New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[flynnibus]

And your right, accommodations can’t make the product “discourage” or not “include” disabled customers… and again, it all depends on what the disability is as to what would discourage Or exclude someone .

It's more accurate to say - it depends on what the accommodation or modification needed... not the disability per say. Because accommodating a blind person in a theatre.. is not the same as accommodating the same blind person in a open driving environment. The disability is the same, but they can be accommodated in one situation but not the other... because the accommodation needed can fundamentally alter the business/offer while the other doesn't need to.

I think that universal, and six flags and others are within the law to require documentation because they are offering the disabled guest an elevated service that non disabled guests have to pay for

That is incorrect and not why their requirements are interpreted as valid by the companies.

 

[Joel]

Once it becomes widely known what to say/how to answer to get DAS then what happens?

Probably completely replacing DAS with the minimum accommodations required to comply with the law. Which is why people should really be hoping Disney is successful at limiting abuse as much as possible.

 

[Jrb1979]

Oh yeah I know... the numbers that were shared before about DAS usage in Lightning Lane absolutely makes sense and I'm not at all disputing that. The problem is the claim that there is widespread abuse occuring when people with DAS are joining standby lines while waiting for their DAS return (basically double dipping). There is no real evidence to suggest this is as big an issue as anyone here makes it out.

If there is no real abuse occuring, the only thing any potential DAS change will do, is force people from the Lightning Lane to the standby. Which effectively means the wait times will not change. So no one really ends up ahead.

The problem is Disney is offering a paid service in Genie+ and those who purchase it aren't getting what they paid for when DAS is taking the majority of availability.

The point in the changes is to lower the DAS to open more availability for Genie+ users. Abuse is not quite the right word for what's going on. It's more that there are some who use DAS that could wait in standby if they had an option to leave the line if needed.

 

[Katieg3030]

Again, you are incorrect. Schools and employment are actually the areas that it's very clear they can require more validation of the disability.

And no to your second point as well... the 'above and beyond' criteria has nothing to do with the acceptable burden or risk of discrimination against the disabled. If you offer a service just as a perk.. that's just a perk.. nothing to do with disabilities.

They can only require disability information if you are requesting something other students/employees don’t get. They can’t use the fact that someone is disabled as a reason to discriminate against them (not hire, or not allow them to enroll ect) but yes if you need accommodations for special services they can ask.
It gets into a grey area with businesses because the Nature of the product or service offered along with the the limitations of the individual make it complex.
Because people are paying for the goods and services as much as able bodied people.. it becomes the responsibility of the businesses to meet the customers needs… because the customer is paying as much as the able bodied, but without the accommodations they would be getting less for the same price.

Again, you are incorrect. Schools and employment are actually the areas that it's very clear they can require more validation of the disability.

And no to your second point as well... the 'above and beyond' criteria has nothing to do with the acceptable burden or risk of discrimination against the disabled. If you offer a service just as a perk.. that's just a perk.. nothing to do with disabilities.

yes it doesn’t have anything to do with disabilities, unless you are charging non disabled people for what you are giving disabled people. That is when a burden of proof can be required.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

So I think the “elevated experience” offered to those with the DAS is that in theory they can hold 2 places in 2 lines without paying for it. Which makes it “greater than equal” experience.
I have seen people argue on some chats that they don’t feel it is fair to let DAS holders buy genie plus and that of course isn’t fair… DAS is the disabled persons standby line.. so they should be able to hold a place with genie as well like anyone else can.
It’s just when DAS folks are getting to be in “ 2 lines at once” for free that DAS becomes a “better” experience (which is part of the reason why Disney is in this mess to begin with lol- making it a better scenario always sadly attracts fraud )

There's more to it. It's not just the ability to be in multiple queues at once, which in itself is an enormous advantage. It's also the ability to join a queue from anywhere in the park, at any time. A standby guest cannot join a ride queue from the turnstiles the moment they enter the park. At MK and DAK, it's a hike to the nearest ride and that walk is in addition to the standby guest's wait, whereas it's included in the DAS wait for the first attraction.

A standby guest cannot join another queue as soon as they reach the merge point in their current queue, where a DAS user can. For some attractions, that's 10-15 minutes before boarding, not including the ride time, exiting and walking to the next attraction. This is why some DAS guests can potentially enjoy the lion's share of ride capacity in any park while standby guests spend that same time navigating the park, waiting in queues up-to and post merge, riding rides, and exiting, etc. It's not just that DAS gives people the ability to be in multiple queues at once, but it also enables them to do all that while waiting in a queue.

The extent of accommodations and power of the advantages the DAS system allows makes it so that if it gets into the hands of those without mitigating factors or those who don't really need it, it can really tip the scales. And it has.

I don't disagree, but this is also the case with virtual queue Guests, Genie+ Guests, etc.

All of which can be used in tandem with or in addition to DAS. These are not DAS alternatives.

Don't worry, after the new system is in place, the same 8% will still be using 70% of the capacity, the only difference, most of these folks will be PAYING. There will not be less folks in the queue.

The problem is capacity, it doesn't matter how folks get into the queue.

This frankly does not matter because Disney can regulate Genie+ in a way they can't with DAS. Disney has more levers in place to be able to manipulate Genie+ inventory to keep lines moving. They can control whether or not the system gets overwhelmed.

Can you explain why some are so upset about people with DAS doing that using DAS in place of Genie? I'm really not clear on this - not being facetious.

Because DAS is not analogous to Genie, it's analogous to standby. A person in a standby line can't be in another standby line at the same time.

 

[Katieg3030]

The problem is Disney is offering a paid service in Genie+ and those who purchase it aren't getting what they paid for when DAS is taking the majority of availability.

The point in the changes is to lower the DAS to open more availability for Genie+ users. Abuse is not quite the right word for what's going on. It's more that there are some who use DAS that could wait in standby if they had an option to leave the line if needed.

I agree… abuse seems like a really negative term.. and I don’t think the overuse of the DAS is intentional by people. I think the issue is that ride capacity is limited … so there are only so many people able to ride each ride cycle and the genie plus are limited to account for this. But the DAS pass has to be accommodated and given a return time no matter how many other DAS users have requested a return time for the same attraction at the same time. This is not sustainable.
Genie plus is factored in to the ride cycles and capacity. But the number of people using das and asking for a return time is a wild card, I think that is what they are trying to rein in.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think that universal, and six flags and others are within the law to require documentation because they are offering the disabled guest an elevated service that non disabled guests have to pay for. So if a guest chooses to request that service without paying then they have to provide documentation. It gets sort of into a grey area if they requested medical documentation without the elevated service being offered. I’m not sure how that would work with ADA, it would probably depend on what was offered and how it was worded.

You can’t only offer a “premium“ accommodation. Universal’s system is very similar to DAS. It is not equivalent to Express Pass.

 

[flynnibus]

They can only require disability information if you are requesting something other students/employees don’t get.

Obviously - the whole point is about accommodations. If you're not seeking accommodations, the entire conversation is pointless.

But unlike in public, if you ask for accommodations at work, they can scrutinize the ask and require proof. Same as for schools.

It gets into a grey area with businesses because the Nature of the product or service offered along with the the limitations of the individual make it complex.

It's different for schools and employment because they are literally different parts of the law where they explicitly allowed that scrutiny, where as when someone is just out being an average person they wanted the public environment to be accessibility to people BY DEFAULT.

The rules are different because literally they are covered by different sections of the ADA.

Because people are paying for the goods and services as much as able bodied people.. it becomes the responsibility of the businesses to meet the customers needs… because the customer is paying as much as the able bodied, but without the accommodations they would be getting less for the same price.

yes it doesn’t have anything to do with disabilities, unless you are charging non disabled people for what you are giving disabled people. That is when a burden of proof can be required.

No. You're coming up with criteria about paid and justifications that have no actual relevance to the ADA and accommodations.

You can't offer a paid service (like Express Pass) as an alternative to providing accommodations. Being paid or not has zero to do with what burdens you are allowed to apply to the person in terms of screening.

The theme park you paid $100 to get into is just as obligated to provide accommodations as the grocery store you walk into freely. And neither has the right to require documentation purely on the premise of paid or free. The ability to screen has to do with the reasonableness of providing the accommodation (usually as an impact to the business or product).

 

[Katieg3030]

There's more to it. It's not just the ability to be in multiple queues at once, which in itself is an enormous advantage. It's also the ability to join a queue from anywhere in the park, at any time. A standby guest cannot join a ride queue from the turnstiles the moment they enter the park. At MK and DAK, it's a hike to the nearest ride and that walk is in addition to the standby guest's wait, whereas it's included in the DAS wait for the first attraction.

A standby guest cannot join another queue as soon as they reach the merge point in their current queue, where a DAS user can. For some attractions, that's 10-15 minutes before boarding, not including the ride time, exiting and walking to the next attraction. This is why some DAS guests can potentially enjoy the lion's share of ride capacity in any park while standby guests spend that same time navigating the park, waiting in queues up-to and post merge, riding rides, and exiting, etc. It's not just that DAS gives people the ability to be in multiple queues at once, but it also enables them to do all that while waiting in a queue.

The extent of accommodations and power of the advantages the DAS system allows makes it so that if it gets into the hands of those without mitigating factors or those who don't really need it, it can really tip the scales. And it has.


All of which can be used in tandem with or in addition to DAS. These are not DAS alternatives.


This frankly does not matter because Disney can regulate Genie+ in a way they can't with DAS. Disney has more levers in place to be able to manipulate Genie+ inventory to keep lines moving. They can control whether or not the system gets overwhelmed.


Because DAS is not analogous to Genie, it's analogous to standby. A person in a standby line can't be in another standby line at the same time.

I didn’t think about the fact that a DAS guest can join a standby line from anywhere in park but now that you say that when I was with a family member that used it, I do remember that being a feature. Yeah, I guess that does make it very easy to tempt people to abuse it

 

[Jenny72]

Ironically, the more people are in DAS, the more people will need it. Standby gets longer and more wretched. People can't hold out that long. People feel "trapped" on lines that don't move, and they have panic attacks. It's a weird self-feeding system that is headed in the wrong direction.

Again, some people really, really need it in its current form. The goal should be making sure it works for them without heading into a death spiral.

 

[Katieg3030]

Obviously - the whole point is about accommodations. If you're not seeking accommodations, the entire conversation is pointless.

But unlike in public, if you ask for accommodations at work, they can scrutinize the ask and require proof. Same as for schools.


It's different for schools and employment because they are literally different parts of the law where they explicitly allowed that scrutiny, where as when someone is just out being an average person they wanted the public environment to be accessibility to people BY DEFAULT.

The rules are different because literally they are covered by different sections of the ADA.


No. You're coming up with criteria about paid and justifications that have no actual relevance to the ADA and accommodations.

You can't offer a paid service (like Express Pass) as an alternative to providing accommodations. Being paid or not has zero to do with what burdens you are allowed to apply to the person in terms of screening.

The theme park you paid $100 to get into is just as obligated to provide accommodations as the grocery store you walk into freely. And neither has the right to require documentation purely on the premise of paid or free. The ability to screen has to do with the reasonableness of providing the accommodation (usually as an impact to the business or product).

No, They can’t offer a paid service in place of accommodation … but if the accommodations are better than what other paying guests have access to… that is when they can request documentation. That is why those parks have done it that way. If they were only offering equal access they would not be able to request documentation

 

[Katieg3030]

Ironically, the more people are in DAS, the more people will need it. Standby gets longer and more wretched. People can't hold out that long. People feel "trapped" on lines that don't move, and they have panic attacks. It's a weird self-feeding system that is headed in the wrong direction.

Again, some people really, really need it in its current form. The goal should be making sure it works for them without heading into a death spiral.

I wonder though, if they are able to get fewer people using DAS, there will be fewer in the lingering lanes and the maybe the standby lines will be faster?

 

[DryerLintFan]

I wonder though, if they are able to get fewer people using DAS, there will be fewer in the lingering lanes and the maybe the standby lines will be faster?

I keep reading that when there is no express lane the lines move quickly.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

I didn’t think about the fact that a DAS guest can join a standby line from anywhere in park but now that you say that when I was with a family member that used it, I do remember that being a feature. Yeah, I guess that does make it very easy to tempt people to abuse it

Something like how the app handles check-in for dining could make the system a bit more balanced; i.e. when it says you're too far from the restaurant to check-in, it could say you're too far to join a queue as well. It would solve another piece of the puzzle for making the DAS experience closer to the standby one, but I'd hate for those who need this specific level of accommodation to lose it.

 

[flynnibus]

No, They can’t offer a paid service in place of accommodation … but if the accommodations are better than what other paying guests have access to… that is when they can request documentation

Then it's no longer an accommodation and just some service they are offering.

What you are describing is simply a service offering - not an accessibility accommodation. This criteria of "better than what other paying guests have access to" is complete bunkus.

. That is why those parks have done it that way. If they were only offering equal access they would not be able to request documentation

This is completely made up.

You're confusing that the businesses have noted they need to restrict use of the system to prevent it from breaking their product... with some notion of "its better, hence we have different rules". That's not why they are justifying more scrutiny.

Obviously if the system were not better, there is no reason for someone to want to use it to gain an advantage. But the idea of "its better" is not the reason they are justifying scrutiny. It's because abuse of it would fundamentally alter their product... that's why they justify the scrutiny of the users.

 

[Chi84]

No, They can’t offer a paid service in place of accommodation … but if the accommodations are better than what other paying guests have access to… that is when they can request documentation. That is why those parks have done it that way. If they were only offering equal access they would not be able to request documentation

Can you provide a source for this?

 

[DisneyHead123]

It's not 50-70% of all ride capacity. It's 50-70% of LL capacity.

Yes, oversight on my part, I edited it.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

No need to bring in stories meant to drum up sympathy. Nobody here is being heartless and saying people who truly need DAS should stand in 75 minute queues.

Hard disagree.

Compassion seems to be in short supply in this thread.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I'm not talking about Genie+ just regular Genie.

Regular Genie doesn't reserve a LL slot. It just recommends rides based on your preferences and current wait times. You can't take up spots in 2 li especially at once using Genie. You can only do that with Genie+, which is why one us free and one is paid.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

There's no "answer" here. Disney could hire a team of Quants to analyze, disect, and create the "perfect policy". Problem is that "the perfect policy" doesn't exist.

You can't be proactive, having the expectation of satisfying everyone's concerns and needs. And that's because they are so varied.

The best you can hope for is for a common sense approach and to then reactively tweak and modify where needed. I'm the first to bash Disney for some of the bonehead decisions they've made, but I also realize they are also put in positions that no matter what they do, they'll be criticized.

The number one objective here should be to noticeably cut down on the fraud. There's no way they'll ever completely eliminate it.