jaklgreen
Well-Known Member
What other option is there if getting in and out of the line does not work for them?
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New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024
- Thread starter AEfx
- Start date
Chi84
Premium Member
From the reports I’ve seen on other sites, it looks like people (disabled and non disabled) are getting in and out of lines when they need to do so.
I’m sure that accommodation is not without some difficulty or discomfort, but it’s what is being offered as accommodation. It’s not as good as DAS, but DAS overuse was causing too much of a negative impact on Disney’s business.
DoubleSwitchback
Well-Known Member
This is a shockingly ableist thing to say; not everyone with a disability also has a severe intellectual disability. The disabled are able to formulate arguments, hold jobs, be in positions of responsibility, etc., all of which make us subject to criticism just like any other non-disabled person.
Splash4eva
Well-Known Member
Listen. I have DAS as well. To expect Disney to discount Genie to me is an absurd ask and yes comical. Noone else is getting them discounted… do i think the RTQ is going to be a nightmare yes i do but i also think allowing 1 DAS user with an entire party also one of the reasons the system is a mess. Allowing someone 1 guest as adults is more than fair. So to say Disney is forcing them to pay for that accommodation is just an outright lie
The discount just for disabled people for MULL/SULL is a non starter. Disabled accommodations can not cost extra, giving the discount is tantamount to stating MULL/SULL is an accommodation and therefore must be free.
Ultimately the here’s the fundamental problem. The average first time guest only goes on 4-6 attractions per day. Super fans, planners, people who pay an obscene amount of money and previous DAS users get on 4-5x that amount. Let’s call that group super users. Since Covid, the amount of super users has gotten so large that the first time guest rides per day is dropping, leaving that group (the most lucrative customers for WDC) unsatisfied, couple that with price increases and the word of mouth is out that going to a Disney park is no longer worth it and too hard and expensive to get your moneys worth. This is a fundamental, life threatening, problem for the company. Continuing on the path we were on previously will lead to the end to the parks. They are losing “family from Denver” business. Super users were growing too quickly that they are overwhelming park infrastructure and the main growth was in DAS users. Disney has tried limiting super fans with AP reservation rules, educated users with VQs and one ride per day G+ restrictions, and they are never going to limit whales. It was not enough the system was still breaking. There were too many super users and they continued to grow. There was only one group left. And said group was growing exponentially by the day
If Disney caves on this, it will lead to the business failing, Americans have shown they are increasingly willing to claim a disability in order to get perks, the public stigma is gone. This will continue in the future. It hurts everyone else who is playing by the rules but it especially hurts the actual disabled who used this system. Increasing capacity won’t fix this, and so long as DAS or whatever else they want to call it is a better experience then what you can get as a base guest people are going to attempt to get it. Somehow, Disney needs to make the disabled accommodation give the same experience as a base guest to discourage people who don’t need it to fake or overinflate their issues to take it. That means that disabled users should only be getting on average 4-6 rides per day. Thats the only way this works. Otherwise the disability program will be a hack to easily and cheaply become a super user.
This is the fundamental life threatening (I’m not making this claim lightly, I’m completely serious about the literal use of this phrase) problem facing park operations. It’s why they are doing this, without going into the specifics of the girls disability (and without knowing her, just from what the equipment I see in the video I know that they are severe and her life is incredibly tough) it does not change the fact that she was a super user and is unwilling to pay to remain one at the current prices.
She wants a premium experience at a price lower than what Disney is willing to offer. I would love to live in a world where someone with those difficulties could get their wish, because she has a much more difficult life then most and I personally wish she could have that accommodation, but our world is full of horrible people who will exploit our compassion for people like this and steal that privilege by claiming to need it when they don’t. And those people are slowly killing the parks we love.
Increasing capacity by adding attractions only kicks the can down the road, unless you build enough attractions that everyone can be a super user but that only works if all the attractions are home runs and most guests don’t flock to a select few (skipping others wasting that capacity.) Decreasing costs starts a positive feedback loop that kills the parks. Super user numbers need to be culled. They have already cut super fans and highly educated guests as much as they can, and they were a minority. Something must be done with the disabled accommodations.
Ultimately the here’s the fundamental problem. The average first time guest only goes on 4-6 attractions per day. Super fans, planners, people who pay an obscene amount of money and previous DAS users get on 4-5x that amount. Let’s call that group super users. Since Covid, the amount of super users has gotten so large that the first time guest rides per day is dropping, leaving that group (the most lucrative customers for WDC) unsatisfied, couple that with price increases and the word of mouth is out that going to a Disney park is no longer worth it and too hard and expensive to get your moneys worth. This is a fundamental, life threatening, problem for the company. Continuing on the path we were on previously will lead to the end to the parks. They are losing “family from Denver” business. Super users were growing too quickly that they are overwhelming park infrastructure and the main growth was in DAS users. Disney has tried limiting super fans with AP reservation rules, educated users with VQs and one ride per day G+ restrictions, and they are never going to limit whales. It was not enough the system was still breaking. There were too many super users and they continued to grow. There was only one group left. And said group was growing exponentially by the day
If Disney caves on this, it will lead to the business failing, Americans have shown they are increasingly willing to claim a disability in order to get perks, the public stigma is gone. This will continue in the future. It hurts everyone else who is playing by the rules but it especially hurts the actual disabled who used this system. Increasing capacity won’t fix this, and so long as DAS or whatever else they want to call it is a better experience then what you can get as a base guest people are going to attempt to get it. Somehow, Disney needs to make the disabled accommodation give the same experience as a base guest to discourage people who don’t need it to fake or overinflate their issues to take it. That means that disabled users should only be getting on average 4-6 rides per day. Thats the only way this works. Otherwise the disability program will be a hack to easily and cheaply become a super user.
This is the fundamental life threatening (I’m not making this claim lightly, I’m completely serious about the literal use of this phrase) problem facing park operations. It’s why they are doing this, without going into the specifics of the girls disability (and without knowing her, just from what the equipment I see in the video I know that they are severe and her life is incredibly tough) it does not change the fact that she was a super user and is unwilling to pay to remain one at the current prices.
She wants a premium experience at a price lower than what Disney is willing to offer. I would love to live in a world where someone with those difficulties could get their wish, because she has a much more difficult life then most and I personally wish she could have that accommodation, but our world is full of horrible people who will exploit our compassion for people like this and steal that privilege by claiming to need it when they don’t. And those people are slowly killing the parks we love.
Increasing capacity by adding attractions only kicks the can down the road, unless you build enough attractions that everyone can be a super user but that only works if all the attractions are home runs and most guests don’t flock to a select few (skipping others wasting that capacity.) Decreasing costs starts a positive feedback loop that kills the parks. Super user numbers need to be culled. They have already cut super fans and highly educated guests as much as they can, and they were a minority. Something must be done with the disabled accommodations.
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Splash4eva
Well-Known Member
Altho i do see many points. Im not sure how adding capacity doesn't solve many issues and ensuring the current ones working properly would make for a better experience. In regards to the amount of rides. Im not sure how people could visit the MK and do less than 5 -6 rides especially if one purchases Genie if they are in the parks majority of the day
Tigger&Pooh
Active Member
I assume they mean lightning lane multi pass and lightning lane single pass the new versions of Genie+ starting July 24th
Genie is a premium (with lowercase p) add on that grants 2-3 additional experiences. Adding more rides only works if capacity isn’t stolen from other attractions. If all that happens is the new ride makes people skip stuff like Philharmagic, Living with the Land, shows then it didn’t work. Unless you churn out home run after home run such that people are willing to skip some popular rides to do them it doesn’t work. Also since DAS use is growing, eventually it will still overrun you.
Also we aren’t talking 1-2 rides, we’re talking 7-12 new rides, at each park.
bwr827
Well-Known Member
Ah, makes sense. Mlightning Ulane Lmulti Lpass.
Just poking fun. The acronyms will drive a person nuts in this place.
Splash4eva
Well-Known Member
Again not sure how anyone can only get 2-3 extra rides while using Genie… i totally agree tho that each parks needs added capacity unlike what they have recently done with many of the “expansions” while overlaying and replacing not adding
You are not average, I’m not average, everyone who visits this site is not average. Accept it, cherish it, wear it as a badge of honor. We are all super users here.
Splash4eva
Well-Known Member
Listen i totally agree and get that 100%… i just cant see any significant subset of guests getting less than that on any given day. No matter how clueless or novice they are
Average people don’t:
-Know about drop times
-Know you can modify a choice after you make it
-Know what LL sell out first
-Don’t know 7am means 7:00:00 not 7:00:20
Most people (myself included) also have no desire to spend most of the day at an immersive theme park meant to be an escape totally engrossed in a phone constantly refreshing the app.
Lastly I’ll close with an observation/joke, remember what ever you think is average, 1 out of 2 people you see are below average.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
You know that Disney does not provide direct numbers. However we know:
-Guest attendance is down
-Disney is making drastic, unpopular, politically damaging decisions
-Lens data further up in this thread (and the knowledge he has been NDAd by Disney from sharing more data)
Why else do you think Disney is doing this now? It always comes back to money and Disney is losing money.
Club Cooloholic
Well-Known Member
I have noticed something. I was thinking about my own upcoming trip in November. I used to stress much more about how many rides we would be able to get on, my strategy for getting FPs first thing in the morning. I was not happy about paying for LL, and I miss being able to just book free ones with the phone the most, but it is what it is. That said, I like being able to say, of there is a ride the kids really want to do, and I don't want to spend 25% of my park day waiting for it, I can just buy LLs that day.
Those with Annual Passes or who at least went twice a year were probably the most annoyed by Genie and the changes to FP. The similarities with DAS are very apparent.
lentesta
Premium Member
Some data from in the parks related to this.
We've been counting the number of guests getting in both the standby line and the Lightning Lane line, by minute, on various days at various attractions, for the past year. (So tens of thousands of guests per attraction overall.)
We're doing it to test a new way to predict actual wait times. It has the side effect of measuring Lightning Lane usage over time.
The data are preliminary.
But as an example, we see the ratio of Lightning Lane guests to Standby guests at Haunted Mansion has dropped significantly since the "DAS Switch" May 20
A year ago, on July 8, 2023, we counted 7 Lightning Lane guests for every 10 standby guests at Mansion. And on other days, that ratio was as high as 13 Lightning Lane guests for every 10 guests.
Prior to the DAS switch, we never saw less than 4 LL to 10 Standby at Mansion.
As a ballpark estimate, the "pre-DAS Switch" average ratio might have been 8 or 9 LL guests for every 10 Standby.
Post-DAs the ratio is closer to 2 LL to 10 Standby at Mansion.
That's a significant drop. I am reasonably confident that a look into the park's internal metrics would show a similar trend.
The practical impact of that is that guests who don't pay for Lightning Lane are seeing significantly shorter waits in line.
And I think that's a good thing.
I haven't done the numbers, but I would have a whole bunch of questions if it was proposed that the drop in LL usage was entirely due to guests with legitimate DAS needs being denied DAS, and thus not going to the parks.
For one thing, that'd be 70% of the Lightning Lane usage and 25% of the entire ride's usage. And keep in mind, people are still getting DAS. So that's a large number to accept otherwise.
We've been counting the number of guests getting in both the standby line and the Lightning Lane line, by minute, on various days at various attractions, for the past year. (So tens of thousands of guests per attraction overall.)
We're doing it to test a new way to predict actual wait times. It has the side effect of measuring Lightning Lane usage over time.
The data are preliminary.
But as an example, we see the ratio of Lightning Lane guests to Standby guests at Haunted Mansion has dropped significantly since the "DAS Switch" May 20
A year ago, on July 8, 2023, we counted 7 Lightning Lane guests for every 10 standby guests at Mansion. And on other days, that ratio was as high as 13 Lightning Lane guests for every 10 guests.
Prior to the DAS switch, we never saw less than 4 LL to 10 Standby at Mansion.
As a ballpark estimate, the "pre-DAS Switch" average ratio might have been 8 or 9 LL guests for every 10 Standby.
Post-DAs the ratio is closer to 2 LL to 10 Standby at Mansion.
That's a significant drop. I am reasonably confident that a look into the park's internal metrics would show a similar trend.
The practical impact of that is that guests who don't pay for Lightning Lane are seeing significantly shorter waits in line.
And I think that's a good thing.
I haven't done the numbers, but I would have a whole bunch of questions if it was proposed that the drop in LL usage was entirely due to guests with legitimate DAS needs being denied DAS, and thus not going to the parks.
For one thing, that'd be 70% of the Lightning Lane usage and 25% of the entire ride's usage. And keep in mind, people are still getting DAS. So that's a large number to accept otherwise.
nickys
Premium Member
Back when FP+ was still around, there were people on another forum who insisted that
- you couldn’t modify times
- you couldn’t book for a different park from the one you were in at the time
- you had to pre-book 3
etc.
Why? Because that was what was true when it first came in and they didn’t bother to try and keep up to date with the changes.
And we’re not even talking about all the features that had been discovered by those of us who took the time to really learn the nuances.
That’s why!
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
None of that supports your claim that first time visitors only experience 4-6 attractions on average or that the number has been dropping since Covid.