No more steam trains? (rumor)

[Goofyernmost]

Except that authenticity was once considered an important aspect of Show. It is not supposed to all be fakery. That's why Walt had two immaculate steam trains built for Disneyland. It is why Imagineers buy antiques as set pieces. Authentic pieces create the reality that makes the fantasy more believable.

I agree in part, but, Walt was a train fanatic. It might have worked out well that they blended in well with that particular show, but, don't kid yourself, Walt had those two trains for himself. Worked out well for the park, but, I doubt he would have cared if they hadn't.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I agree in part, but, Walt was a train fanatic. It might have worked out well that they blended in well with that particular show, but, don't kid yourself, Walt had those two trains for himself. Worked out well for the park, but, I doubt he would have cared if they hadn't.

No doubt the trains were all Walt. That is why he continued to own the Disneyland Railroad even after he sold WED Enterprises. It is part of why the steam trains are so important.

 

[officeboy]

This is the first model I got to operate Trolley wise. Its actually very stress free (for the most part). Its a gas motor will a simple throttle and brake. What's nice about it is that it was responsive and easy to operate. Part of the reason I enjoyed it so much, you enjoyed the ride while operating it. And incase your wonder the trolly bell is located on the floor and is operated with you foot.
I started to learn the electric Trolley but the line was never completed in Savannah but I believe that that should be changing in a few years.

I never got to operate a 44, but I got operate this bad boy I don't remember the model I know its a GE.

and this old beauty:

I also helped my father replace the diesel motor of a Davenport but thats a different story.


Correct but if you spend enough money you can replicate the air intake and other natural sounds (out side of the diesel) to get a realistic sound though it won't be exactly the sound but its not cheap and really not worth it.


Boiler explosion wasn't where I was going with this. I was hinting at the hours of up start up time and shut down time to guarantee safe operation. While yes they are safe there is a level of caution that you don't have to put in a diesel. Take a diesel prime the fuel, check the batteries and crank the ignition a lot less to go wrong.
Don't take this as me siding for diesel there is nothing like operating a steam locomotive watching flames shoot out of the firebox at you every time it intakes air. Also nothing like a corn on the cob cooked by a steam locomotive.

S&A 2715 is a GP35

 

[ford91exploder]

S&A 2715 is a GP35

Thanks - I did not think it looked like a U-boat (GE locomotives are referred to as U-boats)

 

[ford91exploder]

Before anyone gets the wrong idea the Johnson Bar in a steam locomotive is used to set the cylinder cut off percentage which at mainline speeds is around 10-20% of boiler pressure, From a full stop it's around 85% which means almost entire boiler pressure is acting on cylinders.

It also reverses the locomotive

 

[Roo Bear]

Please don't get rid of the steam trains! The first thing we do in MK is stand on the entrance to the railroad, look down Main Street then ride right around the park. That way we get all the sights & smells & are ready to party!

 

[Voxel]

S&A 2715 is a GP35

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[ReggieA]

My goodness. I haven't seen this much nonsense since... our last FEBT Work Session.

OK: For starters, The Friends of the East Broad Top RR does not own or operate the East Broad Top RR. We are not the Railroad; the Railroad is not us. Nor is there an interlocking directorate. The EBT is a privately owned, for-profit corporation. The FEBT is a non-profit (501c3) corporation. Membership is available; our website is FEBT (dot) org. There is also an "East Broad Top Preservation Association". That's not us either, it's one guy.

The EBT RR (EBTRR dot com) is currently closed. They ceased operating at the end of 2011, for reasons too complex for this post. The railroad still exists, and could be re-opened if there were a "sugar daddy" to finance it. If you know anyone, we'd be glad to elaborate in private. (Not holding my breath, but hey... it could happen.)

No one has heard anything about using the EBT's tracks for test running any locomotives, like the Lilly Belle. Of course, since we are not the Railroad, it's not certain that we would. It's entirely possible that something like that could happen, once the weather breaks this spring. It's been done before, and both the Railroad and the Friends are on good terms with the folks at the Strasburg Rail Road.

As for locomotives, steam, Diesel, and bogus, there is nothing that sounds the way that a real steam locomotive does. And it's got nothing to do with "air flow"; it's the exhaust steam released from the cylinders. You can use any heat source to fuel the boiler that makes the steam; coal and fuel oil are common, wood was common 150 years ago, and propane (etc.) burners are certainly possible. The Swiss even rigged a few steam locomotives with electric heaters during WWII ! I'm not sure what Lilly Belle burns, but it's not a big deal unless you're shoveling the coal yourself.

If you have something you'd like to sound like a steam locomotive, they make sound units for model railroad engines. Hook that to a big PA system, and you can make any kind of noise you want: I've heard of someone who made their van sound like a big Diesel locomotive, horn and all. Of course if you do that with a bogus "steam" locomotive, you'll still be able to hear the Diesel motor running, and the simulation is just that - not perfect. And I've heard steam whistles "blown" with compressed air - it's clearly different. Steam is not an "ideal gas", if you want the physics...

As for me? I'm an early member of the Friends of the East Broad Top, sometime volunteer at the Railroad, and will be attending our Work Session at the Orbisonia yards next weekend. We're restoring an old combine car; it should be done in a few years. If I see any shiny rails or stray locomotives, I'll let you know.

ReggieA
FEBT Member #17

 

[LBiemiller]

I HAVE NO INFORMATION THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION

She MAY be at the East Broad Top Railroad which uses the same gauge rail, This is a possibility if they are doing shakedown testing as EBT also has a complete machine shop with narrow gauge tooling and since they OPERATE a narrow gauge railroad they are in a better position to correct any operational faults as well as 'stress test' the Lilly Belle in service.

Website
http://www.febt.org/

"ford91exploder" speculates that a Disney engine may be at the East Broad Top, in Rockhill Furnace, Pa.—speculation based, apparently, on nothing more than the East Broad Top's being three-foot gauge. Iford91exploder is dead wrong. I have no knowledge, firsthand or otherwise, about Disney's plans, although I do have the greatest respect for the quality of Disney's steam operations. But I do have a fair amount of first-hand knowledge about the EBT, where I've been a volunteer for years.

First, the railroad's been closed since December 2011, because the owner wants to sell it. The owner, by the way, is Joe Kovalchick, a scrap dealer who inherited the line from his father, who bought it in 1956 after the coal mines it served shut down. The railroad is not owned by the Friends of the East Broad Top (of which I am a board member) — that's a volunteer organization dedicated to doing whatever we can to save the EBT.

Second, I was in Rockhill three weeks ago giving tours of the roundhouse and the shops, and there were no Disney engines on the property — there was nothing unexpected except a lot of unplowed snow. A whole lot. You can see pictures on the East Broad Top's Facebook page.

Third, while the EBT's circa-1905 machine shops are amazing, they have been almost entirely out of service since the railroad closed in 1956. FEBT members have been working hard to stabilize the shops structurally, and we have several pieces of shop machinery running off of electric motors (rather than off the stationary steam engine that powered them originally). But the shops are in no condition to overhaul a locomotive. At this point they would be hard pressed to overhaul a wrench — and then only in warm weather, since they have no heat.

Fourth, the "stress test" ford91exploder envisions is a product of that person's imagination. There are highly technical ways of testing locomotive boilers, because you don't want them blowing up, but those tests don't take place while the engine is pulling a passenger train in service. That would be crazy. (The EBT, unlike amusement-park railroads like those at the Disney operations, is subject to Federal Railroad Administration requirements and record-keeping. An FRA inspector had to be called in at the beginning of every season, and paperwork had to be submitted showing that the railroad was keeping up with federally required boiler washes, &c.)

Fifth, it's hard enough running a steam railroad without being pestered by rumors spread by people who have no idea what they're talking about. The EBT has been beleaguered by rumors for years — my own theory is that it has the highest rumor-to-railroad-tie ratio of any narrow-gauge in the U.S. I hope the Disney operations do not fall prey to the same inglorious fate.

—Lawrence Biemiller, Washington, D.C.

I HAVE NO INFORMATION THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION

She MAY be at the East Broad Top Railroad which uses the same gauge rail, This is a possibility if they are doing shakedown testing as EBT also has a complete machine shop with narrow gauge tooling and since they OPERATE a narrow gauge railroad they are in a better position to correct any operational faults as well as 'stress test' the Lilly Belle in service.

Website
http://www.febt.org/

 

[ReggieA]

Lawrence, I think that the "stress test" in this case would be a "load test". I.e., hook up to a suitable cut of cars, and pull them around until you're satisfied that the locomotive works as she should. Since the EBT has plenty of cars available for this, and the track and grades are available, it's not an unreasonable suggestion.

(...)
Fourth, the "stress test" ford91exploder envisions is a product of that person's imagination. There are highly technical ways of testing locomotive boilers, because you don't want them blowing up, but those tests don't take place while the engine is pulling a passenger train in service. That would be crazy.

—Lawrence Biemiller, Washington, D.C.

 

[CDavid]

My goodness. I haven't seen this much nonsense since... our last FEBT Work Session.

OK: For starters, The Friends of the East Broad Top RR does not own or operate the East Broad Top RR. We are not the Railroad; the Railroad is not us. Nor is there an interlocking directorate. The EBT is a privately owned, for-profit corporation. The FEBT is a non-profit (501c3) corporation. Membership is available; our website is FEBT (dot) org. There is also an "East Broad Top Preservation Association". That's not us either, it's one guy.

The EBT RR (EBTRR dot com) is currently closed. They ceased operating at the end of 2011, for reasons too complex for this post. The railroad still exists, and could be re-opened if there were a "sugar daddy" to finance it. If you know anyone, we'd be glad to elaborate in private. (Not holding my breath, but hey... it could happen.)

No one has heard anything about using the EBT's tracks for test running any locomotives, like the Lilly Belle. Of course, since we are not the Railroad, it's not certain that we would. It's entirely possible that something like that could happen, once the weather breaks this spring. It's been done before, and both the Railroad and the Friends are on good terms with the folks at the Strasburg Rail Road.

As for locomotives, steam, Diesel, and bogus, there is nothing that sounds the way that a real steam locomotive does. And it's got nothing to do with "air flow"; it's the exhaust steam released from the cylinders. You can use any heat source to fuel the boiler that makes the steam; coal and fuel oil are common, wood was common 150 years ago, and propane (etc.) burners are certainly possible. The Swiss even rigged a few steam locomotives with electric heaters during WWII ! I'm not sure what Lilly Belle burns, but it's not a big deal unless you're shoveling the coal yourself.

If you have something you'd like to sound like a steam locomotive, they make sound units for model railroad engines. Hook that to a big PA system, and you can make any kind of noise you want: I've heard of someone who made their van sound like a big Diesel locomotive, horn and all. Of course if you do that with a bogus "steam" locomotive, you'll still be able to hear the Diesel motor running, and the simulation is just that - not perfect. And I've heard steam whistles "blown" with compressed air - it's clearly different. Steam is not an "ideal gas", if you want the physics...

As for me? I'm an early member of the Friends of the East Broad Top, sometime volunteer at the Railroad, and will be attending our Work Session at the Orbisonia yards next weekend. We're restoring an old combine car; it should be done in a few years. If I see any shiny rails or stray locomotives, I'll let you know.

ReggieA
FEBT Member #17

"ford91exploder" speculates that a Disney engine may be at the East Broad Top, in Rockhill Furnace, Pa.—speculation based, apparently, on nothing more than the East Broad Top's being three-foot gauge. Iford91exploder is dead wrong. I have no knowledge, firsthand or otherwise, about Disney's plans, although I do have the greatest respect for the quality of Disney's steam operations. But I do have a fair amount of first-hand knowledge about the EBT, where I've been a volunteer for years.

First, the railroad's been closed since December 2011, because the owner wants to sell it. The owner, by the way, is Joe Kovalchick, a scrap dealer who inherited the line from his father, who bought it in 1956 after the coal mines it served shut down. The railroad is not owned by the Friends of the East Broad Top (of which I am a board member) — that's a volunteer organization dedicated to doing whatever we can to save the EBT.

Second, I was in Rockhill three weeks ago giving tours of the roundhouse and the shops, and there were no Disney engines on the property — there was nothing unexpected except a lot of unplowed snow. A whole lot. You can see pictures on the East Broad Top's Facebook page.

Third, while the EBT's circa-1905 machine shops are amazing, they have been almost entirely out of service since the railroad closed in 1956. FEBT members have been working hard to stabilize the shops structurally, and we have several pieces of shop machinery running off of electric motors (rather than off the stationary steam engine that powered them originally). But the shops are in no condition to overhaul a locomotive. At this point they would be hard pressed to overhaul a wrench — and then only in warm weather, since they have no heat.

Fourth, the "stress test" ford91exploder envisions is a product of that person's imagination. There are highly technical ways of testing locomotive boilers, because you don't want them blowing up, but those tests don't take place while the engine is pulling a passenger train in service. That would be crazy. (The EBT, unlike amusement-park railroads like those at the Disney operations, is subject to Federal Railroad Administration requirements and record-keeping. An FRA inspector had to be called in at the beginning of every season, and paperwork had to be submitted showing that the railroad was keeping up with federally required boiler washes, &c.)

Fifth, it's hard enough running a steam railroad without being pestered by rumors spread by people who have no idea what they're talking about. The EBT has been beleaguered by rumors for years — my own theory is that it has the highest rumor-to-railroad-tie ratio of any narrow-gauge in the U.S. I hope the Disney operations do not fall prey to the same inglorious fate.

—Lawrence Biemiller, Washington, D.C.

Thanks for the information. I wish you both the best of luck with the preservation and (one hopes) future operation of the East Broad Top. I'd still very much like to see it someday.

 

[ReggieA]

Thanks for the information. I wish you both the best of luck with the preservation and (one hopes) future operation of the East Broad Top. I'd still very much like to see it someday.

Well...
The Friends of the EBT has a "Reunion" at the Orbisonia yards around the Columbus Day weekend. This was originally timed to coincide with the Railroad's "Fall Spectacular". Since the Railroad isn't running, there's no Spectacular, but we still have our Reunion then. The last two years, while the EBT has not been running, the owner of the EBT (Mr. Kovalchick) was kind enough to offer those attending a private train trip. This was a gift, not a bought fare; and he may or may not do it again this year. Of course, participation in the Reunion is limited to FEBT members.

But if you were an FEBT member, and if you attend this year's Reunion, and if Mr. Kovalchick is kind enough to offer another ride on his train... you could do it. That's a stack of "if"s - but it's Spring, and Hope springs eternal. As a member, you might also participate in one of our FEBT Work Sessions, depending on your schedule and location; but I'm guessing that you're interested in riding the train.

 

[FerretAfros]

Not that it means much of anything in the grand scheme of things, but they were showing this video on DME while we were waiting for more passengers at the airport during my visit last month. It features WDI's Jason Surrell waxing poetic about how great it is to have real steam trains, and all the extra stuff that comes with it. It stood out to me, since I remembered hearing this rumor shortly before that trip. It's almost like they're trying to teach guests how to appreciate a steam train

 

[asianway]

Not that it means much of anything in the grand scheme of things, but they were showing this video on DME while we were waiting for more passengers at the airport during my visit last month. It features WDI's Jason Surrell waxing poetic about how great it is to have real steam trains, and all the extra stuff that comes with it. It stood out to me, since I remembered hearing this rumor shortly before that trip. It's almost like they're trying to teach guests how to appreciate a steam train

The nephews were on the dme vid for the longest time too. See where that got them

 

[steve2wdw]

Disney really needs to push the fact that these are "living, breathing" pieces of history, to it's guests. So many tourists are unaware of just how important these pieces of machinery were to the development of our country.

 

[barrettismyhero]

I could just see Disney World converting and having narrow gauge SD40-2's..

Would be interesting to say the least.

 

[ford91exploder]

I love the comprehension impaired, Did you not read the header - THIS IS PURE SPECULATION

When a well known 'narrow gauge' locomotive goes off the grid for repairs, In the absence of positive information one speculates on where it CAN go and in the US that is a very limited number of places yours is among them.

If you want additional volunteers open hostility towards people who enjoy trains and have professional background engineering might not be the way to go.

There are a bunch of people on this thread who have actual operational experience on steam and diesel locomotives @Voxel grew up learning to operate the motive power for a tourist railroad, I have diesel experience and i've even been involved on and off through the years with the Flying Yankee and have been one of the many donors financing the project.

As for 'stress testing' to determine tractive effort that would be done with a dynamometer car, since it's narrow gauge it could only be done at a narrow gauge railroad and since Joe and FEBT and the Cumbres and Toltec are the only remaining operational narrow gauge operations in the US.

"ford91exploder" speculates that a Disney engine may be at the East Broad Top, in Rockhill Furnace, Pa.—speculation based, apparently, on nothing more than the East Broad Top's being three-foot gauge. Iford91exploder is dead wrong. I have no knowledge, firsthand or otherwise, about Disney's plans, although I do have the greatest respect for the quality of Disney's steam operations. But I do have a fair amount of first-hand knowledge about the EBT, where I've been a volunteer for years.

First, the railroad's been closed since December 2011, because the owner wants to sell it. The owner, by the way, is Joe Kovalchick, a scrap dealer who inherited the line from his father, who bought it in 1956 after the coal mines it served shut down. The railroad is not owned by the Friends of the East Broad Top (of which I am a board member) — that's a volunteer organization dedicated to doing whatever we can to save the EBT.

Second, I was in Rockhill three weeks ago giving tours of the roundhouse and the shops, and there were no Disney engines on the property — there was nothing unexpected except a lot of unplowed snow. A whole lot. You can see pictures on the East Broad Top's Facebook page.

Third, while the EBT's circa-1905 machine shops are amazing, they have been almost entirely out of service since the railroad closed in 1956. FEBT members have been working hard to stabilize the shops structurally, and we have several pieces of shop machinery running off of electric motors (rather than off the stationary steam engine that powered them originally). But the shops are in no condition to overhaul a locomotive. At this point they would be hard pressed to overhaul a wrench — and then only in warm weather, since they have no heat.

Fourth, the "stress test" ford91exploder envisions is a product of that person's imagination. There are highly technical ways of testing locomotive boilers, because you don't want them blowing up, but those tests don't take place while the engine is pulling a passenger train in service. That would be crazy. (The EBT, unlike amusement-park railroads like those at the Disney operations, is subject to Federal Railroad Administration requirements and record-keeping. An FRA inspector had to be called in at the beginning of every season, and paperwork had to be submitted showing that the railroad was keeping up with federally required boiler washes, &c.)

Fifth, it's hard enough running a steam railroad without being pestered by rumors spread by people who have no idea what they're talking about. The EBT has been beleaguered by rumors for years — my own theory is that it has the highest rumor-to-railroad-tie ratio of any narrow-gauge in the U.S. I hope the Disney operations do not fall prey to the same inglorious fate.

—Lawrence Biemiller, Washington, D.C.

 

[officeboy]

This web site popped up recently.

http://www.savedisneysteam.com/

And the petition:

https://www.change.org/petitions/the-walt-disney-company-save-disney-steam

Since WDW is run as a business, and not as a museum it is my opinion this rumor of replacing the steam engines is not far from from the mark. It makes little business sense to continue pouring money into something that is not necessary considering the alternatives. Now don't get me wrong. I have moved a few tons of black rock into a hole(never had to chase the shovel!) and I am a firm believer that steam should stay on the rails in WDW forever. There is no business case for keeping steam alive in the park, but there is a certain bit of magic that would be lost if it were to happen. The steam train somewhere on the berm as you enter the park area by boat, or monorail has always been a welcoming sight for me that I cherish. Knowing that my nephews have learned about steam and enjoy riding this RR because it is steam drives home the point for me that this bit of education is important.

The petition to save Toad didn't go very far with the company apparently. It's gone. They wanted to put in a new experience for their guests. Conversely removing steam from the rails and replacing it with a steam outline does not add to the guest experience. In fact I would say it detracts from the guest experience.

Of course removing the trains altogether is not off the table so I understand. Remember the Skyway? (yep, blatant plagiarism)

 

[Monorail_Orange]

Well, one thing is for sure, if this should come to pass, there would be absolutely no point to the Magic Behind Our Steam Trains Tour. I mean, who would want to do the Magic Behind Our Simulated Steam Train Tour?

 

[MarkTwain]

Not that it means much of anything in the grand scheme of things, but they were showing this video on DME while we were waiting for more passengers at the airport during my visit last month. It features WDI's Jason Surrell waxing poetic about how great it is to have real steam trains, and all the extra stuff that comes with it. It stood out to me, since I remembered hearing this rumor shortly before that trip. It's almost like they're trying to teach guests how to appreciate a steam train

Interesting... I wonder if that's WDI's subtle way of making a point to park operations?