yodathefrog
Member
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New pirates concept art!
- Thread starter T-1MILLION
- Start date
HandyAndy
Member
Totally agree, Sparrow is an awesome character,and hopefully (as long as it is done by the imagineers) the Davey Jones projections should be pretty well done!SirGoofy said:
Btw, am I the only one dissapointed that the Black Pearl won't be making an appearance. No matter how much i adore the Wicked Wench, I think the Black Pearl is the most awesome ships I've ever seen lol!
artvandelay
Well-Known Member
In addition to the characters from the movie POTC, WDI is adding Capt. Feathersword (from the Wiggles), Willie Stargell and Dave Parker to the ride.:animwink:
artvandelay
Well-Known Member
kaos said:
And don't forget Ralph Kiner!
CHAPPS
Account Suspended
I think these changes look great and I can't wait to ride it! I understand those who may be concerned, because it is probably the most classic Disney attraction ever, perhaps to the point of being almost sacred (relatively speaking anyway). Given that scenario, I think the Imagineers appear to have done a superb job of preserving the integrity of this beloved attraction, while giving it the updates it deserves. As far as the concern that was expressed about the changes ruining the storyline, I don't see that at all. In fact, I actually see it as a win/win. If you have seen the Pirates movies, then it will be cool to see some of the characters inhabiting the attraction. If you have not seen them, then I think these new characters will essentially just be additional anonymous pirates. I don't think it ruins the story in the least.
Of course, I say all this having not yet experienced the attraction with the updates. But if the concept art is a true reflection, then I feel pretty confident that I'll be happy with the changes.
Of course, I say all this having not yet experienced the attraction with the updates. But if the concept art is a true reflection, then I feel pretty confident that I'll be happy with the changes.
This is where I disagree with you. And I know I am of the minority on this. It is NOT change that I am against. I am against BAD change - change that undoes the character of a ride. NOw in this case I am not sure how much this will be - it could end up being so subtle that it doesn't really do what it is meant to.
By generational thing, what I mean is this (and yes, this is an old fart way of thinking): young people today have a different way of interacting with media, and perhaps the world around them. Disney rides are, in essence, a form of media - something more than a movie - an experience. Today, people seem to be in the mode of simply sitting back and observing. They respond to physical stimulus - movement, light effects, noises. They passively watch a scene - they are not taught? Exposed to? using their imagination. SO in this case - they are looking for an association - they saw the movie - now they are looking for a 3 dimensional world of that movie.
I grew up at a time when we had to use our imaginations more. When we (being the older generation) went on a ride, we were not simply watching a scene - we were involved in it. I say our memories, because by going on a ride such as this, we were bringing back our memories of playing pirates as kids. Some of us remember being a pirate, some of us the English captain. We all develo(ed) a different role for ourselves in that ride. When Jack Sparrow is put in there - that dimension is removed. We are now watching the story of Jack Sparrow, not living the story of being a pirate.
That is what separated a ride from a simple 3 dimensional movie. In a movie, the storyline, the plot - that is all created already for you. In a ride, that is the element that you yourself create. It's a dimension that you can travel in that is simply unavailable in a film. Unfortunately they got caught up in the need for a story line in everything, that they suddenly started putting in too much structure and lost that dimension of imagination.
How badly does it happen in Pirates? I don't know. If it does take away much, then ultimately it hasn't really succeded in creating that story line. Not everything is going to be a success.
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
Why does the addition of Sparrow remove the capability to imagine being a pirate. There's absolutely no difference in seeing hairy legs and Sparrow on the ride. Each has a story. Now, it just becomes a bigger story with more content availabe to use in our imagination.cloudboy said:
I think your post is a little naive and, in fact, quite condescending. You think that just because it's not the old way, it must not be as good. I find that form of though lacking substance. There's absolutely no way you can say this will be a BAD change without seeing the attraction and then it will be subjective. Based on what you just posted, that subjective opinion is biased by a view point of guests that I think is mistaken.
cloudboy said:
Thank you! I feel the same way. I am also in the minority. Change is good. Seriously though, why change a story element that Walt oversaw himself? I have been saying to myself it just seems now the focus of the ride will all be on one pirate ""Sparrow of the Carbbean"" is what it is seeming to become to me. This is the first attraction I have ever heard of imagineers reffer to it as "going with a huge franchise!" That upset me when I heard that. I would like to say I have faith in the imagineers not to spoil the Nostolgia of the attraction but when you take some characters out and put different ones in that spoils(and dates it in my opinion) instantly. It really destroys to me the feeling of someone's children experiancing the same thing when they were young, it seems imagination is sort of decreasing. Now we need the help of movie tie-ins to help the ride.
-Preston
CaptainMichael
Well-Known Member
It is called "plussing". Walt was all for change. Many people seem to forget that!T-1MILLION said:
STR8FAN2005 said:
Making the experiance better not change. If it were more for change. Then it would be called "CHANGE IT"
Walt was happy with good change...this to me does not seem like a good change.
I never remember walt having a story change in an attraction. Those things have taken place over after the time of his passing.
That is just me, never mind.
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
T-1MILLION said:
I believe the highlighted section above is the reason you're fighting an uphill battle here. Do you honestly think the millions of people that visit MK see this update as a major problem or even care for that matter?
I have a feeling that it will rejuvenate PotC and entertain a lot of people. Even those that feel it's no longer a decent attraction or they've seen it a dozen times will look at it in a new light and maybe will want to experience it another dozen times.
I think a lot of people here on the boards tend to forget that the majority of guests are not Disneyphiles and are just there to be entertained and enjoy their visit. They are not worrying about a change... just whether or not they feel they get their money's worth. If nothing changes, then why keep spending money to go back and if the attraction seems antiquated then there's less pull to the new guests to visit in the first place.
The parks must continue to evolve to stay relevent to the consumer. If they are allowed to stagnate, they will not prosper and could ultimately fail.
Like I said, the difference is that todays generation simply does not see things the same way as we did. As far as they are concerned, we are simply against change, because they don't understand whywe liked the old way better. "plussing" is not the same as franchising or story redirection, and that is what is happening here. Although not necessarily in a big way, it is a symbol of a change in, well, something beyond storytelling, something approaching how we experience the story. Perhaps no one nowadays can understand that old way of seeing things, they simply have never had that experience in the first place.
Then again, perhaps this is why some many people claim Disney is for kids and not for them.
Then again, perhaps this is why some many people claim Disney is for kids and not for them.
shaelyn
New Member
I actually agree with cloudboy & T-1Million on this. While I love the POTC movie(s, hopefully), I love the attraction as well. Soemthing that I always loved about the ride was the way it was told about the PIRATES, not the townspeople. It was as if you were in on the joke, a part of the pirate crew. And yeah, I guess with the addition of Jack that's still possible, but at the same time it takes the rider out of the action and plops them squarely in the audience.
I remember when I heard that they changed DL's Swiss Family Treehouse into Tarzan's Treehouse, and I remember thinking "wow, what a change." It's not JUST that it's a cheap way to throw in a character and maybe sell some more overpriced character-themed merchandise, it's also removing the interaction. Instead of being part of the Robinson family, you're seeing Tarzan's house, with him still in it. Instead of being a pirate and feeling immersed, you're watching Jack again, just as an extension of the movie.
I remember when I heard that they changed DL's Swiss Family Treehouse into Tarzan's Treehouse, and I remember thinking "wow, what a change." It's not JUST that it's a cheap way to throw in a character and maybe sell some more overpriced character-themed merchandise, it's also removing the interaction. Instead of being part of the Robinson family, you're seeing Tarzan's house, with him still in it. Instead of being a pirate and feeling immersed, you're watching Jack again, just as an extension of the movie.
SirGoofy
Member
shaelyn said:
I can see where you're coming from, but I gotta disagree. To me, it seems like you still will be part of that pirate gang that attacks an unsuspecting town, but you'll be part of Cap'n Jack's crew. You'll know that he is after this treasure, you'll be in on the joke when he eludes Brabossa, and you'll be in on the treasure when he finds it. I see it as a twist on the old story rather than making the rider a spectator.
**Long Post - Read at your Own Peril!**
Rides are a medium. By medium, I mean TV, radio, books – anything that conveys information or an idea or a story. I think rides, particularly dark rides Disney style, are a medium all unto themselves. Some media are considered hot – books and radio fall into this category. These media only give you part of the whole picture – they rely on the receiver (I will use the term viewer from now on) to actively participate to get the full effect of the story. This means the listener/viewer has to engage their imagination. Cold media are those that tend to give you a full experience. They include TV and Movies. In these you are not required to engage your imagination to get the full story. They rely on reactions to create emotional effect.
The early Disney dark rides were a warm medium. While they had a loose storyline, it was not very strong. Instead, you were placed in an environment or situation. You were given scenes, and even a few guide points along the way. But ultimately you had to use your imagination to bring it all together. You took previous ideas, inspirations, and experiences, combined them with this new environment, and came up with you own experience. Ultimately, this fed back into your collection of inspirations.
Then, Disney created new dark rides. Unlike the old rides, these rides became all about the story line. The story line was structured – you no longer had to engage your imagination to create an experience out of it. They became cold media – best enjoyed by sitting back and simply watching and listening. To make up for this, they started including better special effects and sound effects, to create those sensory reactions to create emotional responses. Of course, this makes the emotional response of new rides higher than the response of old rides.
I am responding to the Pirates changes because I think they signify a fundamental change in the nature of his dark ride, as well as dark rides in general. Pirates before these changes was a warm ride – it created an environment, gave you some guide posts and a fairly smooth flow of scenes, but ultimately engaged the rider in imagining they were part of the action. They felt like they were making a choice (whether or not they really were) as to what happened next, where to go, what to do. While it is a simple addition, the addition of the Sparrow character into the scenes changes the very nature of the ride – what expectations the rider enters with. Instead of entering with the idea that they are going on a pirate adventure, drawing on all their previous inspirations regarding pirates, they are now following the Jack Sparrow story. They are now engaged in remembering the story line of the movie, which they ultimately compare to the ride, just as one compares a book to a movie. They are no longer engaging all their previous pirate inspirations.
It’s a bit like Legos. Legos used to come in boxes of basic shapes. There were no specialized parts – they were pretty generic. Things you built with them didn’t look too realistic. Yet they encouraged creativity – the options were endless. Now Legos come in sets that are themed. They look much more impressive, but they are much more limited in how you put them together. You are structured. I think people today are so used to be structured, that they automatically assume that to be good, you need that structure. They haven’t actually learned to use their previous imagination to engage in a ride, and so they feel distanced from it. While those people who have learned to do that, feel that they are being too limited, and can’t enjoy the ride because they can’t engage it in their own terms.
One question is: is this responding to new audiences, or is this just narrowing down the audience that already exists. An oft-repeated topic is how people’s friends and family fail to understand their fascination with Disney, consider Disney childish, or just plain can’t seem to see Disney in a positive shining light. I am asking if we are wrong by saying that these changes are responding to vistor’s expectations. Are we not simply taking those guests who visit now, and focusing only on that group which responds to rides that way? Are we not actually pushing other people away to focus on this narrower target audience?
*Sorry for being so windy*
Rides are a medium. By medium, I mean TV, radio, books – anything that conveys information or an idea or a story. I think rides, particularly dark rides Disney style, are a medium all unto themselves. Some media are considered hot – books and radio fall into this category. These media only give you part of the whole picture – they rely on the receiver (I will use the term viewer from now on) to actively participate to get the full effect of the story. This means the listener/viewer has to engage their imagination. Cold media are those that tend to give you a full experience. They include TV and Movies. In these you are not required to engage your imagination to get the full story. They rely on reactions to create emotional effect.
The early Disney dark rides were a warm medium. While they had a loose storyline, it was not very strong. Instead, you were placed in an environment or situation. You were given scenes, and even a few guide points along the way. But ultimately you had to use your imagination to bring it all together. You took previous ideas, inspirations, and experiences, combined them with this new environment, and came up with you own experience. Ultimately, this fed back into your collection of inspirations.
Then, Disney created new dark rides. Unlike the old rides, these rides became all about the story line. The story line was structured – you no longer had to engage your imagination to create an experience out of it. They became cold media – best enjoyed by sitting back and simply watching and listening. To make up for this, they started including better special effects and sound effects, to create those sensory reactions to create emotional responses. Of course, this makes the emotional response of new rides higher than the response of old rides.
I am responding to the Pirates changes because I think they signify a fundamental change in the nature of his dark ride, as well as dark rides in general. Pirates before these changes was a warm ride – it created an environment, gave you some guide posts and a fairly smooth flow of scenes, but ultimately engaged the rider in imagining they were part of the action. They felt like they were making a choice (whether or not they really were) as to what happened next, where to go, what to do. While it is a simple addition, the addition of the Sparrow character into the scenes changes the very nature of the ride – what expectations the rider enters with. Instead of entering with the idea that they are going on a pirate adventure, drawing on all their previous inspirations regarding pirates, they are now following the Jack Sparrow story. They are now engaged in remembering the story line of the movie, which they ultimately compare to the ride, just as one compares a book to a movie. They are no longer engaging all their previous pirate inspirations.
It’s a bit like Legos. Legos used to come in boxes of basic shapes. There were no specialized parts – they were pretty generic. Things you built with them didn’t look too realistic. Yet they encouraged creativity – the options were endless. Now Legos come in sets that are themed. They look much more impressive, but they are much more limited in how you put them together. You are structured. I think people today are so used to be structured, that they automatically assume that to be good, you need that structure. They haven’t actually learned to use their previous imagination to engage in a ride, and so they feel distanced from it. While those people who have learned to do that, feel that they are being too limited, and can’t enjoy the ride because they can’t engage it in their own terms.
One question is: is this responding to new audiences, or is this just narrowing down the audience that already exists. An oft-repeated topic is how people’s friends and family fail to understand their fascination with Disney, consider Disney childish, or just plain can’t seem to see Disney in a positive shining light. I am asking if we are wrong by saying that these changes are responding to vistor’s expectations. Are we not simply taking those guests who visit now, and focusing only on that group which responds to rides that way? Are we not actually pushing other people away to focus on this narrower target audience?
*Sorry for being so windy*