More families of autistic kids sue Disney parks

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Agreed.
As the father of an Autistic child (and apparently high functioning myself according to the specialist), we have had to learn that he does not always see things the way we do or respond the way we would expect someone to. HOWEVER, we have also worked very hard to make him understand that the world does not begin and end with him, that his actions affect the world beyond himself and that if he wishes to participate in society, he needs to learn to adapt just as we do. We've been lucky in that our son has responded to these challenges. While not always easy (read never), he has taken big steps with modest adjustments from everyone around him. He has come to understand that in places like Disney (his favourite place in the world I might add), he needs to wait like everyone else. He understands that if it's too much for him he doesn't have to wait, but that there are consequences to making that decision (no ride being one of them). He understands that his family may still go and enjoy themselves without him.
Does he still have meltdowns? You bet. Are they every day? Not anymore.
Is this typical? I doubt it, but I also fully believe that he will be better prepared for the real world than many of those who have been diagnosed to this point.

I am so glad. Keep at it. It is so amazing to see another milestone when they have them. As I just posted, I would recommend looking into what foods they eat. They do know that they process food differently. My sister cut out dairy and soy from her diet and almost instantly it made a huge difference. I am no expert and can just comment on our experience but I truly believe that is the the food we are eating now that has done this to their brain. Too many preservatives and hormones in the food now, and over processed foods. I do not think it is a coincidence that the number of autistic and ADHD cases has sky rocketed in the last 20 years when these types of foods have become more common.
 

arko

Well-Known Member
This is true. All kids are different. But I am sure there are some parents out there that take the diagnosis and use that as an excuse for the child's poor behavior without trying to correct it. I believe that woman had made a statement that her kids needs to get on the ride NOW, and she would not be responsible if he became violent and started hitting others. This reeks of a person who is using her child's disability as an excuse. There is so much unknown about autism. I think more education and more ways to help these children is needed. It is a non stop job that you never get a break from and most days its 1 step forward and 3 steps back. We are fortunate that my niece was able to learn after years of working with her. I wish that for all autistic kids. So that they can have a life of their own as the grow older. I do want to say again that diet made a huge difference. It was almost instant the day my sister changed her diet you could tell a huge difference. I have read a study where they know that autistic kids' stomachs handle food different. They are very much "you are what you eat".
Diet can help some kids, it did nothing for ours and we tried them all. There will always be parents out there who fail their kids autistic or not. For us the GAC was a great tool because it gave my son the breathing room to learn how to cope with lines in a graduated fashion which lead to a lot less stress and a much more enjoyable vacation.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily, This is a HUGE precedent by a federal court who at least seem to be finally getting tough with the 'Law Firms with Professional Plaintiffs' using the ADA to milk settlements from people, In the past judges simply dismissed the case with prejudice which means the case cannot be refiled - no biggie law firm is out a few hours of partner and paralegal time. With this the Law Firm is on the hook for ALL of Disney's costs and the court will make sure the law firm and plaintiff PAY UP which should quickly chill similar suits as the Heads I win, Tails I break even nature of this kind of action is no longer assured as now tails may mean 'I LOSE BIG TIME'.

This is huge because remember law is built on both statute and case law, This is case law which may begin to put some sanity into the US legal system.

You (and others like you) don't really seem to understand our justice system. There is a reason we don't have a "loser pays" system. It is known as equal access to justice (there is even an act of the same name, but that involves government lawsuits). Essentially, we don't have a "loser pays" system because it is inherently unjust, favoring money and power to stifle any chance for adjudication. Large corporations and businesses have insurance and other means to pay expensive lawyers and costs that the average person cannot. There are many legitimate lawsuits that are lost that have nothing to due with the suit's legitimacy.

Also, people don't seem to understand the difference between costs and lawyers' fees. Very rarely will an individual plaintiff (i.e., non-corporate entity or small business) have to pay the attorneys' fees of a large multi million/billion company. Costs are court costs (filing fees, court reporters, service fees, etc.). These are two very specific terms, and do not encompass one another. Costs can add up, but not nearly as much as attorneys' fees. And costs are awarded often enough as to this being fairly meaningless in the grand scheme of precedent.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
You are correct but the Court actually determines what the costs are and attorney fees will be based on the actual hours spent by the Disney legal team and their compensation rate which is a matter of record, I expect this will be in the high tens to low hundreds of thousands and I imagine that since the courts want to send a message the costs allowed will be on the high side.

Very very unlikely. Costs and Attorney Fees are two very distinct terms in the legal field. Costs are expenses associated with the Court, such as filing fees, service fees, transcript fees, court reporter fees, etc. It doesn't include attorney fees or any costs the "losing side" incurs as part of their legal strategy. And while you are right that it isn't cheap, I would be very surprised if these were in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. maybe tens of thousands, maybe.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Incorrect - this commission is measuring things based on the Florida law, not the Federal ADA laws. And the commission has the power to call the parties to an administrative hearing.



The individual can file suit, the state AG can file suit, or they can call for an admin hearing which has the ability to issue orders.

The letter in itself doesn't do much except let the other processes take place..

Really now? Interesting.
 

DisneyFans4Life

Well-Known Member
My wife teaches kindergarten and first grade autistic kids..typically only about 8 students per class with her as the teacher and two aids. I've spent time in her classroom and there are some children that don't seem like they'd be handicapped at all, it just depends where they're at on the spectrum. Some children may have behavioral issues and some may behave fine, but have learning disabilities. I also know that some of these children are also on medication to help them and my wife typically knows when a kid didn't get his medication or the medication changed.

With that being said...it's solely up to the parents to decide if Disney is a place to take your child. I'm not saying that Disney isn't a place to take an autistic child, but for some (depending on the severity), it may not be the best choice or fair to the child to put them in that kind of environment. Even if a child is able to walk on every single ride without waiting, there are still crowds to get through to get to the rides or different circumstances that could set that child off.

At the end of the day, parents should decide if Disney is a good choice...regardless of what Disney has to offer.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
You (and others like you) don't really seem to understand our justice system. There is a reason we don't have a "loser pays" system. It is known as equal access to justice (there is even an act of the same name, but that involves government lawsuits). Essentially, we don't have a "loser pays" system because it is inherently unjust, favoring money and power to stifle any chance for adjudication. Large corporations and businesses have insurance and other means to pay expensive lawyers and costs that the average person cannot. There are many legitimate lawsuits that are lost that have nothing to due with the suit's legitimacy.

Also, people don't seem to understand the difference between costs and lawyers' fees. Very rarely will an individual plaintiff (i.e., non-corporate entity or small business) have to pay the attorneys' fees of a large multi million/billion company. Costs are court costs (filing fees, court reporters, service fees, etc.). These are two very specific terms, and do not encompass one another. Costs can add up, but not nearly as much as attorneys' fees. And costs are awarded often enough as to this being fairly meaningless in the grand scheme of precedent.

We don't have a loser pays system because our legislatures are packed with lawyers and not having a loser pays system allows lawyers to file suits cheaply as opposed to on the merits of the case. It allows the scum of the earth to run things like 1-800-BAD-DRUG, I actually understand it the legal system quite well and as currently configured our legal system is a 'lawyers full employment act'. I don't much like parasites and lawyers in the US these days are indeed parasites.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And Disney now has a Federal adjudication in their favor, which can be used as persuasive precedent.

The problem is the state law is insanely open ended and one could argue way more generous in the protections it offers than the Federal law. So having the judgement in the federal ADA case law could be diminished in the state case because the standards to meet are so different.

Here the state law is more generous than the Federal standard because of the lack of definition and bounds. Which is why I said even if this commission were to find against Disney, I would expect the whole thing to be challenged in court because the Florida law is.. flat out ridiculous really.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Does the ADA require that every specific disability receive a tailored accommodation?
ADA requires that an individual assessment (a.k.a. "inquiry") be performed for each person with a disability.

For example, quoting from the Supreme Court's ruling on PGA Tours v. Martin:

As previously stated, the ADA was enacted to eliminate discrimination against “individuals” with disabilities, 42 U. S. C.§12101(b)(1), and to that end Title III of the Act requires without exception [emphasis added] that any “policies, practices, or procedures” of a public accommodation be reasonably modified for disabled “individuals” as necessary to afford access unless doing so would fundamentally alter what is offered, §12182(b)(2)(A)(ii). To comply with this command, an individualized inquiry must be made to determine whether a specific modification for a particular person’s disability would be reasonable under the circumstances as well as necessary for that person, and yet at the same time not work a fundamental alteration. [emphasis added]

In an obvious example, a wheelchair ramp does little to help someone who is blind. The person who is blind needs their own disability-specific accommodation. Even this can vary for two people with identical disabilities.

A braille menu is an accommodation for someone who is blind but is useless to a blind person who cannot read braille. In this case, one person who is blind might request a braille menu while another might request that the server read the menu aloud. Both have the same disability and Disney is legally obligated to accommodate both.

From a practical perspective, individual assessments are unnecessary in most cases. Disney already has policies and modifications that will accommodate the vast majority of those with disabilities. DAS is one such accommodation. Presumably, there are thousands with Autism who visit WDW today, successfully using DAS to accommodate their disabilities.

However, since Autism is a spectrum disorder, DAS might not be enough in all cases.

Presumably, no one asked for an individual assessment when GAC was in place because GAC was enough for all, and probably more than enough for most.

Within the confines of ADA, Disney is required to provide only "enough", not "more than enough".

If an individual with a disability thinks that what Disney offers as part of its standardized modifications is not "enough" to accommodate their specific disability, they can compel Disney to perform an individual assessment to determine what is "enough".

The important point to keep in mind is that Autism is a complex disability with widely varying degrees of symptoms.

In the recent lawsuit, Disney argued that they performed an individualized assessment of the plaintiff and, based on that assessment, determined that DAS plus 24 extra readmission passes (for a party of 6) was "enough" to accommodate their specific disability.
 
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Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
I thought I had. Knowing you weren't asking me. But you keep using the term "genuine" to, I believe, refer to how acute their case may be. There are so many levels of acuity in autism. Perhaps one warrants more attention than the other and that is where this gets gray. If I'm correct, ADA regulations are in place to grant everyone the same level of access as the next person. In this current case, the committee seems to be faulting Disney for doing that, providing a blanket access system. No one answer will suffice, I guess.

Complying with ADA will always be gray. You are correct, ADA doesn't allow for delineating between perceived genuine or disingenuous opinions of entitlement for complying to ADA mandates. Businesses continue to get hammered for not being compliant with allowing service dogs by uneducated managers, still it keeps happening.

As a school board member complying with any disability is always an ever moving target. For us the Autism Spectrum has grown leaps and bounds over the years, we are constantly being updated by our school attorneys. Still complying is different from student to student depending on their needs. One might need to be transported on a Special needs bus others are fine with general transportation, every students IEP is different. Our unofficial motto is when in doubt 'just do it,' it keeps us from being hauled into court. But as the courts keep layering on more and more mandates along with court rulings all over the country that set precedents it will always be gray and a moving target for Disney, other corporations and governmental services. I give Disney a great deal of credit for designing a system to comply.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Diet can help some kids, it did nothing for ours and we tried them all. There will always be parents out there who fail their kids autistic or not. For us the GAC was a great tool because it gave my son the breathing room to learn how to cope with lines in a graduated fashion which lead to a lot less stress and a much more enjoyable vacation.

Yes. GAC was amazing. Have you tried DAS yet? Did it work for you guys?
 

FigmentPigments

Well-Known Member
I have a question.
I was injured while working at Disney World and put as a greeter to Phillarmagic. A family of 3 came to the front, and the father waved this red card at me and said his son needed to sit down. Now, this was not a polite request, but a demand. I offered to get the son a wheelchair, but the father became irate and said his son didn't need a wheel chair and that he needed to go in right away and sit down. Knowing the attraction, I was at a loss to tell him what to do. All seats are in the theater and the show was currently in progress. What did the father expect me to do? o_O Fortunately, another cast member overheard this conversation and took over.
So my question is this, what would Disney have to do to accommodate everyone with disabilities according to the law in this situation? If the argument is that a person cannot handle waits, what could the cast members do in this situation? That person would still have to wait for the next show. Similarly, if a person cannot stand for long periods of time, isn't Disney accommodating that person with a wheelchair until the next show is ready to begin? Or does that person need an actual chair to sit on in the waiting area? But again, that begs the question, what kind of chair is acceptable as a reasonable accommodation? If anyone can shed some light on this, or has actually experienced this at a similar of attraction, I would appreciate it because I had no clue on how to deal with the situation.
 

ABQ

Well-Known Member
Good question @FigmentPigments and I cannot answer it. I wonder, if that family had been moved all the way to the front of the waiting queue, all the way to the line at the doors opening towards the guests, would they have proceeded to walk all the way to the end of any row once the doors opened? I'm thinking they are a stop in the center family. :mad:
 

chiefs11

Well-Known Member
I have a question.
I was injured while working at Disney World and put as a greeter to Phillarmagic. A family of 3 came to the front, and the father waved this red card at me and said his son needed to sit down. Now, this was not a polite request, but a demand. I offered to get the son a wheelchair, but the father became irate and said his son didn't need a wheel chair and that he needed to go in right away and sit down. Knowing the attraction, I was at a loss to tell him what to do. All seats are in the theater and the show was currently in progress. What did the father expect me to do? o_O Fortunately, another cast member overheard this conversation and took over.

I'm curious, what did the other cast member that took over the situation do for them?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
So my question is this, what would Disney have to do to accommodate everyone with disabilities according to the law in this situation?

If they said their disability is they can not stand for the time necessary... then simply providing a means for them to sit while they wait would be a reasonable accommodation. So in this case where there were no chairs, simply allowing them to sit where there are some chairs and return at the necessary time would have been an example of a reasonable accommodation.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Why do they deserve special treatment? Why shouldn't they stand in line like everyone else? Why do they deserve to be treated better then the millions of normal kids?

I don't bring crazy grandma out to the parks. She has no business being there. Could I? Sure but why would I want to do it? Disney wants to give me head of the line passes and people to help me keep Granny under control then I could bring her but again why? She has no idea what is going on.

My post was in response to a statement that a poster made saying that kids with autism that was not as severe as other kids "ruined" GAC. Blaming a disabled child is very poor taste. I do agree that severe cases where it is more stressful for the child then they can handle, should not be taken. But I don't blame the child, I blame the adult who made the poor decision in taking them. And they do not deserve special treatment, just equal treatment, which is what DAS is trying to do.
 

FigmentPigments

Well-Known Member
I'm curious, what did the other cast member that took over the situation do for them?
I don't really know. She took them to the side to talk, and I turned away to answer another person's question. By the time I was finished, I did not see the family or the cast member. Judging by this thread, it seems likely that she took them through the fastpass queue, but that's where I'm having the trouble. What did she do with them while the show was in progress? Where would she seat the son?
 

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