New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

RamblinWreck

Well-Known Member
I’m 99% sure the answer is no as that would be legally problematic. Accommodations are supposed to provide access that is closer to what a non disabled customer has. At Disney, non disabled guests can re-ride the same thing over and over, so DAS also has to allow for re-rides.
“Has to” is probably a bit of a stretch.
So this was a bit late today, 7:45pm sorry I forgot to compile this midday todayView attachment 788527
i think there are some websites dedicated to this that keep more detailed data. You may not need to bother with this.


 

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
“Has to” is probably a bit of a stretch.

i think there are some websites dedicated to this that keep more detailed data. You may not need to bother with this.


I clarified elsewhere, that only applies if virtual queues are considered a necessary ADA accommodation. If they are not necessary under the ADA at all, Disney can enact them in whatever way they want. It will probably take a court case to get a clearer picture.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
What’s the point in posting these numbers every day, especially since most people are still using DAS?

Maybe if you’re going to post them you can give some type of analysis as to how they’re relevant.
This was the first day I didn’t give analysis, and it’s week one, so any analysis is going to be superficial. It will be interesting to note if things do slowly change over this month (suggesting that a lot of infrequent guests used DAS more) or if there is a big drop off that 3rd week in June (suggesting it’s APs and frequent guests who know every angle.). I have my suspicions it will be the latter but we’ll see what happens.
 

TrojanUSC

Well-Known Member
It was always 4:1 with legacy Fp and FP+ (with adjustments being made if FP backed up, of course). But I was never an attractions CM in the days of Genie+. Has the standard ratio changed? No wonder the SB never moves, if so!

No, I was an attractions CM during legacy and FP+. It was always 8:1ish.
 

photomatt

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry - but your wrong here. Just like the fact the handicap parking reduces spots and puts regular spots further away disadvantaging 'everyone else' is not a justification to say handicap parking should be allowed to be placed further away as to not create a burden on the others.
Nowhere in any of my posts do I say anything about parking spaces, but since you bring that up, let's discuss.

FL Statute 553.5041 (5) (b) states: "If a theme park or an entertainment complex as defined in s. 509.013(9) provides parking in several lots or areas from which access to the theme park or entertainment complex is provided, a single lot or area may be designated for parking by persons who have disabilities, if the lot or area is located on the shortest accessible route to an accessible entrance to the theme park or entertainment complex or to transportation to such an accessible entrance."

Here, the law clearly states that theme parks must put accessible parking closest to an accessible entrance.

I have not said anywhere that people with disabilities should have to walk farther to an accessible entrance so it does not disadvantage people who do not have disabilities. Your argument is a false equivalancy.
But the ramp is not introduced as a toll or a way to avoid burdening the 'everyone else'. The ramp is introduced to solve a problem of access. The fact someone may chose to keep stairs too is just a tangent... it means nothing in the sense of what burdens are acceptable.

The City Hall stairs and ramp are perfect examples of what burdens are acceptable. The ramp clearly places an additional burden of effort, time, and distance on anyone who is required to use it, yet it's completely within the ADA guidelines.

It's right there in title III of the ADA.

(b) Participation in unequal benefit. A public accommodation shall not afford an individual or class of individuals, on the basis of a disability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements, with the opportunity to participate in or benefit from a good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation that is not equal to that afforded to other individuals

And
§ 36.204 Administrative methods.
A public accommodation shall not, directly or through contractual or other arrangements, utilize standards or criteria or methods of administration that have the effect of discriminating on the basis of disability, or that perpetuate the discrimination of others who are subject to common administrative control.

I agree that you have correctly copied and pasted sections of Title III of the ADA. The issue is interpretation. I don't refute any of the text you have posted. It can't be refuted; it matches the text of the ADA.

What matters is how courts interpret what you have posted above.

We can look at A. L, et al,. v Walt Disney Parks and Resorts U.S., Inc. for guidance. It's case 20-12720 out of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.

On page 17, we can see how the court defines "discrimination" -
"Title III defines “discrimination” as, among other things:
a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations."

Here, the "entity" would be Disney. In order to justify that increased wait times for DAS would not be discriminatory, Disney would merely need to prove that the existing DAS program fundamentally alters the nature of Lightning Lanes by negatively impacting guests who paid for access. We already know this is true. We already know that DAS increases LL wait times. Disney knows this, and they undoubtedly have massive amounts of data to prove this in court.

In simplest terms, Disney would legally be allowed to increase wait times for guests with DAS because the current system fundamentally alters, in a negative way, the LL experience for guests who paid for access.

I saw in another reply that someone thinks I am trying to disincentivize DAS use. That's not true. I'm suggesting this as a reasonable alternative to what Disney is doing now. What Disney is doing with this new DAS program clearly violates the ADA. One of the most egregious violations is that Disney does NOT have the right to tell people how to manage their disability or disabilities.

The issue is queues in theme parks is not an area the DOJ has specifically codified into the accessibility standards, so all interpretation of the law falls back to the interpretation of the wide guiding protections the law sets to provide the disabled.

Agreed.

The lack of inclusion doesn't mean they aren't covered, it means there is no Federal Register filed definition of what the gov believes this definition to mean in this particular circumstance. So it relies on a court interpretation of the text of the law.

Agreed, and I have posted what is the most likely interpretation that would be used in any case coming out of the 11th Circuit. Cases out of the 9th Circuit might be decided differently.

Trying to say 'we will make you wait longer because you have DAS' is pretty much indefendable.

I have posted my defense, and I have posted supporting documentation. I respect your right to disagree, but my position is easily defended. It's not popular, that's for sure. I never said it was or that it would be.

But to say "we're gonna artificially hold you back, so you don't disadvantage someone else" is not a consequence that is defendable.

"Artifically hold you back so you don't disadvantage someone else" can be restated as "adjusting DAS wait times to provide a more reasonable experience for those who paid for LL access." It's a position that's easy to defend and it's supported by case law.

People with disabilities can purchase Genie+ and individual LL's if they don't like the return times offered by DAS. There is nothing that prevents that.
 
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rk3668

Member
Option 3 - there's no significant drop off at all in wait times, as Disney increases genie+ slots available for purchase, keeping the standby ratio and times very similar to what they are now.
I don't understand this. I thought genie+ rarely sells out as it is. Or are you referring to something else by "Disney increasing genie+ slots available for purchase"?
 

MintCity

Member
As stated yesterday this is to follow wait times as legacy DAS expires to see if they change. I’m getting a bit tired of being asked this question everyday.
You do understand there are more variables then DAS impacting wait times. To list a few: downtime for maintenance, weather, crowd levels, staffing, party days, etc. Is this analysis taking variables into account?
 

Chi84

Premium Member
Nowhere in any of my posts do I say anything about parking spaces, but since you bring that up, let's discuss.

FL Statute 553.5041 (5) (b) states: "If a theme park or an entertainment complex as defined in s. 509.013(9) provides parking in several lots or areas from which access to the theme park or entertainment complex is provided, a single lot or area may be designated for parking by persons who have disabilities, if the lot or area is located on the shortest accessible route to an accessible entrance to the theme park or entertainment complex or to transportation to such an accessible entrance."

Here, the law clearly states that theme parks must put accessible parking closest to an accessible entrance.

I have not said anywhere that people with disabilities should have to walk farther to an accessible entrance so it does not disadvantage people who do not have disabilities. Your argument is a false equivalancy.


The City Hall stairs and ramp are perfect examples of what burdens are acceptable. The ramp clearly places an additional burden of effort, time, and distance on anyone who is required to use it, yet it's completely within the ADA guidelines.



I agree that you have correctly copied and pasted sections of Title III of the ADA. The issue is interpretation. I don't refute any of the text you have posted. It can't be refuted; it matches the text of the ADA.

What matters is how courts interpret what you have posted above.

We can look at A. L, et al,. v Walt Disney Parks and Resorts U.S., Inc. for guidance. It's case 20-12720 out of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.

On page 17, we can see how the court defines "discrimination" -
"Title III defines “discrimination” as, among other things:
a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations."

Here, the "entity" would be Disney. In order to justify that increased wait times for DAS would not be discriminatory, Disney would merely need to prove that the existing DAS program fundamentally alters the nature of Lightning Lanes by negatively impacting guests who paid for access. We already know this is true. We already know that DAS increases LL wait times. Disney knows this, and they undoubtedly have massive amounts of data to prove this in court.

In simplest terms, Disney would legally be allowed to increase wait times for guests with DAS because the current system fundamentally alters, in a negative way, the LL experience for guests who paid for access.

I saw in another reply that someone thinks I am trying to disincentivize DAS use. That's not true. I'm suggesting this as a reasonable alternative to what Disney is doing now. What Disney is doing with this new DAS program clearly violates the ADA. One of the most egregious violations is that Disney does NOT have the right to tell people how to manage their disability or disabilities.



Agreed.



Agreed, and I have posted what is the most likely interpretation that would be used in any case coming out of the 11th Circuit. Cases out of the 9th Circuit might be decided differently.



I have posted my defense, and I have posted supporting documentation. I respect your right to disagree, but my position is easily defended. It's not popular, that's for sure. I never said it was or that it would be.



"Artifically hold you back so you don't disadvantage someone else" can be restated as "adjusting DAS wait times to provide a more reasonable experience for those who paid for LL access." It's a position that's easy to defend and it's supported by case law.

People with disabilities can purchase Genie+ and individual LL's if they don't like the return time offered by DAS. There is nothing that prevents that.
This is all well and good but Disney hasn’t chosen any of the alternative fixes mentioned in this thread. I don’t think they decided to do what are doing without much thought as to the legal ramifications.

How is Disney’s program clearly violating the ADA?
 

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
I don't understand this. I thought genie+ rarely sells out as it is. Or are you referring to something else by "Disney increasing genie+ slots available for purchase"?
Presumably more ride times will be given to Genie+ users (keeping standby times plateaued,) and increasing Genie+ sales.

I don’t think there was any secret that this was Disney’s plan from the beginning. I don’t think DAS changes were ever going to be about standby users.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Nowhere in any of my posts do I say anything about parking spaces, but since you bring that up, let's discuss.
Because it's a great analogy - Your argument is you should be able to ADD unnecessary waits to DAS... not because it's needed to achieve the result, but because you feel DAS users were somehow getting an upper hand (or now you say to reduce the impact of their use). Thus the parking space example - the spots can not be moved further away as a means to balance out the service. The design standards do not care that other people maybe slightly disadvantaged because of the presence of the accessible spots. What they care is that the need doesn't cause some burden that would fundamentally alter things. Which is why the # of parking spaces requirements are based on a portion of capacity.

I have not said anywhere that people with disabilities should have to walk farther to an accessible entrance so it does not disadvantage people who do not have disabilities. Your argument is a false equivalancy.
But you tried to justify putting an unequal wait on a DAS user BECAUSE of their impact. The justification is what matters.

The City Hall stairs and ramp are perfect examples of what burdens are acceptable. The ramp clearly places an additional burden of effort, time, and distance on anyone who is required to use it, yet it's completely within the ADA guidelines.
No this is not the same. The reason the ramp's burden is acceptable vs the steps is because ITS WHATS PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE. As already called out, the location of the ramps is significant too, because the requirement to avoid unnecessary burden is still there. This notion of 'well there is some additional burden.. so that means any is allowed' is not how it works. The thing that matters is the goal is inclusion - doing things that discourage equal participation is the underlying risk factor that is evaluated... weighed against the burden it puts on the business.

The fact steps can be faster is not relevant - following the ADA rules you don't even need to keep the steps.. you could force EVERYONE to the ramp. What matters is the ramp is the most feasible way to achieve the accommodation and doing so in a way that doesn't alienate those who need it.

Here, the "entity" would be Disney. In order to justify that increased wait times for DAS would not be discriminatory, Disney would merely need to prove that the existing DAS program fundamentally alters the nature of Lightning Lanes by negatively impacting guests who paid for access. We already know this is true. We already know that DAS increases LL wait times. Disney knows this, and they undoubtedly have massive amounts of data to prove this in court.
You're applying things incorrectly and completely ignoring the matter of SCALE which is what Disney's defense was hinged on.

Disney didn't just say 'GAC causes extra delays for other people so it is not reasonable' - Disney demonstrated that the impact was not only present, but so significant that it was fundamentally altering the function. Disney's defense was specific to the type of accommodation that was being requested in that case... which was essentially front-of-the-line passes. Disney's argument was THAT accommodation was not reasonable nor was the plantiff's request for a number of equivalent passes. An argument that worked because Disney was able to demonstrate not that there was 'some' impact - but that kind of unfettered access was having a unsustainable disproportionate impact.

In that case, the judge concluded that the DAS return time was a reasonable accommodation for the plantiff's situation and provided the necessary participation the plaintiff was entitled to.

This is not a judgement that says you can hold DAS users back in an attempt to balance benefits. It was a judgement that said front-of-the-line demands were not reasonable and that the DAS offer as it stood met the reasonable accommodation evaluation.

In simplest terms, Disney would legally be allowed to increase wait times for guests with DAS because the current system fundamentally alters, in a negative way, the LL experience for guests who paid for access.

No, they would have to prove way beyond 'alters in a negative way' - they have to meet the standard that it fundamentally alters their service. And how severe that is, is where the court interpretation comes into play. But just having to wait a little longer (just like having to walk a little further in the parking lot) is not going to cross that threshold. You'd have to show how it's making LL break - not just be kinda penalized. And on top of that, you'd be expected to show how your alternative is justified by no longer causing that concern.

So let's assume you get that far... and you say you calculate you gotta add 50% more wait to DAS users to keep DAS from breaking LL. You still have to weigh the equal participation and discrimination tests vs the general population. Just because your solution works for one dimension (avoiding LL breakage), doesn't mean its acceptable when tested against others. Your 'fix' for LL may not pass muster for the other criteria.. and can be told that accommodation is unacceptable as discriminatory.

And in general, you will find the courts are going to side with idea of avoiding discrimination... even if its a burden on the business. The bar is high here to argue an accommodation is too much burden.

I saw in another reply that someone thinks I am trying to disincentivize DAS use. That's not true. I'm suggesting this as a reasonable alternative to what Disney is doing now. What Disney is doing with this new DAS program clearly violates the ADA. One of the most egregious violations is that Disney does NOT have the right to tell people how to manage their disability or disabilities.
They can offer advice - and remind them of strategies that will be acceptable in their venue. There is nothing in the ADA against any of that. What Disney can't do is require a surcharge for use of the accommodation that is ultimately needed. They can outline other alternatives. Nothing against any of that. Where it gets troublesome is if the dialog approaches intimidating, or trying to discourage use of the accommodations the person is entitled to.

"Artifically hold you back so you don't disadvantage someone else" can be restated as "adjusting DAS wait times to provide a more reasonable experience for those who paid for LL access." It's a position that's easy to defend and it's supported by case law.
The standard is much higher than impacting a 'reasonable experience'.

People with disabilities can purchase Genie+ and individual LL's if they don't like the return time offered by DAS. There is nothing that prevents that.
You need to ensure your accommodation meets the needs FIRST - if someone doesn't use it, that's fine, but it has to meet the standards first...
 

photomatt

Well-Known Member
How is Disney’s program clearly violating the ADA?
In the simplest terms possible, the ADA requires entertainment venues to provide reasonable access.

Most of the US Disney theme parks were built prior to the passage of the ADA, so Disney has been required to make reasonable adjustments to their operations to accomodate guests with disabilities.

The first reasonable adjustment Disney made was the GAC. The GAC allowed for immediate access, and it was often abused. Because the GAC was abused, Disney had to make a change.

The second reasonable adjustment Disney made was with DAS. DAS allowed for guests to request return times and then use the LL, a queue with a typically shorter wait time, to acess the attraction. A clear policy was enforced where guests with mobility issues were denied access to DAS. They were required to access the attraction using a wheelchair-accessible queue. In any cases where a queue was not wheelchair-accessible, the guest could go to a CM working the attraction and request a return time. When it was time to return, they would enter the attraction through the exit. If a guest had a disability that was not mobility related, the request for DAS was approved. No documentation was required, and the CMs issuing DAS rarely, if ever, denied a request. I am using the Disneyland policy here, so please update it for WDW if needed.

Now, the DAS program is being abused. The abuse is causing LL times to increase, which decreases the value for those who paid for access. I don't think anyone here denies that Disney needs to do something. The problem is that what they are doing is wrong.

Let's take a look at some examples of reasonable access before I provide my opinion on what Disney is doing wrong.

Reasonable access when it comes to parking is having designated, ADA-compliant parking spaces near an accessible entrance to a building or entertainment venue. Access to these spaces is determined by medical professionals who issue documents that people with disabilities can take to their DMV to get a disabled placard or license plate.

Businesses provide disabled parking spaces, but they do not tell people with placards or special plates that they can't use the spaces because their disabilities don't meet their standards.

Airlines will let people with disabilities board first. We usually see them in wheelchairs, but the wheelchair is not required. All that's required is to ask a gate agent. They will mark your boarding pass and you will board in the first group, although it might be after first class if the airline has it. Airlines are not the judge and jury in deciding if your disability is "worthy". They provide equal access to anyone who asks.

Grocery stores will dim lighting and lower the volume of the music on some mornings. This is for people with sensory disabilities. Anyone can shop during these hours. The grocery store does not determine if you are disabled or not.

Concert venues and sporting events will often have accessible seating. No proof is required to access this seating. You might be asked to confirm that someone in your party requests ADA accomodations, but proof is never required.

The list goes on and on and on. Businesses offer equal access, but they don't question worthiness to use that access. The only slight exception would be for disabled parking. A law enforcement officer will want to see the placard or the special plate so they know that a vehicle is parked legally.

Now, back to Disney. Disney's solution to providing equal access to their attractions is to allow guests with DAS (non-mobility issues) to use their LL queues free of charge. This was a reasonable accomodation. The problem is that the abuse was negatively impacting the guests who paid for the service.

What Disney is doing wrong is making the determination that only certain non-mobility disabilities qualify for their reasonable accomodation.

Here is how the ADA defines a disability -

"A person with a disability is someone who:

has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities,
has a history or record of such an impairment (such as cancer that is in remission), or
is perceived by others as having such an impairment (such as a person who has scars from a severe burn).
If a person falls into any of these categories, the ADA protects them. Because the ADA is a law, and not a benefit program, you do not need to apply for coverage.

Examples of Disabilities
There is a wide variety of disabilities, and the ADA regulations do not list all of them. Some disabilities are visible and some are not. Some examples of disabilities include:

Cancer
Diabetes
Post-traumatic stress disorder
HIV
Autism
Cerebral palsy
Deafness or hearing loss
Blindness or low vision
Epilepsy
Mobility disabilities such as those requiring the use of a wheelchair, walker, or cane
Intellectual disabilities
Major depressive disorder
Traumatic brain injury"

What Disney is doing wrong is that they are telling people with disabilities that are clearly defined by the ADA that they don't qualify for Disney's reasonable accomodation (DAS) without offering anything reasonable as an alternative. Wearing a diaper is not a reasonable alternative. Wearing headphones is not a reasonable alternative. Practicing standing in line is not a reasonable alternative. Asking a CM for a return time at every attraction after explaining your disability is not a reasonable alternative. Disney is wrong to make the assumption that autism is the only disability that needs DAS. This contradicts the statement that the ADA protects people with "physical or mental impairments that substantially limit one or more major life activities."

They are arbitrarily denying and approving guests' DAS requests with no clear policy, and we have no evidence whatsoever that the people making the approvals/denials have any medical training at all. What's worse is that I have seen posts where people have been told to try again because another cast member might make a different decision. That's absurd.

I know this next sentence is going to be really hard to accept, but here goes...If a guest asks Disney for DAS for a non-mobility-related condition, Disney needs to provide it. Period. No exceptions.

Disney needs to deal with abuse using other methods. What they are doing now is cruel and heartless. Unfortunately, "cruel and heartless" is 100 percent on-brand for Disney nowadays.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
In the simplest terms possible, the ADA requires entertainment venues to provide reasonable access.

Most of the US Disney theme parks were built prior to the passage of the ADA, so Disney has been required to make reasonable adjustments to their operations to accomodate guests with disabilities.

The first reasonable adjustment Disney made was the GAC. The GAC allowed for immediate access, and it was often abused. Because the GAC was abused, Disney had to make a change.

The second reasonable adjustment Disney made was with DAS. DAS allowed for guests to request return times and then use the LL, a queue with a typically shorter wait time, to acess the attraction. A clear policy was enforced where guests with mobility issues were denied access to DAS. They were required to access the attraction using a wheelchair-accessible queue. In any cases where a queue was not wheelchair-accessible, the guest could go to a CM working the attraction and request a return time. When it was time to return, they would enter the attraction through the exit. If a guest had a disability that was not mobility related, the request for DAS was approved. No documentation was required, and the CMs issuing DAS rarely, if ever, denied a request. I am using the Disneyland policy here, so please update it for WDW if needed.

Now, the DAS program is being abused. The abuse is causing LL times to increase, which decreases the value for those who paid for access. I don't think anyone here denies that Disney needs to do something. The problem is that what they are doing is wrong.

Let's take a look at some examples of reasonable access before I provide my opinion on what Disney is doing wrong.

Reasonable access when it comes to parking is having designated, ADA-compliant parking spaces near an accessible entrance to a building or entertainment venue. Access to these spaces is determined by medical professionals who issue documents that people with disabilities can take to their DMV to get a disabled placard or license plate.

Businesses provide disabled parking spaces, but they do not tell people with placards or special plates that they can't use the spaces because their disabilities don't meet their standards.

Airlines will let people with disabilities board first. We usually see them in wheelchairs, but the wheelchair is not required. All that's required is to ask a gate agent. They will mark your boarding pass and you will board in the first group, although it might be after first class if the airline has it. Airlines are not the judge and jury in deciding if your disability is "worthy". They provide equal access to anyone who asks.

Grocery stores will dim lighting and lower the volume of the music on some mornings. This is for people with sensory disabilities. Anyone can shop during these hours. The grocery store does not determine if you are disabled or not.

Concert venues and sporting events will often have accessible seating. No proof is required to access this seating. You might be asked to confirm that someone in your party requests ADA accomodations, but proof is never required.

The list goes on and on and on. Businesses offer equal access, but they don't question worthiness to use that access. The only slight exception would be for disabled parking. A law enforcement officer will want to see the placard or the special plate so they know that a vehicle is parked legally.

Now, back to Disney. Disney's solution to providing equal access to their attractions is to allow guests with DAS (non-mobility issues) to use their LL queues free of charge. This was a reasonable accomodation. The problem is that the abuse was negatively impacting the guests who paid for the service.

What Disney is doing wrong is making the determination that only certain non-mobility disabilities qualify for their reasonable accomodation.

Here is how the ADA defines a disability -

"A person with a disability is someone who:

has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities,
has a history or record of such an impairment (such as cancer that is in remission), or
is perceived by others as having such an impairment (such as a person who has scars from a severe burn).
If a person falls into any of these categories, the ADA protects them. Because the ADA is a law, and not a benefit program, you do not need to apply for coverage.

Examples of Disabilities
There is a wide variety of disabilities, and the ADA regulations do not list all of them. Some disabilities are visible and some are not. Some examples of disabilities include:

Cancer
Diabetes
Post-traumatic stress disorder
HIV
Autism
Cerebral palsy
Deafness or hearing loss
Blindness or low vision
Epilepsy
Mobility disabilities such as those requiring the use of a wheelchair, walker, or cane
Intellectual disabilities
Major depressive disorder
Traumatic brain injury"

What Disney is doing wrong is that they are telling people with disabilities that are clearly defined by the ADA that they don't qualify for Disney's reasonable accomodation (DAS) without offering anything reasonable as an alternative. Wearing a diaper is not a reasonable alternative. Wearing headphones is not a reasonable alternative. Practicing standing in line is not a reasonable alternative. Asking a CM for a return time at every attraction after explaining your disability is not a reasonable alternative. Disney is wrong to make the assumption that autism is the only disability that needs DAS. This contradicts the statement that the ADA protects people with "physical or mental impairments that substantially limit one or more major life activities."

They are arbitrarily denying and approving guests' DAS requests with no clear policy, and we have no evidence whatsoever that the people making the approvals/denials have any medical training at all. What's worse is that I have seen posts where people have been told to try again because another cast member might make a different decision. That's absurd.

I know this next sentence is going to be really hard to accept, but here goes...If a guest asks Disney for DAS for a non-mobility-related condition, Disney needs to provide it. Period. No exceptions.

Disney needs to deal with abuse using other methods. What they are doing now is cruel and heartless. Unfortunately, "cruel and heartless" is 100 percent on-brand for Disney nowadays.
These are your personal opinions on what is or is not reasonable accommodation. I haven’t heard of the diaper suggestion which sounds far-fetched, but the others could be ways to deal with a specific problem mentioned by a specific person.

As to the bolded section, I’m not sure where you got that idea. The accommodation provided needs to address the person’s specific reason for not being able to stand in line; different people with similar disabilities can have different needs.

As far as expecting someone to explain their issue with standing in line, this makes sense so the CM can propose an appropriate accommodation.
 

photomatt

Well-Known Member
Because it's a great analogy - Your argument is you should be able to ADD unnecessary waits to DAS... not because it's needed to achieve the result, but because you feel DAS users were somehow getting an upper hand (or now you say to reduce the impact of their use).
The waits are not unnecessary. They would be necessary to preserve the experience for those who paid for LL access.

I don't feel that DAS users have an advantage. I know it. I know it from experience. DAS allows guests to ride the same attraction repeatedly. DAS allows for return times well after what's listed. I believe Genie+ offers a one hour grace period. There is an unlimited grace period for DAS, meaning that if your return time is 9 am and you come at 9pm, you will still be allowed to experience the attraction.

I will respond to the rest of your post soon.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Now, back to Disney. Disney's solution to providing equal access to their attractions is to allow guests with DAS (non-mobility issues) to use their LL queues free of charge. This was a reasonable accomodation. The problem is that the abuse was negatively impacting the guests who paid for the service.

What Disney is doing wrong is making the determination that only certain non-mobility disabilities qualify for their reasonable accomodation.
This is where you went off the rails...

'their reasonable accommodation' is not accurate. For each person, there is a reasonable accommodation. Disney before just kept recycling the same accommodation offer for numerous scenarios because operationally it made more sense for them, rather than trying to be more granular.

This doesn't mean DAS is the only reasonable accommodation for every person who used it - it means DAS met the need or exceeded it.

Now Disney is basically saying DAS was more than we needed to offer you, and we are offering you X as a reasonable accommodation instead. The fact you got DAS before isn't really relative to evaluating if the new accommodation meets your needs. That's not the customer friendly message, but that's gonna be the legal one.
What Disney is doing wrong is that they are telling people with disabilities that are clearly defined by the ADA that they don't qualify for Disney's reasonable accomodation (DAS) without offering anything reasonable as an alternative
This is not accurate - they are offering accommodations THEY believe meet the criteria. It will be tested if the courts feel the same.. but painting this as 'DAS was the answer, and now there is none offered' is not accurate at all.

The notion that there is one accommodation that must be offered to everyone with non-mobility disabilities is so far out in wrong-land it's not even recoverable.

Disney went to DAS for everyone because it was the shortest path... not because they were obligated.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And every time someone brings up airlines or transportation... you must remember those scenarios are not equal.

Airlines are regulated with other accessibility laws outside the ADA. Transportation systems and employment are covered under the ADA, but under different sections with different criteria.

Handicap parking is another even more messy situation because it too predated the ADA and they didn't mess with trying to override the existing procedures for states to regulate/issue handicap placards. So the ADA mandates design standards INCLUDING handicap parking and their presence, but is a bit of an odd ball in that it doesn't override access to using handicap parking with the same criteria as public accommodations.

So when we look at airlines and say 'wow, how can you apply these same standards over there?' -- the answer is simple.. they don't :) The intersection of the ADA's application and the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) is a whole other discussion. It's best to stick to theme parks here :)
 

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