more natural and less engineered.

It’s definitely subjective; I was considering crowd control and ops.

Either way, Rohde is one of the last WDI Greats.

 

[UNCgolf]

It’s definitely subjective; I was considering crowd control and ops.

Either way, Rohde is one of the last WDI Greats.

Yeah, from an ops standpoint, I can't imagine Disney ever building anything else remotely like it. But that's part of the charm of the park for me.

 

[Marc Davis Fan]

The walkways and attraction locations don’t make any sense for crowd control.

In general, I really like DAK's layout, and find that it adds to the sense of immersion for me.

However, there are some things that just don't make sense. The most glaring example is the placement of Dinosaur. Why is one of the park's big e-tickets practically hidden? A lot of visitors never even find out that it exists. Totally nonsensical.

On another note, as a reminder to everyone regarding Dino-Rama: Rohde and his team were forced by the Eisner/Pressler administration to add a certain amount of ride capacity with a tiny budget. I suspect that few people like that decision less than Rohde.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Amazing post that goes back to a conversation I had years ago with Ira West, one of the most legendary park designer in the industry. Ira West was part of Randall Duell design firm and he helped design throughout his career Magic Mountain, Kings Island, the Marriott's Great America parks, Parc Asterix, Samsung's Everland (their 8 million guests a year theme park in South Korea), Hersheypark transformation to a gated park, etc.

I met him at an industry event where Joe Rohde was receiving an award for Aulani and where he did a keynote speech about designing it. After the speech, I asked Ira West his honest opinion of Joe Rodhe. His answer was similar to what you said: worried about details than substance. Animal Kingdom was an awful park design from a guest flow and operational point of view and its only in preparation for Avatar that they started correcting the infrastructure.

Research trips are not a bad thing per say, but it should not occupy most of your financial and time ressources. Six Flags Magic Mountain Roaring Rapids has primitive, but still nice rock work around the later portion of the ride. Research trip for what they should look like? Ira West just pulled his photos from his rafting trip on the Colorado river that he went on before and that was what they used to make the river look more natural.

There was a dvd featurette around 2006 that illustrated the problem with Rohde beautifully...it was a promo for Everest.

300 person research junkets to Nepal...

I’ll remind that the ride is permanently broken and has been since near day 1. I’m exotic in that I’ve ridden it functioning several times.

I remember thinking he was wasting money at that time.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

In general, I really like DAK's layout, and find that it adds to the sense of immersion for me.

However, there are some things that just don't make sense. The most glaring example is the placement of Dinosaur. Why is one of the park's big e-tickets practically hidden? A lot of visitors never even find out that it exists. Totally nonsensical.

On another note, as a reminder to everyone regarding Dino-Rama: Rohde and his team were forced by the Eisner/Pressler administration to add a certain amount of ride capacity with a tiny budget. I suspect that few people like that decision less than Rohde.

Can’t blame him for dinorama

Can blame him for an over budget/underbuilt poorly attended park.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I’m exotic in that I’ve ridden it functioning several times.

The fog effects really made all the difference didn’t they?

 

[MisterPenguin]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but isn't that exactly how MK is laid out? Instead of coming in the park entrance and immediately cutting left to Pirates or right to Buzz, you're forced to walk up Main Street almost all the way to the castle before you encounter your first decision point where you can turn left or right.

If anything, MK's overly elaborate arrival sequence with the first vista of the castle from TTC, followed by the monorail or ferry journey, park entrance, and clear view up Main Street is even more demanding of guests to stop and pay their respects at the icon. There's a perverse obsession with the castle and its approach that almost makes it seem like it's a religious object that must be venerated. And yet, each and every time you approach the park, you can hear the excitement of other guests as the anticipation builds as they get closer to it.

At DAK, the distance from the park entrance until the first major decision point is approximately 700'. At MK, the distance to the very first decision point next to Casey's Corner is about 760'; it's another 120' to the point where the road itself splits to form the hub, where most guests walk before turning.

View attachment 503053

View attachment 503054

The meandering paths through the Oasis obscure vistas of what lies ahead, potentially making it feel longer as it's intentionally designed to slow guests down to look at the details. However, the cattle chute of Main Street actually covers more distance as it funnels guests ever closer to the imposing landmark in the distance. There's also something to be said about the high-stress environment created by sending all guests through a single gauntlet of merchandise locations prior to the first decision point, rather than letting them spread out onto multiple secluded paths with no real sales locations until you're actually at the decision point.

Measured in a straight line, rather than along the path a guest would follow, the distance from the DAK entrance gates to the center of the Tree of Life is approximately 950'; from the MK gates to the center of the castle is approximately 1250'.

View attachment 503055

View attachment 503056

Although the arrival sequences at the two parks are designed to create very different atmospheres (anticipation and excitement vs. exploration and discovery), the distances to key features are actually quite similar. If anything, MK is larger and even more of an ordeal with its arrival sequence creating a long series of bottlenecks before guests reach the first decision point.

DAK's entrance and MK's entrance both have a sort of lobby-attraction. DAK has oasis. MK has Town Square. Town Square is wide open and spacious. DAK has narrow walkways.

The narrower the walkway, the more difficult it is to walk it because of traffic coming the opposite way. And there's much less chance to pass anyone going slowly or stopped. And with the Oasis walkway, there are attractions along the way which cause people to stop and constrict the path further. With a wide open space like Town Square, you have a lot of options to pass people going the opposite way or standing still.

DAK then has a bridge that's 35' wide. Main Street, OTOH, is 54' across. There is no comparison to how much DAK is a choke point here with the much narrower main thoroughfare. If you take the narrow walkway of Oasis with the bridge, that's 584' of constriction. Main Street's constriction is only 352' long (and significantly wider).

In MK, once you get to the end of Main Street, you have a path to the right and left past Casey's and Plaza to avoid the hub. A few feet later, you have more spokes. And getting even closer to the castle, you have more spokes. You can cut left or right in MK when you're 548' from the castle.

In DAK, however, you can't cut right or left until you're 317' from the Tree of Life. They really wanted you to get close to the Tree.

I will definitely grant you that the whole TTC and lake thing was a huge mistake which overly complicated arrival to MK. Park your car. In 40 minutes, you may be able to get into the MK!

Not that DAK's conceit of making you suffer in a shadeless lot (the work of man is awful!!) before entering a thick jungle where you suffer the overgrowth of nature (man's attempt to tame nature is awful!!) and it is still somehow hotter in that shade isn't better.

MK also has the advantage of two 'emergency' spillways for guests to enter (Holiday party nights) or leave. When the fireworks is done, the mass of people leaving MK keeps moving. When RoL was done, the route out was barely moving.

DAK has a path all the way around Discovery River that stops at Pandora and DinoLand. In both places, rather than continue around the river until you reach a path leading out, the path forces you to head back into the central part of the park over a bridge and past the Tree of Life.

What happens when DAK finally develops that huge Northern expanse and is drawing in a dozen thousand more people per day (and has a popular night show)? Ouch.

 

[HongKongFooy]

DAK then has a bridge that's 35' wide. Main Street, OTOH, is 54' across. There is no comparison to how much DAK is a choke point here with the much narrower main thoroughfare.

But there are estimators saying Animal Kingdom sees approx 14 million vs Magic Kingdom's roughly 21 million per year. I'm not clinging to the generalized figures too hard but it's something to consider here......

And, again, after perhaps 100 visits over the last 20 years I still have never been faced with a real clog in the AK walkways.......with the qualifier that I have not been during Christmas week and the like but I have visited during very busy times just not the crazy insane times.

Am I just fairly lucky?(not sarcasm but an honest question)

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

But there are estimators saying Animal Kingdom sees approx 14 million vs Magic Kingdom's roughly 21 million per year. I'm not clinging to the generalized figures too hard but it's something to consider here......

And, again, after perhaps 100 visits over the last 20 years I still have never been faced with a real clog in the AK walkways.......with the qualifier that I have not been during Christmas week and the like but I have visited during very busy times just not the crazy insane times.

Am I just fairly lucky?(not sarcasm but an honest question)

I’ve been over Christmas and nye, and July 4th and no DAK does not get crowded like the other parks, including World Showcase.

I intentionally went to DAK on nye this year in between the MK Christmas parade and fireworks.

I’ve also been to DAK during at capacity rivers of light shows and the exit experience was much better than any other Florida park. (The Exit from world of color at DCA is similarly peaceful and easy.)

 

[MisterPenguin]

But there are estimators saying Animal Kingdom sees approx 14 million vs Magic Kingdom's roughly 21 million per year. I'm not clinging to the generalized figures too hard but it's something to consider here......

And, again, after perhaps 100 visits over the last 20 years I still have never been faced with a real clog in the AK walkways.......with the qualifier that I have not been during Christmas week and the like but I have visited during very busy times just not the crazy insane times.

Am I just fairly lucky?(not sarcasm but an honest question)

Have you attended a RoL which ends the night at DAK and tried to get out with that crowd?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Have you attended a RoL which ends the night at DAK and tried to get out with that crowd?

I have. At capacity as well.

 

[HongKongFooy]

Have you attended a RoL which ends the night at DAK and tried to get out with that crowd?

Yes, on two occasions.........I don't recall any frustration getting out or noteworthy clogging. It was busy indeed with guests leaving, of course, but I seem to remember it was workable.

Now leaving after(or during)the nighttime castle extravaganza/fireworks at MK is a different story. We wisely either cut out early before sum 55k irritable and tired folk bumm rushed us getting to the monorail or just patiently waited for the throngs to clear out and causally stroll out like winners.

 

[UNCgolf]

I have. At capacity as well.

I also have, and it was heavenly compared to the Magic Kingdom.

Plus, nobody has to get in that crowd. You can go explore a bit, enjoy the night, and wait for the crowds to clear up before exiting. It's very pleasant to be in the parks at night when they are mostly empty.

 

[_caleb]

DAK is one of the worst-planned parks in the Disney portfolio. The walkways and attraction locations don’t make any sense for crowd control. I respect Rohde and know he’s talented, but we have to be honest that DAK has some decisions based on ego rather than operational reality.

I don’t care how authentic the paint jobs are on the buildings, or how many imported knick-knacks are in a queue, if it takes an eternity to walk from one ride/exhibit to another.

What makes you say that decisions were based on ego? Just curious.

As for the layout, I really enjoy AK's "meandering trails" approach. I agree with @MisterPenguin about there being too many bottlenecks, but to me, it helps create a sense of "discovering" each new area.

I think it's clear that Joe really was trying to so something new/different on purpose with AK (in some ways, deliberately bucking the conventional wisdom learned from DL and MK). So it's not entirely fair to compare it to MK, which was clearly a "lessons learned" do-over after DL.

The "authenticity" is exactly what I love about AK. Having traveled to many of the places that inspired AK, I love the fact that these lands succeed in making me feel the same way I felt in the Africa and South Asia. Obviously, AK's lands are not "realistic," recreations, but I really appreciate that Joe led the team to capture the experience of visiting those places.

I guess we all like different things, though, don't we?

 

[UNCgolf]

I doubt Rohde will ever work on another major project anyways.

He's 65, and it seems very unlikely that Disney is going to build anything new in the next 5 years. He will probably be retired before Disney actually builds any more attractions (although it's possible he could be involved in some preliminary design work).

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I doubt Rohde will ever work on another major project anyways.

He's 65, and it seems very unlikely that Disney is going to build anything new in the next 5 years. He will probably be retired before Disney actually builds any more attractions (although it's possible he could be involved in some preliminary design work).

Well I’m sure he’s been working on all sorts of possible projects and expansions for DAK. It may have been all staged but wasn’t he working on the model of DL Tomorrowland in the imagineering video?

Plus there is the Bahamas project.