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Nintendo partnering with Universal to make attractions.

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
It’s the root of biggest complaint, that the place feels lifeless and devoid of activity. The land has no hierarchy of space or pattern language, it doesn’t shape spaces but hides it away.

I'll give you the first part. It severely needs kinetic movement and the random performances it was supposed to have. I don't think it needs music everywhere, but it does need more than it has.

But what does this (bolded) even mean?
 
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Clopin Trouillefou

Active Member
I'll give you the first part. It severely needs kinetic movement and the random performances it was supposed to have. I don't think it needs music everywhere, but it does need more than it has.

But what does this (bolded) even mean?

On my super fun day at star wars land I got to see cool glowy lightsabers and a stormtrooper brigade and fly the falcon and see little kids dressed like Rey and I guess I was so preoccupied I didn't even notice the lack of the hierarchy of space or pattern language
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
New angles. Good look at Peach's Castle.

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https://kotaku.com/japans-super-nintendo-world-looks-amazing-sure-but-al-1845822889/amp
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I'll give you the first part. It severely needs kinetic movement and the random performances it was supposed to have. I don't think it needs music everywhere, but it does need more than it has.

But what does this (bolded) even mean?
Hierarchy of space is the designing of space so as to communicate the importance of difference spaces, so that the experiencer understands the primary spaces as important. There is no single way this is done, usually employing the entire array of design tools including scale, mass, ornament, placement and everything else that can go into a design. The height and central placement of Cinderella Castle points to its importance. The lobby of a hotel is often taller than the room corridors. You're living room is probably larger and more centrally located than your bedroom and your closet may be hidden in the bathroom. The arcades of Main Street, USA in Paris are smaller than the street and it would be really weird if they were bigger, because they are the back way down. There are complaints about World Bazaar being confusing even though it is only a cross because the size and shape of Center Street is similar to that of Main Street, the two are both treated as primary. Disney's Animal Kingdom confuses people, and mores before the paths were widened, because it was hard to discern which went where because the paths were visually and spatially similar.

What is the most important space in Black Spire Outpost? Is it the area in front of the major E-Ticket that is largely path and landscaping? Is it the space around the iconic Millennium Falcon that is hidden behind buildings and rock work? Is it the stages off to the sides that were supposed to host shows? Or, as an old trading post on the outskirts of the galaxy, is it the market where people from across the galaxy come to trade that is also sitting off to the side? Wanting to spread out crowds and encourage exploration are good ideas, but the land should have some sort of clear experiential center where activity is taking place. Just walking into the land blindly you come across of buildings that just looked closed. They have no windows and solid doors that are closed. There is nothing that tells you that you really need to go over there and up the stairs to find the market or up and then over to find the Falcon or turn around and head back to the woods for the signature attraction. Excepting Ronto Roasters most everything is hidden out of view and nothing really tells you how to find it, not even a weenie.

Pattern language is the whole system by which design problems are addressed. It is a recognition that designs solve problems in certain reoccurring ways. At its simplest level a door is a type of pattern, it is a common way we provide access and privacy for a room. All together these things build larger patterns that we recognize and understand. If you think about it, most land's don't have a lot of live entertainment. Even those that do, it is not constant. Losing the last of the Citizens of Hollywood is a shame but you did not see people talking about how dead those areas felt when they were on break. The entertainment is a plus that adds to the experience, but is not the absolute key to the experience. This is because other lands build on known pattern languages. We just sort of assume Main Street is occupied because there are windows everywhere and windows are for rooms that people use and not the broom closet. It was erroneous to say that Galaxy's Edge does not follow a pattern language, as it does, and more appropriate to say it does not follow an appropriate pattern language. The Star Wars aesthetic is far too rooted in the locales of the original trilogy that are largely not supposed to be inviting places and also a result of budget limitations. The world of Star Wars is oddly absent of windows with even the Cloud City not getting clear windows until the Special Editions. The Jetsons knew how to live in the clouds, huge panoramic windows and glass domes, not big solid walls. You're not going to buy a penthouse with bad views much less no views. Batuu as a new place had room to introduce "newish" ideas that make sense to a themed experience. There is nothing that readily communicates that there are shops or a bar behind solid walls with a single solid door. Nothing tells us this is a place where people live. Sure there are things like some sort of meticulous paint that is something someone spilled or whatnot but its not something that is just understood. On Main Street, USA we understand the pattern of a shop with residence or office above. We instantly understand it is a type of place where people live. We don't have that in Black Spire Outpost.

The issue of pattern language is, if not consciously, understood by Nintendo. The known world of Mario is mostly landscape, not city and not even really villages. It's a platformer and a bunch of static platforms would be a boring visual. All of that required animation is an acknowledgement of that lack of a pattern language. The organization of the land breaks with the classic games by not being very linear. There is a central space around which everything wraps where one congregates with others but then can see others walking around, can see the shops and dining, can see the Yoshi ride, can see the weenie of Bowser's Castle containing the marquee ride and even see the portal pipe that leads to Donkey Kong Country which, to those unfamiliar with the Super Mario Bros. games have been introduced to the pattern of portal pipes by entering the land through one. Donkey Kong Country then does the same by placing you into a center space that is bounded by the coaster whose entrance is ahead and provides access to the land's other venues.
 
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Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Hierarchy of space is the designing of space so as to communicate the importance of difference spaces, so that the experiencer understands the primary spaces as important. There is no single way this is done, usually employing the entire array of design tools including scale, mass, ornament, placement and everything else that can go into a design. The height and central placement of Cinderella Castle points to its importance. The lobby of a hotel is often taller than the room corridors. You're living room is probably larger and more centrally located than your bedroom and your closet may be hidden in the bathroom. The arcades of Main Street, USA in Paris are smaller than the street and it would be really weird if they were bigger, because they are the back way down. There are complaints about World Bazaar being confusing even though it is only a cross because the size and shape of Center Street is similar to that of Main Street, the two are both treated as primary. Disney's Animal Kingdom confuses people, and mores before the paths were widened, because it was hard to discern which went where because the paths were visually and spatially similar.

What is the most important space in Black Spire Outpost? Is it the area in front of the major E-Ticket that is largely path and landscaping? Is it the space around the iconic Millennium Falcon that is hidden behind buildings and rock work? Is it the stages off to the sides that were supposed to host shows? Or, as an old trading post on the outskirts of the galaxy, is it the market where people from across the galaxy come to trade that is also sitting off to the side? Wanting to spread out crowds and encourage exploration are good ideas, but the land should have some sort of clear experiential center where activity is taking place. Just walking into the land blindly you come across of buildings that just looked closed. They have no windows and solid doors that are closed. There is nothing that tells you that you really need to go over there and up the stairs to find the market or up and then over to find the Falcon or turn around and head back to the woods for the signature attraction. Excepting Ronto Roasters most everything is hidden out of view and nothing really tells you how to find it, not even a weenie.

Pattern language is the whole system by which design problems are addressed. It is a recognition that designs solve problems in certain reoccurring ways. At its simplest level a door is a type of pattern, it is a common way we provide access and privacy for a room. All together these things build larger patterns that we recognize and understand. If you think about it, most land's don't have a lot of live entertainment. Even those that do, it is not constant. Losing the last of the Citizens of Hollywood is a shame but you did not see people talking about how dead those areas felt when they were on break. The entertainment is a plus that adds to the experience, but is not the absolute key to the experience. This is because other lands build on known pattern languages. We just sort of assume Main Street is occupied because there are windows everywhere and windows are for rooms that people use and not the broom closet. It was erroneous to say that Galaxy's Edge does not follow a pattern language, as it does, and more appropriate to say it does not follow an appropriate pattern language. The Star Wars aesthetic is far too rooted in the locales of the original trilogy that are largely not supposed to be inviting places and also a result of budget limitations. The world of Star Wars is oddly absent of windows with even the Cloud City not getting clear windows until the Special Editions. The Jetsons knew how to live in the clouds, huge panoramic windows and glass domes, not big solid walls. You're not going to buy a penthouse with bad views much less no views. Batuu as a new place had room to introduce "newish" ideas that make sense to a themed experience. There is nothing that readily communicates that there are shops or a bar behind solid walls with a single solid door. Nothing tells us this is a place where people live. Sure there are things like some sort of meticulous paint that is something someone spilled or whatnot but its not something that is just understood. On Main Street, USA we understand the pattern of a shop with residence or office above. We instantly understand it is a type of place where people live. We don't have that in Black Spire Outpost.

The issue of pattern language is, if not consciously, understood by Nintendo. The known world of Mario is mostly landscape, not city and not even really villages. It's a platformer and a bunch of static platforms would be a boring visual. All of that required animation is an acknowledgement of that lack of a pattern language. The organization of the land breaks with the classic games by not being very linear. There is a central space around which everything wraps where one congregates with others but then can see others walking around, can see the shops and dining, can see the Yoshi ride, can see the weenie of Bowser's Castle containing the marquee ride and even see the portal pipe that leads to Donkey Kong Country which, to those unfamiliar with the Super Mario Bros. games have been introduced to the pattern of portal pipes by entering the land through one. Donkey Kong Country then does the same by placing you into a center space that is bounded by the coaster whose entrance is ahead and provides access to the land's other venues.

Thank you for the thorough explanation of the concepts. I'm not sure if I agree that they are valid complaints against SWGE, however. You mentioned DAK's original walkways as a comparison, but that was the point, you were supposed to feel like you were exploring the wild, not navigating a theme park via obvious landmarks and focal points, though the park does have the Tree of Life as a constant navigational focal point. The intention with SWGE was pure realism. Real cities are not designed all at once with the intention of making them easy to navigate for tourists. Similarly, the lack of pattern language, well, it's an alien planet, it wouldn't follow our design logic. It all feels very appropriate for a locale the Star Wars universe (we see more slum planets than nice planets, after all), whether or not that makes for a fun environment is a different argument to be had.

Black Spire Outpost doesn't have a "most important space" because, again, its designed to -not- feel like a theme park land. The closest thing, I believe, would be the Falcon itself, and its surrounding plaza. The plaza is large, multiple paths lead to it, and the Falcon is prominently on display. Approaching it offers a similar reveal moment to the main alleyway to Gringotts. It isn't hidden at all, I'm not sure why you described it that way. I believe they walked the line here of making it an obvious point of interest while also having it make sense in-universe by not making it some sort of centerpiece icon for the land. The ship is cool to us, but in-universe its a "hunk of junk".

Rise of the Resistance is in the woods because it's a secret base. It's not part of Black Spire Outpost. (Granted, it's right next to it, but, suspension of disbelief for space constraints). I absolutely love that one of the best rides ever made doesn't have any marquee at all, and you instead check in through a lookout post for the base. Also, that is still an example of pattern language. We see that checkpoint. We recognize it as the entrance to a queue. We know queues lead to an attraction. We don't literally trek through the woods to find the secret base.

Basically, I see this as a "you call it a bug, I call it a feature" situation. They didn't follow standard theme park land layout design the same way Universal didn't follow standard theme park gift shop design when creating Hogsmeade. Disney opted for a land that requires you to explore and pay attention. A land that is big and sprawling enough to get disoriented in. A land that feels like it wasn't made for you. I personally enjoy it and would love for theme parks to continue the trend.
 
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Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
The details inside all the buildings are great. All the moving props, as I've said before, are also great. It's just, even in this video you can feel how cramped it is. The lobby for Peach's castle appears to be about the size of, say, one of the Tower of Terror libraries. The walking space is about on par with Hogsmeade, which, let's face it, is also cramped. Even without covid procedures, this land must have an extremely small capacity.

In my opinion, the ultimate theme park land would combine this level of interactivity, kinetic movement, and overall life with the scope and scale of SWGE.
 
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Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the thorough explanation of the concepts. I'm not sure if I agree that they are valid complaints against SWGE, however. You mentioned DAK's original walkways as a comparison, but that was the point, you were supposed to feel like you were exploring the wild, not navigating a theme park via obvious landmarks and focal points, though the park does have the Tree of Life as a constant navigational focal point. The intention with SWGE was pure realism. Real cities are not designed all at once with the intention of making them easy to navigate for tourists. Similarly, the lack of pattern language, well, it's an alien planet, it wouldn't follow our design logic. It all feels very appropriate for a locale the Star Wars universe (we see more slum planets than nice planets, after all), whether or not that makes for a fun environment is a different argument to be had.

Black Spire Outpost doesn't have a "most important space" because, again, its designed to -not- feel like a theme park land. The closest thing, I believe, would be the Falcon itself, and its surrounding plaza. The plaza is large, multiple paths lead to it, and the Falcon is prominently on display. Approaching it offers a similar reveal moment to the main alleyway to Gringotts. It isn't hidden at all, I'm not sure why you described it that way. I believe they walked the line here of making it an obvious point of interest while also having it make sense in-universe by not making it some sort of centerpiece icon for the land. The ship is cool to us, but in-universe its a "hunk of junk".

Rise of the Resistance is in the woods because it's a secret base. It's not part of Black Spire Outpost. (Granted, it's right next to it, but, suspension of disbelief for space constraints). I absolutely love that one of the best rides ever made doesn't have any marquee at all, and you instead check in through a lookout post for the base. Also, that is still an example of pattern language. We see that checkpoint. We recognize it as the entrance to a queue. We know queues lead to an attraction. We don't literally trek through the woods to find the secret base.

Basically, I see this as a "you call it a bug, I call it a feature" situation. They didn't follow standard theme park land layout design the same way Universal didn't follow standard theme park gift shop design when creating Hogsmeade. Disney opted for a land that requires you to explore and pay attention. A land that is big and sprawling enough to get disoriented in. A land that feels like it wasn't made for you. I personally enjoy it and would love for theme parks to continue the trend.

Fully agree with your counter argument. This is how I feel.
 

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