News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[Daveeeeed]

I love gondolas!

 

[roj2323]

I really don't understand the blind love for the monorail. It isn't an efficient system for WDW's guest flow. .

That's kind of the point. The monorail staggers the arrival of guests at the park entry gates so there shouldn't ever be a huge backup of people at the turnstiles. That said, the guests of today are not that of the guests of the 1970's. Society has become more greedy and less polite and the cost of admission has pushed people into arriving before the gates open just so they "get their moneys worth". When the park first opened there was far less emphasis on arriving at or just before park opening. I also have to add that double wide SUV like strollers didn't exist and strollers in general were less common in the park. Anyway you are correct that the Monorail isn't currently an efficient system but it's not because of the design but rather a change in the users habits.

 

[jt04]

That's kind of the point. The monorail staggers the arrival of guests at the park entry gates so there shouldn't ever be a huge backup of people at the turnstiles. That said, the guests of today are not that of the guests of the 1970's. Society has become more greedy and less polite and the cost of admission has pushed people into arriving before the gates open just so they "get their moneys worth". When the park first opened there was far less emphasis on arriving at or just before park opening. I also have to add that double wide SUV like strollers didn't exist and strollers in general were less common in the park. Anyway you are correct that the Monorail isn't currently an efficient system but it's not because of the design but rather a change in the users habits.

Even more reason to make the monorail more exclusive. At least the resort line should be.

 

[Daveeeeed]

Even more reason to make the monorail more exclusive. At least the resort line should be.

I wouldn't mind that. Actually run the Express Line more hours, and the resort line for the resort guests just like old times.

 

[jt04]

I wouldn't mind that. Actually run the Express Line more hours, and the resort line for the resort guests just like old times.

And those with dinner reservation. Great use for magicbands too. And to add to that, they could make the resort monorails have better interiors. That would drive more traffic to the restaurants. Win win.

 

[jt04]

Indiana Jones Stunt Show will be moving to the top of the gondolas.

Need a new show for the theater then. Hmmmm.

 

[MisterPenguin]

That's kind of the point. The monorail staggers the arrival of guests at the park entry gates so there shouldn't ever be a huge backup of people at the turnstiles. That said, the guests of today are not that of the guests of the 1970's. Society has become more greedy and less polite and the cost of admission has pushed people into arriving before the gates open just so they "get their moneys worth". When the park first opened there was far less emphasis on arriving at or just before park opening. I also have to add that double wide SUV like strollers didn't exist and strollers in general were less common in the park. Anyway you are correct that the Monorail isn't currently an efficient system but it's not because of the design but rather a change in the users habits.

Isn't a big part of the problem is the success of the MK? What has changed most about the guests is the growth of the sheer number of them.

A transportation system works great right up the point of its maximum capacity. Until it reaches that point, it works just great whether it's 5% full or 99% full. But once you get to 101% full, then things back up, and continue to back up with no relief until the sheer number of people using it starts to drop under 100% capacity again.

When a park has double digit growth year after year for decades... it will find and supersede capacity.

 

[roj2323]

Isn't a big part of the problem is the success of the MK? What has changed most about the guests is the growth of the sheer number of them.

A transportation system works great right up the point of its maximum capacity. Until it reaches that point, it works just great whether it's 5% full or 99% full. But once you get to 101% full, then things back up, and continue to back up with no relief until the sheer number of people using it starts to drop under 100% capacity again.

When a park has double digit growth year after year for decades... it will find and supersede capacity.

Yep and then the question becomes how do you increase capacity on a system that's hard planned. The only changes TDO can really make are to make the monorails faster or increase guest capacity. They tried increasing speed with the implementation of the Automation system so now we have to wait for remodeled/ new monorails with increased capacity which means no center seats and lowered doorways to eliminate the step up for ADA / ECV guests.

 

[DisneyDaver]

There are hundreds of gallons of Kool-Aid consumed by both sides of this argument. It's a shame that none of us can see that in ourselves. If someone disagrees with someone else they are accused of drinking the Kool-Aid, yet, both sides are seeing only their one flavor of Kool-Aid. On one side the belief is that this is still 1955 and that the things that Walt did as a pioneer in the world of theme parks are still possible today and will have the same results. All pixie dust mentality that "if you build it they will come". The thing is that apparently even if you don't build it they will come now because it is an entity that has built a reputation around quality. That is the one that thinks that a company maximizing profits for a luxury item are robber barons (which by the way isn't what that phrase means). For one thing it is not dishonest to charge more for a non-life supporting venture then for a necessity of life.

The other side sees only the basic mandate of any company and that is profit. To say it isn't mandated when there are millions of shareholders that are demanding and expecting a return on their investment is as delusional as many of the Disney fantasies created. To say that they have the money is the same as (on a much smaller scale) having $10.00 in your wallet and than a person comes up to you and says... I want your $10.00 because I know you have it, so just give it to me. That is Kool-Aid as well.

I don't remember anyone saying that every decision that Disney has made is the correct one. Hell, even Walt didn't get everything right. But, as I sit at my desk typing this I at least am able to admit that I do not know the inner workings of a company the size of Disney, it's obligations, it's long range goals or even the internal knowledge the drives whatever decision that they make. The oversimplification of the situation is alarming. Just a guess here, but, if any individual that operates a company the size of Disney and is juggling the different aspects of running that company will not be sitting here typing on a Disney Fan Board. In short we don't have a clue about how it works and why.

The fact that only withholding money from a company that is doing so much wrong is going to have a factor in it's change. As long as the armored car that brings the money to the bank is full, all advice will fall on deaf ears. With or without the Kool-Aid. When it gets to the point that people do not realize the individual return on their investment then Disney will have a reason to alter their behavior. As long as they are taking in millions a day, it just ain't gonna happen. Those of us that feel they are being cheated might want to find a different hobby.

Very well said!

 

[Kamikaze]

That's kind of the point. The monorail staggers the arrival of guests at the park entry gates so there shouldn't ever be a huge backup of people at the turnstiles. That said, the guests of today are not that of the guests of the 1970's. Society has become more greedy and less polite and the cost of admission has pushed people into arriving before the gates open just so they "get their moneys worth". When the park first opened there was far less emphasis on arriving at or just before park opening. I also have to add that double wide SUV like strollers didn't exist and strollers in general were less common in the park. Anyway you are correct that the Monorail isn't currently an efficient system but it's not because of the design but rather a change in the users habits.

Again, none of this matters. If you have to move 10 guests an hour and the system top capacity is 9, the system cannot do what it needs to do. WDW needs either flexibility or continuous service. A fixed train system provides neither.

 

[rushtest4echo]

Yep and then the question becomes how do you increase capacity on a system that's hard planned. The only changes TDO can really make are to make the monorails faster or increase guest capacity. They tried increasing speed with the implementation of the Automation system so now we have to wait for remodeled/ new monorails with increased capacity which means no center seats and lowered doorways to eliminate the step up for ADA / ECV guests.

Lowered doorways would be next to impossible. There's only about an inch or two in height between the rail and the station floor. Raising the station floor is the only answer in this case. Unfortunately that wouldn't solve the issue either, as the suspension is squishy enough to allow the cars an inch of play side to side, so there will be a small "gap" like many public transit systems which would still be problematic.

Speed isn't really the limiting factor for why the monorails are such a pain in the butt most of the time. It's really the load/dispatch interval and their reluctance to have enough trains online for the crushes at opening/closing time at MK and EPCOT. But that's really only 10% of the day. During the rest of the day, everything about the monorails currently is to maintain cost efficiencies over operational effeincies. This means that they commonly run 2 or 3 trains on the express beam when they should be running 4 or 5. It means the EPCOT beam commonly has 2 trains which results in a 10-15 minute gap between dispatches. Then there's the downtime that come from running the ancient/decrepit system. One train has a problem- even like a stuck door? Stop everything on that line for at least 10-15 minutes. The line itself has a problem? Shut it down for most of the afternoon and hope it comes back online before pyro! Need to pull a train? Pause everything for 10 minutes. And during those 10 minutes, a thousand more people have lined up and it will take 20 minutes to get them all through since you just pulled 1 of the 3 online trains.

If they wanted, they could actually turn the monorails into an efficient, quick, modern system but it would cost a fortune and provide almost no benefit to people other than arriving at EPCOT/MK 5 to 10 minutes earlier. The hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to redo every platform, to implement true automation (complete with a real roving block system similar to Test Track), acquire new trains and account for the inevitable clearance issues that will come with the likely larger trains. It would take years and it would severely tax the most crowded theme park on earth's ability to move people (moreso than already exists). I don't know what they'd do to keep people moving if the Monorail truly received the multi-year downtime/overhaul that it needs.

 

[Creathir]

Again, none of this matters. If you have to move 10 guests an hour and the system top capacity is 9, the system cannot do what it needs to do. WDW needs either flexibility or continuous service. A fixed train system provides neither.

By increasing speed or the frequency of trains you increase the capacity.

The automation project accomplishes both of those objectives.

The monorail is a very effective means of moving folks around Bay Lake. A train is perfect for this situation, lots of folks needing to be staggered into the front of the park in a quick fashion while increasing excitement for the day to come along the entire journey to that land of fantasy.

As much as the monorail hating club, mostly born out of that ridiculous Simpsons episode, would like to see the death of the monorail, it's not going anywhere.

It is an amazing technology which can be improved and obviously modernized. The likely next step is full autonomy and a restructuring of the cars themselves to accommodate a level surface for quicker loading/unloading.

A system like a gondola would be impractical for Bay Lake.

1. Can't go directly over the lake, it kills the sightline of the money shot for the WDW, swooping in from the lake and down Main Street towards the castle.

2. It's not practical when you have numerous stops which are need along the journey. There are 3 other stations besides TTC and MK. If a system went around Bay Lake it would need to stop at all 3 of these points as well. Your 5 minute monorail journey becomes an hour+ as you wait to transfer at each station, and the poor suckers who stay at GF are screwed because no gondolas are ever empty on the peak traffic times.

Like it or not, the monorail is a terrific technology for this particular job.

 

[truecoat]

I will take Richard Burton and Clint Eastwood fighting Nazis on Gondola cabins anyday!

"Where Eagles Dare"

Just wait until Kingsman:The Golden Circle comes out. Go to the 1:17 mark.

 

[zakattack99]

Just wait until Kingsman:The Golden Circle comes out. Go to the 1:17 mark.

YESSSSSSS!!!!! VERY EXCITED FOR THIS!!!... and gondolas... BUT YES KINGS MEN!!!!

 

[Figment2005]

It really wouldn't be worth it is the problem. Two value resorts and a moderate getting monorail service before any more expensive ones (Wilderness Lodge would be the cheapest to get to and even that's a fever dream) would be real weird. The necessary stuff to expand the line and service the resorts would be laughably high.

If they don't do a line to those resorts all this would do is connect Epcot to Hollywood Studios, which the boats and buses already do. No need to drop millions to help people get dinner at Epcot faster.

It'd be really awesome if everything across WDW was connected by monorail, but it doesn't make sense to do it.

With well placed stations the majority of the resorts could have monorail access. Not always right out the front door, but maybe a short walk to reach a station. All while connecting the remaining parks and springs.

 

[MisterPenguin]

while increasing excitement for the day

While neat, it also needs to be practical first and foremost. If it fails for transportation, then it fails. Period. Whatever wow factor it has becomes irrelevant if it doesn't do its job.

As much as the monorail hating club, mostly born out of that ridiculous Simpsons episode, would like to see the death of the monorail, it's not going anywhere.

Wow. It's is the rare marriage of a straw man and ad hominem! First of all, no one is 'hating' on the monorail by pointing out its inefficiencies. And noting its inefficiencies isn't because of a Simpsons Episode.

Your argument has officially become ridiculous. You're the one who is a super fan of the monorail because you're romanticizing it, and then you characterize everyone who disagrees as mindless puppets of a Simpsons Episode.

Nice.

A system like a gondola would be impractical for Bay Lake.

1. Can't go directly over the lake,

I bet people said that a gondola couldn't go over the East River, too.

 

[Figment2005]

I actually think the monorails are being kept in better condition, at least on the inside. I do notice from trip reports that they seem to be having a lot of trouble and downtime (be it planned or not, it still doesn't look good), but I was on a few a few weeks ago and I promise you on one the air actually worked, it was clean and the carpeting on the walls had been changed. I also smelled no odor. I was pleasantly surprised. Maybe not all of them are great inside but there has been an improvement there.

Now back to the Gondolas ...

Remember 2 months ago a new operations system, semi automated, was activated with the monorails. They are still in the adjustment phase with bugs still being found, speed zones needing to be adjusted, etc. A lot of effort is also going into bringing the trains back up to the standard they should have been all along. Painting is being done, and from what I understand the interiors are next on the list once the painting process is complete.

I know this part doesn't directly correspond to your post, but I wanted to bring it up anyway. With 4 trains operating on the express there is absolutely nothing on property with even close to the same throughput. With that in mind, even with the massive extended queue in use, the average wait will still be less than 15 minutes from entering to boarding. If they were to install an expansion it would definitely be very expensive, but the overall flow of the entire property would be changed, and in my opinion, for the best. Fewer busses on the roads means less traffic congestion. Need to keep in mind that the busses generally operate 10 mph under the speed limit which in its own right causes problems for the other vehicles just trying to do the speed limit.

Also, with new technology, efficiency with regards to natural resources is much greater with the monorail. Since it operates on electricity the only issue is how that power is generated at the plant, and how that electricity is used by the train. Swapping over to an AC system would greatly increase efficiency and reduce wasted energy. Big steps, but if completed would be extremely effective at reducing the carbon footprint of the property.

Okay, I'm done.

 

[Figment2005]

Lowered doorways would be next to impossible. There's only about an inch or two in height between the rail and the station floor. Raising the station floor is the only answer in this case. Unfortunately that wouldn't solve the issue either, as the suspension is squishy enough to allow the cars an inch of play side to side, so there will be a small "gap" like many public transit systems which would still be problematic.

Speed isn't really the limiting factor for why the monorails are such a pain in the butt most of the time. It's really the load/dispatch interval and their reluctance to have enough trains online for the crushes at opening/closing time at MK and EPCOT. But that's really only 10% of the day. During the rest of the day, everything about the monorails currently is to maintain cost efficiencies over operational effeincies. This means that they commonly run 2 or 3 trains on the express beam when they should be running 4 or 5. It means the EPCOT beam commonly has 2 trains which results in a 10-15 minute gap between dispatches. Then there's the downtime that come from running the ancient/decrepit system. One train has a problem- even like a stuck door? Stop everything on that line for at least 10-15 minutes. The line itself has a problem? Shut it down for most of the afternoon and hope it comes back online before pyro! Need to pull a train? Pause everything for 10 minutes. And during those 10 minutes, a thousand more people have lined up and it will take 20 minutes to get them all through since you just pulled 1 of the 3 online trains.

If they wanted, they could actually turn the monorails into an efficient, quick, modern system but it would cost a fortune and provide almost no benefit to people other than arriving at EPCOT/MK 5 to 10 minutes earlier. The hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to redo every platform, to implement true automation (complete with a real roving block system similar to Test Track), acquire new trains and account for the inevitable clearance issues that will come with the likely larger trains. It would take years and it would severely tax the most crowded theme park on earth's ability to move people (moreso than already exists). I don't know what they'd do to keep people moving if the Monorail truly received the multi-year downtime/overhaul that it needs.

There is a lot at play that is outside of guest information. Having 4 trains on express and resorts, and 3 on Epcot would be optimal, but many times the shop needs to keep the trains for maintenance, or an unforseen issue arises during the opening process. With the new system adding and removing trains is much more efficient and impacts the guests much less, and will only get better as they tweak it. Where in the past swapping a train would add 10-15 minutes of wait time, now it can be done with less than a 5 minute impact.

 

[Kman101]

I'm very glad they're bringing them back up to the standards they should be. As I had said I noticed a big difference on the interior, I was very complimentary.

And to be fair, while you and I know why the monorail is down, to the average guest, it does look bad when they're not operational. Not saying I agree with any outrage but they're not going to know it's offline for a reason, and the castmembers don't really offer up anything but a shrug and point to the ferry boats, so maybe they should be more forthcoming with information.

And, again to be fair, they shouldn't take the monorail offline for the times that they do even for the work needed (WDW should pay them to work overnights, if possible but we know that won't happen). I know they have to do what they have to do but they're kind of you-know-what if they do and you-know-what if they don't. So I don't know what they could do. But I'm personally happy they're being worked on. But look at it from the average guests perspective and the resort guests perspective ... not saying it's the right perspective but all they're going to see is the monorail offline. It's all about show. And it's poor show, even for the right reasons.

 

[Figment2005]

I'm very glad they're bringing them back up to the standards they should be. As I had said I noticed a big difference on the interior, I was very complimentary.

And to be fair, while you and I know why the monorail is down, to the average guest, it does look bad when they're not operational. Not saying I agree with any outrage but they're not going to know it's offline for a reason, and the castmembers don't really offer up anything but a shrug and point to the ferry boats, so maybe they should be more forthcoming with information.

And, again to be fair, they shouldn't take the monorail offline for the times that they do even for the work needed (WDW should pay them to work overnights, if possible but we know that won't happen). I know they have to do what they have to do but they're kind of you-know-what if they do and you-know-what if they don't. So I don't know what they could do. But I'm personally happy they're being worked on. But look at it from the average guests perspective and the resort guests perspective ... not saying it's the right perspective but all they're going to see is the monorail offline. It's all about show. And it's poor show, even for the right reasons.

I completely agree with regards to the cast members passing on information to the guests. A lot of times it is just easier to explain they are not operational, and point the guests to the mode that will complete their trip. While the majority of the cast do know exactly what the problem is, if we were to try and explain it to the guests it would more than likely confuse them and make them even more frustrated. With regards to downtime, simple explanations are almost always the best method. As inconvenient it may be for the guests, remember that the cast would rather be operating instead of being yelled at, yes yelled at, by guests who may only be inconvenienced a mere 2 minutes by going to a bus or ferryboat.