News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[ford91exploder]

That's a fair response. And yes, I agree that you are correct the obligation is to maximize value, not profit directly as I incorrectly stated (though I disagree with your in your statement that maximum value is not tied to profit as I believe there is a connection).

My initial response was to the poster that in essence said WDW should build more monorails instead of the gondolas because WDW has loads of money. While I simplified things in my response to that poster, it was more out of frustration of posters/people who think that because WDW has money, WDW should spend that money on things customers (or WDW fans) want without regard to the cost/benefit to WDW or return on investment.

The great irony is WDW generates a huge cash flow even in its current state the problem is that the majority of the money is funneled to less successful areas of the Disney empire to prop them up instead of being reinvested in maintenance and expansion of the flagship property

 

[ford91exploder]

No, the primary ROI is the money that comes in to visit whatever the I is. Guest satisfaction doesn't have anything to do with it, because if they have already Returned, then the Investment is bringing that money in, regardless of what the satisfaction scores say.



The monorail is transportation. Cindy's Castle, Spaceship Earth, Mickey, those are the icons of the resort.

I really don't understand the blind love for the monorail. It isn't an efficient system for WDW's guest flow. Which is a large, spread out, amount of guests that also peak at two distinct periods per day. It works at MK because its a small system for the 3 resorts and point to point for TTC-MK. Even the Epcot loop is OK because its point to point, but its still not efficient for MK resorts to Epcot. It should not be expanded, because the costs far outweigh any benefits of instead investing in better, cheaper, more efficient systems. Not because of ROI, but because it simply doesn't do the job in the best way.

In the Monorail's current state I agree it's not an efficient mode of transit however when it was PROPERLY maintained it was very efficient at moving people

 

[networkpro]

The great irony is WDW generates a huge cash flow even in its current state the problem is that the majority of the money is funneled to less successful areas of the Disney empire to prop them up instead of being reinvested in maintenance and expansion of the flagship property

Oh I can hear the Disneyland sabers starting to rattle from upon far...

 

[Kamikaze]

In the Monorail's current state I agree it's not an efficient mode of transit however when it was PROPERLY maintained it was very efficient at moving people

No, it has not a single thing to do with upkeep. How does WDW (MK primarily, since thats where the monorail is) guest flow work?

• Tons of guests incoming during say 30 minutes to open to 2:30 after open. Ferries and monorail are usually overwhelmed at this point because you can't add capacity at a whim.
• During the day, much lower guest flow, most monorail and ferry departures are far, far below capacity. It isn't uncommon to see trains or ferries leave empty or nearly empty.
• Tons of guests outgoing from say 1 hr before close to 1 hr after. Ferries and monorail are usually overwhelmed at this point because you can't add capacity at a whim.

Thats why it isn't efficient, not because they smell bad or there is paint peeling.
With buses, you just have extra buses during open/close and less during the day. More efficient.
This gondola system runs constantly. Will there be lines? Sure. But it runs constantly, so its a flow. No need to add or subtract capacity because capacity is always coming. More efficient.

I'm not against them finding a better system to move guests. They do exist. It just isn't a monorail for WDW.

 

[Doug Means]

No, the primary ROI is the money that comes in to visit whatever the I is. Guest satisfaction doesn't have anything to do with it, because if they have already Returned, then the Investment is bringing that money in, regardless of what the satisfaction scores say.



The monorail is transportation. Cindy's Castle, Spaceship Earth, Mickey, those are the icons of the resort.

I really don't understand the blind love for the monorail. It isn't an efficient system for WDW's guest flow. Which is a large, spread out, amount of guests that also peak at two distinct periods per day. It works at MK because its a small system for the 3 resorts and point to point for TTC-MK. Even the Epcot loop is OK because its point to point, but its still not efficient for MK resorts to Epcot. It should not be expanded, because the costs far outweigh any benefits of instead investing in better, cheaper, more efficient systems. Not because of ROI, but because it simply doesn't do the job in the best way.

i think the blind love for the monorail, for me, comes from the following situations that i have had on it:
1st as a young kid with my parents as it was new and i thought it was sooo cool
2nd as my parents had gotten so much older and i was a young adult, what a great memory to return to with them.
3rd with my own young kids, to see how cool they thought it was, too
4th on another trip as my parents got to have a relaxing ride around with their grand children as part of the last times they saw each other
5th in every trip sense and in the future, we will ride them just because they are cool and something we do every trip

the cost of it all never even enter my mind in any of the situation...its just a great relaxing fun family time thing to do

 

[Kamikaze]

i think the blind love for the monorail, for me, comes from the following situations that i have had on it:
1st as a young kid with my parents as it was new and i thought it was sooo cool
2nd as my parents had gotten so much older and i was a young adult, what a great memory to return to with them.
3rd with my own young kids, to see how cool they thought it was, too
4th on another trip as my parents got to have a relaxing ride around with their grand children as part of the last times they saw each other
5th in every trip sense and in the future, we will ride them just because they are cool and something we do every trip

the cost of it all never even enter my mind in any of the situation...its just a great relaxing fun family time thing to do

Thats fine, but theres a distinct difference between having nostalgia for it and wanting to dump billions into an expansion for it.

 

[ford91exploder]

Oh I can hear the Disneyland sabers starting to rattle from upon far...

DL also does not get sufficient investment on the cash they generate either it goes to places like DLP which has NEVER showed a profit. SDL and HKDL not to mention the half billion flushed down the toilet on Maker Studios and Pewdiepie

 

[MisterPenguin]

Turn the Bay Lake monorail loops into a continuous omnimover!

 

[Doug Means]

Thats fine, but theres a distinct difference between having nostalgia for it and wanting to dump billions into an expansion for it.

i guess i don't care enough about what they dump millions into. its their business. i care about the memories I've made and am going to make. i think the monorail system is cool and a great part of the transportation system. a transportations system that needs to be always growing and updated. i feel like there will always be transportation issues because of an ever growing crowd. i like the monorail so more of it would be fine with me

 

[ford91exploder]

No, it has not a single thing to do with upkeep. How does WDW (MK primarily, since thats where the monorail is) guest flow work?

• Tons of guests incoming during say 30 minutes to open to 2:30 after open. Ferries and monorail are usually overwhelmed at this point because you can't add capacity at a whim.
• During the day, much lower guest flow, most monorail and ferry departures are far, far below capacity. It isn't uncommon to see trains or ferries leave empty or nearly empty.
• Tons of guests outgoing from say 1 hr before close to 1 hr after. Ferries and monorail are usually overwhelmed at this point because you can't add capacity at a whim.

Thats why it isn't efficient, not because they smell bad or there is paint peeling.
With buses, you just have extra buses during open/close and less during the day. More efficient.
This gondola system runs constantly. Will there be lines? Sure. But it runs constantly, so its a flow. No need to add or subtract capacity because capacity is always coming. More efficient.

I'm not against them finding a better system to move guests. They do exist. It just isn't a monorail for WDW.

I'm going to assume that you started visiting in the last 5-7 years and during that period monorail efficiency has been horrible at BEST.

Before that you had monorails running at least every 5-7 minutes on the express line and 10 on the resort line. The huge lines did not exist because schedule reliability was such that there was no need to fill every nook and cranny on the monorail. It came it stopped for 60 seconds or so for boarding and left so as not to hold up traffic on the beam. But another one was 5 minutes or so behind this one. Not like today when one can arrive in 30 seconds or 15 minutes

The key to efficiency in mass transit is schedule reliability PERIOD, Once the monorails had it, The Gondolas will have it for a while IF Disney maintains them to standard if not it will be the monorail situation all over again

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, the primary ROI is the money that comes in to visit whatever the I is. Guest satisfaction doesn't have anything to do with it, because if they have already Returned, then the Investment is bringing that money in, regardless of what the satisfaction scores say.

Wynn's Curse is that attractions no longer directly generate revenue. Guest surveys are part of determining if the attractions is indirectly generating revenue.

 

[Monorail_Red_77]

No, it has not a single thing to do with upkeep. How does WDW (MK primarily, since thats where the monorail is) guest flow work?

• Tons of guests incoming during say 30 minutes to open to 2:30 after open. Ferries and monorail are usually overwhelmed at this point because you can't add capacity at a whim.
• During the day, much lower guest flow, most monorail and ferry departures are far, far below capacity. It isn't uncommon to see trains or ferries leave empty or nearly empty.
• Tons of guests outgoing from say 1 hr before close to 1 hr after. Ferries and monorail are usually overwhelmed at this point because you can't add capacity at a whim.

Thats why it isn't efficient, not because they smell bad or there is paint peeling.
With buses, you just have extra buses during open/close and less during the day. More efficient.
This gondola system runs constantly. Will there be lines? Sure. But it runs constantly, so its a flow. No need to add or subtract capacity because capacity is always coming. More efficient.

I'm not against them finding a better system to move guests. They do exist. It just isn't a monorail for WDW.

As a side note. I was at MK this past Saturday 4/22. around 11am to 12pm it was so busy with incoming guest that traffic on World Drive was at a literal standstill from about Epcot Center Dr overpass to the TTC Toll Plaza. That short trip took me about 15 to 20 minutes to travel. Once at TTC things looked normal busy with big rope queues setup for monorails.
Only weird thing that I noticed different was that to improve efficiency, they shutdown the Ferry Boats and Express Monorail from MK to TTC. If you wanted to get back to TTC around lunch time you had to take the Resort Monorails. There was low return demand going back to TTC so it wasn't too bad with the lines heading back to TTC.

This made sense because they were eliminating the time it takes to board at MK and head back to TTC and unload guests. So they could pickup at TTC and drop off at MK then immediately turn around and do it again. Also a point to note, they were running the monorails tight together. When one monorail was loading at TTC the very next monorail was holding just outside the TTC Stations (not sure pylon #).

 

[Kamikaze]

I'm going to assume that you started visiting in the last 5-7 years and during that period monorail efficiency has been horrible at BEST.

Before that you had monorails running at least every 5-7 minutes on the express line and 10 on the resort line. The huge lines did not exist because schedule reliability was such that there was no need to fill every nook and cranny on the monorail. It came it stopped for 60 seconds or so for boarding and left so as not to hold up traffic on the beam. But another one was 5 minutes or so behind this one. Not like today when one can arrive in 30 seconds or 15 minutes

The key to efficiency in mass

You know what happens when you assume? I actually STOPPED visiting for most of that time. Was a frequent visitor before then. Much prefer DLR now.

Also, one post ago you were blaming upkeep. Now you're blaming efficiency? Regardless, it doesn't matter. On a closed system, there is always a point where you cannot add capacity or keep up with the amount of traffic. On a system like the WDW monorail, thats not that many trains.

PS: Its 'en masse'.

 

[Kamikaze]

Wynn's Curse is that attractions no longer directly generate revenue. Guest surveys are part of determining if the attractions is indirectly generating revenue.

Correct, but that has nothing to do with satisfaction.

If the guest is there to ride the 'Investment', then you got a RoI. Doesn't matter if they are satisfied or not.

 

[Goofyernmost]

spoken like a true Kool Aide drinker.. what ever Disney does is perfect.. and the best for them .. not the paying person.. but for them.. and that attitude alone is so ANTI -WALT..

There are hundreds of gallons of Kool-Aid consumed by both sides of this argument. It's a shame that none of us can see that in ourselves. If someone disagrees with someone else they are accused of drinking the Kool-Aid, yet, both sides are seeing only their one flavor of Kool-Aid. On one side the belief is that this is still 1955 and that the things that Walt did as a pioneer in the world of theme parks are still possible today and will have the same results. All pixie dust mentality that "if you build it they will come". The thing is that apparently even if you don't build it they will come now because it is an entity that has built a reputation around quality. That is the one that thinks that a company maximizing profits for a luxury item are robber barons (which by the way isn't what that phrase means). For one thing it is not dishonest to charge more for a non-life supporting venture then for a necessity of life.

The other side sees only the basic mandate of any company and that is profit. To say it isn't mandated when there are millions of shareholders that are demanding and expecting a return on their investment is as delusional as many of the Disney fantasies created. To say that they have the money is the same as (on a much smaller scale) having $10.00 in your wallet and than a person comes up to you and says... I want your $10.00 because I know you have it, so just give it to me. That is Kool-Aid as well.

I don't remember anyone saying that every decision that Disney has made is the correct one. Hell, even Walt didn't get everything right. But, as I sit at my desk typing this I at least am able to admit that I do not know the inner workings of a company the size of Disney, it's obligations, it's long range goals or even the internal knowledge the drives whatever decision that they make. The oversimplification of the situation is alarming. Just a guess here, but, if any individual that operates a company the size of Disney and is juggling the different aspects of running that company will not be sitting here typing on a Disney Fan Board. In short we don't have a clue about how it works and why.

The fact that only withholding money from a company that is doing so much wrong is going to have a factor in it's change. As long as the armored car that brings the money to the bank is full, all advice will fall on deaf ears. With or without the Kool-Aid. When it gets to the point that people do not realize the individual return on their investment then Disney will have a reason to alter their behavior. As long as they are taking in millions a day, it just ain't gonna happen. Those of us that feel they are being cheated might want to find a different hobby.

 

[peter11435]

Before that you had monorails running at least every 5-7 minutes on the express line and 10 on the resort line. The huge lines did not exist because schedule reliability was such that there was no need to fill every nook and cranny on the monorail. It came it stopped for 60 seconds or so for boarding and left so as not to hold up traffic on the beam. But another one was 5 minutes or so behind this one. Not like today when one can arrive in 30 seconds or 15 minutes

I'm sure you already know this but you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Kamikaze]

Turn the Bay Lake monorail loops into a continuous omnimover!

In actuality, that is the answer. And thats why the Progress City model has them.

 

[Wngo905]

Turn the Bay Lake monorail loops into a continuous omnimover!

Now that is an interesting suggestion....
(the following is armchair engineering) What would the cost and would it be possible to convert the MK/TTC (express) and the MK/CR/TTC/PV/GF (resort) monorail lines to something like the people mover (including canopy)? The cars would slow down when approaching the stations and link up together so there would be a continuous supply of cars at a station slowly moving for embarking and debarking. Then outside of each station the cars would separate and go faster speeds. I can imagine it would probably be a lengthy and potentially costly conversion but the guest satisfaction rate, lines at all stations and maintenance could offset.

Now, yes, the ROI is nil since Disney does not profit from BL monorail loops, plus the evac procedures with that many cars would most likely throw any possibility of this type of system into the NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS category

 

[Steve_p]

Turn the Bay Lake monorail loops into a continuous omnimover!

Like a Gondola perhaps!
hehe

 

[Kamikaze]

Like a Gondola perhaps!
hehe

Cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient than just about any other alternative system.