News Morocco Pavilion redevelopment

[castlecake2.0]

I think simply extending cultural representatives into Animal Kingdom would help. In many ways, the markets, temples, and landmarks of Animal Kingdom represent even deeper research into and appreciation for the areas depicted than the facsimiles in World Showcase. That what is essentially a zoo is attached is not especially problematic, in my opinion. Animal Kingdom is far more than the animals, despite its name.

Though not as large as Epcot’s cast, pre Covid there were Cultural Reps at the park in Africa and Asia as well as at the Lodge. They were there to talk about their culture, not necessarily animals (except the Savannah guides at the lodge). I don’t see the problem either that it’s at the “animal” park, it’s still a theme park just like Epcot.

 

[castlecake2.0]

I disagree. Animal Kingdom is first and foremost a zoo, and that animal component will always have a bearing on how the rest of the park is perceived.

Does having animals in the park have any hinderance on Cultural Reps sharing their culture and customs though?

 

[LittleBuford]

Does having animals in the park have any hinderance on Cultural Reps sharing their culture and customs though?

No. I don’t see how that affects my point.

 

[J4546]

if they add a new pavillion in the future, my vote would be india, egypt, greece, or brazil.

 

[castlecake2.0]

No. I don’t see how that affects my point.

Just wondering your thoughts on why countries can’t be represented at DAK like Epcot. (In a curious, not argumentative way)

 

[Sharon&Susan]

Animal Kingdom is first and foremost a zoo

NăHTăZū!!!

 

[MisterPenguin]

I disagree. Animal Kingdom is first and foremost a zoo, and that animal component will always have a bearing on how the rest of the park is perceived.

Surely the monkeys and apes can run a gelato kiosk.

 

[LittleBuford]

Just wondering your thoughts on why countries can’t be represented at DAK like Epcot. (In a curious, not argumentative way)

It’s not that they can’t be represented at Animal Kingdom; it’s that such representation isn’t an adequate substitute for a place at World Showcase. There’s a long and troubling history of viewing certain cultures and regions as outside the framework of civilisation proper and associating them instead with the animal world. Less than a hundred years ago, African and Asian “natives” were actually put on display in Western zoos and exhibitions. A more recent and far less extreme example of this phenomenon is the treatment of sub-Saharan Africa and certain other regions in it’s a small world.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Surely you just have to say "Africa/South-East Asia/South America is more suited to Disney's Animal Kingdom than World Showcase" to understand what the issue is? I haven't heard anyone suggest the American Adventure is redundant because you have Dinoland U.S.A. at DAK!

Cultural representatives are probably a worthy addition to DAK, but it is worth noting that Harambe and Anandapur don't represent actual places in any specific countries even if the effect of the theming is "realistic". I doubt they'll ever address this as they probably don't see it as financially worth their while, but World Showcase is kind of a relic of the time it was produced. The Imagineers saw fit to celebrate the distinct architecture and culture of Germany, Italy, France, and the UK or the USA and Canada, but always proposed some kind of Pan-African pavilion and never got around to including other regions like South America at all.

 

[James Alucobond]

Surely you just have to say "Africa/South-East Asia/South America is more suited to Disney's Animal Kingdom than World Showcase" to understand what the issue is? I haven't heard anyone suggest the American Adventure is redundant because you have Dinoland U.S.A. at DAK!

It wasn't my intention to say that they were more suited to Animal Kingdom, nor do I think I implied that. I just meant that my interest in their specific inclusion in the World Showcase waned when those regions were otherwise represented elsewhere in the parks. I would not be disappointed in such a pavilion, but I'd personally place pavilion priority on completely unrepresented regions and countries like Russia, Egypt, or Brazil.

 

[castlecake2.0]

Surely you just have to say "Africa/South-East Asia/South America is more suited to Disney's Animal Kingdom than World Showcase" to understand what the issue is? I haven't heard anyone suggest the American Adventure is redundant because you have Dinoland U.S.A. at DAK!

Cultural representatives are probably a worthy addition to DAK, but it is worth noting that Harambe and Anandapur don't represent actual places in any specific countries even if the effect of the theming is "realistic". I doubt they'll ever address this as they probably don't see it as financially worth their while, but World Showcase is kind of a relic of the time it was produced. The Imagineers saw fit to celebrate the distinct architecture and culture of Germany, Italy, France, and the UK or the USA and Canada, but always proposed some kind of Pan-African pavilion and never got around to including other regions like South America at all.

I was saying it more based on what was already at DAK and how WS needs more attractions in its already built pavilions before adding more. I do respect and see your point that it’s an area of concern with how you present different parts of the world. Saying that you are right the regions represented in DAK are not “real”. Though it could be argued that the representations in WS are just as not real in how they’re presented, but in the opposite side of the scale. For DAK Im picturing a small addition to Africa and Asia to host something like a gallery that shows real places in these regions(rather than specific country)where cultural representatives can share about their cultures and customs. I think now more than ever we need these learning opportunities. They did have several cultural reps at DAK ore covid, but I agree they should be given a better backdrop to showcase their countries and regions.

Going back to WS I feel “the Outpost” does more to hurt the representation of countries on the African continent. Either replace it with a specific country or retheme the outpost to look like the generic world Showcase plaza architecture. Like someone else said, WS was a a product of its time, and it looks like imagineers went after places known for its architecture in the western world without putting more thought into a rounded representation of different parts of the world.

 

[castlecake2.0]

It’s not that they can’t be represented at Animal Kingdom; it’s that such representation isn’t an adequate substitute for a place at World Showcase. There’s a long and troubling history of viewing certain cultures and regions as outside the framework of civilisation proper and associating them instead with the animal world. Less than a hundred years ago, African and Asian “natives” were actually put on display in Western zoos and exhibitions. A more recent and far less extreme example of this phenomenon is the treatment of sub-Saharan Africa and certain other regions in it’s a small world.

I see what you are saying here. What I’d lik to see is a specific country to replace “the outpost” and then galleries added to Africa and Asia at DAK where cultural reps would have the tools to properly show guests these regions. I’d also love a circlevision or some sort of film in either of these lands to show real places. It could help educate and also give dak something to do in AC without a huge wait, which that park is still lacking almost 25 years later.

 

[Robbiem]

I doubt they'll ever address this as they probably don't see it as financially worth their while, but World Showcase is kind of a relic of the time it was produced. The Imagineers saw fit to celebrate the distinct architecture and culture of Germany, Italy, France, and the UK or the USA and Canada, but always proposed some kind of Pan-African pavilion and never got around to including other regions like South America at all.

I think the original crop of world showcase countries was based partly on what nations had companies willing to pay to sponsor pavilions which favoured western countries at the time.

I agree more diversity is needed it would be great to have a real mix. I’d love to see African nations other than Morocco, India, South America, other Asian nations, Polynesia and the Carribean for a start before more European nations are added

 

[MisterPenguin]

For all intents and purposes, DAK provides a setting for what would have been Asian and African pavilions of Epcot.

The Asia section of DAK covers Cambodia, India, Indonesia, Mongolia, Nepal, and Thailand. The African section covers East Africa, especially Zimbabwe and Zanzibar.

Yes, there is a focus more on the animals of those regions, since this is the Animal Kingdom; but these areas are full of the local architecture, food, culture, music, and people of these regions. So much so, I don't think those cultures need a World Showcase pavilion. In some ways, the representation they have in DAK is better than what a WS pavilion could provide.

Time to remove the embarrassment of the generic Afrcian Refreshment Port of WS. DAK has it covered.

 

[GimpYancIent]

For all intents and purposes, DAK provides a setting for what would have been Asian and African pavilions of Epcot.

The Asia section of DAK covers Cambodia, India, Indonesia, Mongolia, Nepal, and Thailand. The African section covers East Africa, especially Zimbabwe and Zanzibar.

Yes, there is a focus more on the animals of those regions, since this is the Animal Kingdom; but these areas are full of the local architecture, food, culture, music, and people of these regions. So much so, I don't think those cultures need a World Showcase pavilion. In some ways, the representation they have in DAK is better than what a WS pavilion could provide.

Time to remove the embarrassment of the generic Afrcian Refreshment Port of WS. DAK has it covered.

If I remember correctly there was a strong push for a Brazil pavilion. That would add some zing to the world showcase. Samba, Carnival, Hey! you know the Brazilians know how to party!

 

[MisterPenguin]

If I remember correctly there was a strong push for a Brazil pavilion. That would add some zing to the world showcase. Samba, Carnival, Hey! you know the Brazilians know how to party!

WS pavilions come about because either a country's government or one or more of its national corporations are willing to cough up the financing to make it possible. Now, almost always the latter.

The almost-Brazil pavilion was going to be funded by Brazilian companies, but that fell through.

It seems Disney has never had a desire to finance a new WS pavilion on their own. Maybe that will change now that they're running Morocco and they see they can make more money running a national pavilion than renting it. But, I doubt it.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I was saying it more based on what was already at DAK and how WS needs more attractions in its already built pavilions before adding more. I do respect and see your point that it’s an area of concern with how you present different parts of the world. Saying that you are right the regions represented in DAK are not “real”. Though it could be argued that the representations in WS are just as not real in how they’re presented, but in the opposite side of the scale. For DAK Im picturing a small addition to Africa and Asia to host something like a gallery that shows real places in these regions(rather than specific country)where cultural representatives can share about their cultures and customs. I think now more than ever we need these learning opportunities. They did have several cultural reps at DAK ore covid, but I agree they should be given a better backdrop to showcase their countries and regions.

Going back to WS I feel “the Outpost” does more to hurt the representation of countries on the African continent. Either replace it with a specific country or retheme the outpost to look like the generic world Showcase plaza architecture. Like someone else said, WS was a a product of its time, and it looks like imagineers went after places known for its architecture in the western world without putting more thought into a rounded representation of different parts of the world.

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else were saying the comment about Africa and other regions being better suited to DAK than WS. It was a more a thought experiment where, if you vocalised the status quo in the context of adding new countries to WS, it is suddenly obvious that there are problems with it.

To be honest, even though in principle cultural representatives/exhibits at DAK seemed like a decent idea to me, when I think about what that might look like in practice there is still something jarring about it. Along the lines of what @LittleBuford mentioned, bringing in people to talk about and present their culture in themed spaces set amongst animal exhibits invites uncomfortable parallels with when people, particularly from Africa and Asia, were actually exhibited in recreations of "traditional" housing, clothing, etc. in zoos, world's fairs, etc. and treated as if they were just another exotic species for visitors to gawk at. In Australia we had a similar thing until recently with souvenirs like tea towels that would depict koalas, kangaroos, wombats.... and aboriginal people. In short, I think DAK should stick to animal-related exhibits and in that way should be quite distinct from World Showcase which focusses on human cultures and customs.

I agree about Outpost!

 

[GimpYancIent]

WS pavilions come about because either a country's government or one or more of its national corporations are willing to cough up the financing to make it possible. Now, almost always the latter.

The almost-Brazil pavilion was going to be funded by Brazilian companies, but that fell through.

It seems Disney has never had a desire to finance a new WS pavilion on their own. Maybe that will change now that they're running Morocco and they see they can make more money running a national pavilion than renting it. But, I doubt it.

EPCOT needs a kick in the pants, a spark (I'm not talking about those things in the Lagoon either). The guests enjoyed the Japanese drummers, the Mexican mariachis the Brazilian Carnival and Samba dancing would have added that kind of flavor. Since the motivation is then get out of the corporate think box stop being at the switch. What happened to being creative and imaginative?

 

[MisterPenguin]

EPCOT needs a kick in the pants, a spark (I'm not talking about those things in the Lagoon either). The guests enjoyed the Japanese drummers, the Mexican mariachis the Brazilian Carnival and Samba dancing would have added that kind of flavor. Since the motivation is then get out of the corporate think box stop being at the switch. What happened to being creative and imaginative?

Creative and imaginative costs money.

 

[DoleWhipDrea]

Disney was certainly motivated by money when they had plans to build a Brazil pavilion...primarily to sell Brazilian food. But without getting a partner to finance, as well as uncomfortable social and political issues with the country in the news regarding the country itself, it seems to me that Disney will only greenlight a new WS Pavilion if they can tie in a popular IP to sell lots of merchandise.

If the Moroccan Pavilion can thrive under Disney’s touch, perhaps they will see WS in a new light. But I am nervously watching for any additional IP things that they might try to sell here...I love Aladdin, but Agrabah isn’t Morocco.