News New Theater to be built at the Magic Kingdom - now cancelled?

[bhg469]

You're right -- Potter is much bigger than Nintendo/Mario.

If you look at pure revenue it seems like Mario is bigger, but that's not the correct way to measure it. Mario has had dozens of video game releases (along with other things, but the vast majority of revenue is from the video games) over 30+ years. They're also not all unique sales, so aggregating them into one whole gives you a very misleading number.

Most individual Mario titles (basically eliminating ones that came packaged with a system) sell around 10 million copies (which is great!). That doesn't tell you everyone who played them, because some people rent them, buy used, borrow from a friend, etc. -- so let's be exceedingly generous and double it to 20 million. As mentioned above, those aren't 100% unique sales, so you can't just aggregate them across all titles. Some percentage (and likely a relatively large percentage) of sales are to the same individual people; i.e. the same person has bought the 5 most recent Mario games, so those 5 sales only account for one customer. That doesn't matter to Nintendo because they're all sales, but it absolutely does matter for something like theme park attendance.

The first HP book has sold over 120 million copies. There are, of course, some repeat sales in that number, but there's no way to finesse the numbers to get that and Mario even close to one another in terms of cultural reach. The movies also sold something like 100+ million tickets each, and not everyone who saw the movies also read the books -- there's plenty of overlap in those numbers but it's certainly not 1 to 1; there are plenty of people who only ever saw the films.

None of that is to say Mario isn't a valuable property, because it absolutely is. But it's not on the same level as Harry Potter.

As far as a recognizable characters?? Mario is beyond Mickey Mouse at this point.. there isn't a comparison. But all that is moot. I don't care about Potter at all but I love the universal treatment of the lands and the attractions. Having said that. I'm super excited for the new additions for both IPs but there is nothing I'm even on the fence about with the known information about Epic Universe. Even the monsters attraction sounds pretty amazing. It's supposedly A kuka arm coaster with practical effects.

 

[James Alucobond]

If you look at pure revenue it seems like Mario is bigger, but that's not the correct way to measure it. Mario has had dozens of video game releases (along with other things, but the vast majority of revenue is from the video games) over 30+ years. They're also not all unique sales, so aggregating them into one whole gives you a very misleading number.

Most individual Mario titles (basically eliminating ones that came packaged with a system) sell around 10 million copies (which is great!). That doesn't tell you everyone who played them, because some people rent them, buy used, borrow from a friend, etc. -- so let's be exceedingly generous and double it to 20 million. As mentioned above, those aren't 100% unique sales, so you can't just aggregate them across all titles. Some percentage (and likely a relatively large percentage) of sales are to the same individual people; i.e. the same person has bought the 5 most recent Mario games, so those 5 sales only account for one customer. That doesn't matter to Nintendo because they're all sales, but it absolutely does matter for something like theme park attendance.

I’m not going to necessarily argue which is bigger because it’s probably apples to oranges, but you have to consider that Mario headlines many titles outside the side-scroller and platformer genres that appeal to potentially different audiences. There are Mario sports, fighting, racing, party, role-playing, strategy, puzzle, and adventure games. Additionally, when compared to books, a parent is more likely to buy a single game for the entire family to play on one console, whereas they’ll typically buy multiple copies of a book.

The most recent Mario racing game sold 47 million copies, the most recent fighter 29 million, and the most recent platformer 24 million.

 

[UNCgolf]

I’m not going to necessarily argue which is bigger because it’s probably apples to oranges, but you have to consider that Mario headlines many titles outside the side-scroller and platformer genres that appeal to potentially different audiences. There are Mario sports, fighting, racing, party, role-playing, strategy, puzzle, and adventure games. Additionally, when compared to books, a parent is more likely to buy a single game for the entire family to play on one console, whereas they’ll typically buy multiple copies of a book.

The most recent Mario racing game sold 47 million copies, the most recent fighter 29 million, and the most recent platformer 24 million.

The Mario Kart games are really a separate thing and encompass most of Nintendo's IP catalog.

Again, I'm not suggesting Mario isn't a big, valuable property, but I just don't think there's much of an argument that it can draw the same number of people HP does for something like a theme park. Not just because of the sheer numbers I mentioned above, but also because HP is a different kind of property. Visiting places from HP is a much bigger draw for an average HP fan than visiting places from/themed to Mario is for an average Mario fan, partially because of what you mentioned. There are also a large portion of fans who enjoy Mario games because they're well-designed games, and don't necessarily care about the character or setting themselves. That's true of video games in general, although it also varies from game to game.

EDIT: To clarify, I play and enjoy video games. Video games as a whole are a massive industry, but they're far more segmented than other kinds of media. Even the best selling video games aren't really close to the top movies etc. in terms of overall cultural reach. Mario himself is a very well known character, but being well known isn't the same as being an actual draw. And I'm not even saying Mario isn't draw; just that the IP as a whole is less of one than HP (or Star Wars, or probably Marvel now).

If the attractions are fantastic it doesn't really matter, of course, although the Mario Kart ride looks awful if they clone that from Japan.

 

[J4546]

I think an entirely nintendo themed park would be awesome. With princess castle in middle. Donkey kong, Zelda, Pokémon, star fox, fzero, etc....so many ips you could base lands on

 

[James Alucobond]

The Mario Kart games are really a separate thing and encompass most of Nintendo's IP catalogue.

Not true of Kart. That’s true of Smash Brothers, but Kart has traditionally exclusively included characters that originated from the Mario franchise. The very, very minor exception to this is that Link and two Animal Crossing characters were added as part of what was originally paid DLC for the 8th entry in the series, but you won’t find Kirby, Metroid, F-Zero, Star Fox, Splatoon, Fire Emblem, etc. characters in Mario Kart.

 

[UNCgolf]

Not true of Kart. That’s true of Smash Brothers, but Kart has traditionally exclusively included characters that originated from the Mario franchise. The very, very minor exception to this is that Link and two Animal Crossing characters were added as part of what was originally paid DLC for the 8th entry in the series, but you won’t find Kirby, Metroid, F-Zero, Star Fox, Splatoon, Fire Emblem, etc. characters in Mario Kart.

I was thinking of Link being in the most recent title, but you're right, it is generally Mario characters overall.

That wasn't even the point I originally wanted to make, though, so I shouldn't have mentioned that. It's that people really enjoy the gameplay of Mario Kart more than the characters themselves. It's a bit like a theme park attraction in that way. Not that the Mario IP doesn't help, but it's kind of its own thing.

The other thing is that there were a bunch of Switch bundles that came with Mario Kart (which were sometimes the only Switch people could find to buy), and that skews the sales figures. Mario Kart 8 was going to be incredibly successful regardless, and it's not the same thing as Super Mario Bros. being packaged with NES and skewing those sales figures tremendously, but it does have an effect.

EDIT: Apparently it was bundled with the Wii U sometimes too.

 

[James Alucobond]

Sure, sure! I wasn't really trying to argue against the idea that Harry Potter has more cultural cachet either, just pointing out that I don't really think you can use game sales of a single entry in a genre-spanning series as a point of comparison against book sales. Mario is honestly pretty unique in the game space as well; other consoles have generally dropped mascots and don't have stables of "repeatable" characters in general.

EDIT: With regard to your edit about WiiU, I think Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe are generally counted as separate SKUs when tallying sales, but I could be mistaken.

 

[UNCgolf]

Sure, sure! I wasn't really trying to argue against the idea that Harry Potter has more cultural cachet either, just pointing out that I don't really think you can use game sales of a single entry in a genre-spanning series as a point of comparison against book sales. Mario is honestly pretty unique in the game space as well; other consoles have generally dropped mascots and don't have stables of "repeatable" characters in general.

I don't think a single entry is the best comparison either, but I do think it's better than trying to compare in the aggregate which creates all sorts of problems. That's also why I brought in movie ticket sales, since the HP movies were also selling 4-5x as many tickets as an average Mario game. There is of course an issue with people going to see it more than once, but I think that's a small percentage of total sales, and you then also have to factor in all the people who saw it later via rentals, home purchases, streaming, or even on cable.

You're right that Mario is different from basically any other video game entity in the way he (and/or other characters from his games) are used across genres. If Nintendo feels like making a game that doesn't fit into one of their other more specific IPs, they'll just connect it to Mario in some way.

EDIT: I think you're right re: your edit. Looks like Deluxe is a separate SKU.

 

[brb1006]

So about The Theater.

 

[bhg469]

So about The Theater.

There is a theater show in a theme park in Orlando that impressed the hell out of me... I hope that's the the bar that has been set.

 

[MatheusPG]

Build the theater with a good princess and the Frog show, keep Splash Mountain intact (with fixed effects) and that will not only greatly add capacity, but solve a big discussion and something really divisive, while at the same time making the Magic Kingdom experience even better.

 

[LittleBuford]

As far as a recognizable characters?? Mario is beyond Mickey Mouse at this point.. there isn't a comparison.

I’m not wading into the Disney vs. Universal debate, but do you really think that Mario is a more recognisable character than Mickey Mouse?! I’m kind of stunned by that claim.

 

[nickys]

From the article on this...

"I’m told that internal polling and temperature checks have determined that the Splash Mountain removal for Tiana’s Bayou Adventure is no longer expected to be a major boost for the park"

Would even those most incompetent management think for a second that the re-theme would give the park a "major boost"?

Maybe they’re even more incompetent than we give them credit for?

If that’s even possible at this point.

 

[danlb_2000]

I’m not wading into the Disney vs. Universal debate, but do you really think that Mario is a more recognisable character than Mickey Mouse?! I’m kind of stunned by that claim.

I would say that Mickey is a more recognizable character, but I think a "mario land" would draw a lot more people then a "Mickey land"

 

[bhg469]

I would say that Mickey is a more recognizable character, but I think a "mario land" would draw a lot more people then a "Mickey land"

I've got that dude blocked so I cannot reply but Mario, in 2022 is absolutely more relevant and recognizable to more people on the planet.

 

[Dranth]

I've got that dude blocked so I cannot reply but Mario, in 2022 is absolutely more relevant and recognizable to more people on the planet.

I doubt this for two reasons.

First, the second half of Gen X is where people started growing up with Mario so you have a rather large chunk of the population that does not have much direct interaction with the character. I would be willing to bet that the older groups mostly recognizes Mickey and it would be hit or miss on Mario whereas the younger groups would recognize both pretty equally.

Second, video games just don’t have the penetration that other media does. For example, Nintendo has sold something like 107 million Switch consoles. Assuming each console is shared amongst a group of 6 (some mix of friends/family) you are looking at something like 8% of the entire world’s population being able to play a current Nintendo game. Heck, double that to 16% to account for people who just have older systems and you are still talking about 80%+ of the world who would mostly just have second hand knowledge of the character.

Long term it will absolutely switch to Mario being more recognizable as more generations are exposed and grow older unless Disney does something with Mickey to put him back in the spotlight.

All that aside, I really do hope Universal nails it with EU. Regardless of the IP, they just need to make some fun rides and do a good job with whatever theming they are going with. Nothing but good can come out of that for theme park fans.

 

[The Great Gonzo]

I don't need a new theater, just give me some back corridors like over in DLP.

 

[The Great Gonzo]

There's no way Mario is more recognizable than Mickey Mouse. Mickey has been the figurehead for the Disney company since 1928.

 

[LittleBuford]

I would say that Mickey is a more recognizable character, but I think a "mario land" would draw a lot more people then a "Mickey land"

I disagree, but at least that’s a more reasonable claim!

 

[LittleBuford]

Long term it will absolutely switch to Mario being more recognizable as more generations are exposed and grow older unless Disney does something with Mickey to put him back in the spotlight.

Is he ever out of the spotlight?! If you’re a child growing up pretty much anywhere in the world, you will be exposed to Mickey Mouse before long. He’s among the most iconic and ubiquitous characters of any genre out there.