BuzzKillington
Active Member
Disney should use the fact that there are very few adults with ASD as proof the majority (not all) who claim this affliction are fraudsters.
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More families of autistic kids sue Disney parks
- Thread starter PhotoDave219
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ToInfinityAndBeyond
Well-Known Member
Or they could continue with their current policy, where they don't require people to provide proof, which is both ADA compliant and also the right thing to do.
rob0519
Well-Known Member
ISTCNavigator57 said: if you don't like the Disney system and your kids cannot handle lines, you don't have to go to WDW for your vacation.
A thousand times? Really?
A thousand times? Really?
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
And I would agree if Disney wasn't actually making an accommodation for them to have front of the line access just not whenever they might want it. If I'm in line waiting I would like to be at the front of the line too. But, I cannot without standing in that line to work my way to the front. The accommodation made by Disney is the same thing. Front of the line, but, not instantly. Front of the line as if you were in line, but, without having to be there. I'd like that accommodation as well. I'm old and my feet hurt. If I could go and sit someplace for 30 minutes and then come back, I would consider that heaven.
Tuvalu
Premium Member
Yes. Really.
rob0519
Well-Known Member
Tuvalu said: ↑
My beef is with people who think a Disney vacation is an entitlement, and believe their needs supersede the needs of everyone else. Or that their "rights" to a perfect vacation should trump rules and policies. If you can't abide by the rules (for whatever reason) then perhaps you should not vacation at Disney. That's all.
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ToInfinityAndBeyond said: I don't think ANYONE disagrees with that sentiment.
Actually, I disagree with parts of that sentiment.
My beef is with people who think a Disney vacation is an entitlement, and believe their needs supersede the needs of everyone else. Or that their "rights" to a perfect vacation should trump rules and policies. If you can't abide by the rules (for whatever reason) then perhaps you should not vacation at Disney. That's all.
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ToInfinityAndBeyond said: I don't think ANYONE disagrees with that sentiment.
Actually, I disagree with parts of that sentiment.
rob0519
Well-Known Member
I tired to stay out of this, but that is spoken like someone who doesn't have to watch their son or daughter struggle through life with a damaged brain, tormented by multiple seizures on a daily basis or watch as this child struggles to do the simple things you take for granted, like walking, getting dressed, going to the bathroom unattended, eating without making a mess because there is a lack of fine motor control. Knowing this person will never have a job, live independently, drive a car, have a date, go to the prom, and will always be stared at for looking and acting differently from all the "normal people". These people have as much right to vacation there as anyone else.
No, Disney does not have certain rights as a public company. Your definition of "fair in accommodating everyone" is an opinion and you're entitled to it. In the world of mental health and disabilities there is no one size of "fair" for everyone and that is truly the crux of the matter.
We went to WDW with our son for years and didn't even know the old system existed until a compassionate cast member told us about it. So for years we stood in line with everyone else while they stared at our son and some made snide remarks about how he talked to himself, or bounced in his wheelchair or bit his hand in frustration. Most people didn't want us to be in the line because we were making them uncomfortable or ruining their children's experience. You can't have it both ways.
Did we use it once we knew about it? Yes. Did it make his time more enjoyable? Yes. Did a large number of people without a disability take advantage of it. Yes. So now, the rules have changed and we will change our planning and our routine to accept those changes. We'll get our time slots, enjoy some other parts of whatever park we're in and come back as the assigned time. No whining, no crying and no lawsuits.
Just don't tell me he has no right to vacation in the one place that makes him happy because he's different and may have a difficult time with some lines.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
I fully agree with your sentiment, however, there are literally thousands of varieties of handicaps so there are always going to be a situation where whatever size one produces will not fit someone. Is it to be expected that Disney be able to accommodate every single possible situation that arises or are you just focusing it on your specific problem without concern for what some others may have to deal with? This is a specific situation that has a very reasonable solution, but, it is not considered enough by those that would like to see it differently. Not everyone can be accommodated that has a need. This one is easily already covered. There is nothing even slightly unfair about it that can be traced back to being Disney responsibility.
There are people out there with no legs. They cannot transfer to a ride so they cannot ride it. Should Disney have body lifts there to make them able to be plopped into the ride? Aren't they entitled to a fun vacation experience as well? Where does it all become ridiculous and not beneficial to anyone?
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englanddg
One Little Spark...
No offense, because I can tell you are quite passionate about the subject matter, and have first hand depth of knowledge and experience...
But, I believe you should reread the statement you are responding to again, this time through a lens of comprehension.
Lets break this down.
"I didn't mean to imply that Disney is above the law and should not follow ADA requirements. I agree it should and believe that Disney's current policy is fair and non-discriminatory (though yes, it is up to a judge to decide)."
She was responding to a misconception about an earlier post where she misspoke about it being a "private corporation", which implied, wrongly, that it doesn't need to adhere to State and Federal guidelines (which include ADA). So, she was correcting herself, and the misconception.
"My beef is with people who think a Disney vacation is an entitlement, and believe their needs supersede the needs of everyone else."
Which, clearly does not apply to you as you yourself described it. You appreciate the accommodation, but you do not abuse it and demand more at the expense of others.
"No whining, no crying and no lawsuits."
Again, doesn't apply to you, but what she is doing is establishing the attitudes of the sort of people who, like the famous Autism Hippie, would claim that it was a Front of the Line benefit with unlimited readability without reboarding privileges (and, unfortunately, she's taken her videos down, but her video trip reports from Disney showed EXACTLY that...she made no bones about it).
"Or that their "rights" to a perfect vacation should trump rules and policies."
And furthermore doesn't apply to you, as you outlined. AH, when she used to post, would regularly argue with someone who posted a copy of the GAC where it CLEARLY SAYS that it doesn't offer FotL benefits.
You behave within the system and respect it, and I'm sure you'd have feedback, positive AND constructive. But, @Tuvalu wasn't speaking about you. She was addressing a different group of people (who, btw, aren't necessarily dealing with a disability, it's the same for people who want to sneak Selfie Sticks and use flash cameras on Dark Rides).
People who don't want to follow the rules for the general better experience for everyone, rather they wish to redefine the rules to suit their own whims and desires.
So, with context established and comprehension applied, lets revisit her final statement.
"If you can't abide by the rules (for whatever reason) then perhaps you should not vacation at Disney. That's all."
You should be able to see that what you thought she said, in a momentary fit of 30 words per minute keyboard rage, wasn't really what she said at all.
Tuvalu
Premium Member
This is exactly what I meant. You are right, @rob0519, I don't know the pain and hardship first hand of raising a disabled child. But I have watched friends do it and I stand in awe of their patience, love and sacrifice. But one in particular would not even consider taking her child to Disney, not because of Disney's policies but because she knows her child would get no enjoyment from being there. The child's needs are too numerous for Disney to accommodate.
Please accept my apology if my comments came off as pithy. I did not mean to offend you.
granted this was years ago but I still remember the day I had a young Downs boy at Disneyland. we were standing in line waiting our turn, no special pass, when the mother of the 2 kids in front of us turned around and told me " how dare you bring an child like him here and expose my kids to him" when I refused to remove him she left kids in line to go find someone to take care of the problem. while mom was gone kids told me they were from out of state and this was their only day to visit. now here comes security and he asks if I want him to remove the family from the park those kids are standing there hearing him with no parent around. I did say no to them being removed as it was not fair to those kids because of parents bad choice. so I bet this can still happen with other disabilities today esp if child has behaviors that other do not want to be around
Flyersgirl17
Well-Known Member
So I read through the ENTIRE thread and I was both sympathetic and angry at the same time. Autism is such a touchy subject. I have a few family members who have children who are diagnosed as autistic, but all are at different levels. One child's need might not benefit another's need. I, myself have a child with a medical & physical handicap. When we planned our WDW trip we took into consideration all the ride times, restaurants, airplane schedules, buses etc. We could have taken advantage of the benefits that are offered but we didn't. I'm glad it's there if we did need it though. I hope whatever the outcome, it will be quick and painless.
1023
Provocateur, Rancanteur, Plaisanter, du Jour
That was handled very well by you. Too bad that there are people in this country that are so uneducated. Hopefully, at this point in time, there are fewer ignorant and intolerant adults.
*1023*
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Just kindof blows my mind, because aside from panic attacks (which are predictable)...Downs was one of the easiest for me to personally deal with.
(I worked as a volunteer student aid in Jr. High and High School in the, what we called then, "challenged rooms" or "Learning Disabled rooms"...not sure what the PC term would be today)
They were just genuinely nice people who wanted to do fun things. I know that's a gross oversimplification, but on AVERAGE, it is the truth.
Severely Autistic children (and note, SEVERELY)...were more difficult. And mind you, often they were my peers, so things I would probably have chuckled off then, now that I'm older I'd look back with much more dismay.
We had one kid who had an ankle fetish. We'd tell girls during our "integration whatever the teacher called it" parts where he'd visit the drama class or attend an assembly, they need to wear socks. Not kidding.
More than once I saw this kid (meaning a 14 or so year old) notice some ankles, and literally run across the room and start humping the girls leg.
The worst incident was when the cheerleaders came out in a Pep Rally that he attended and he ran out onto the court.
Not his fault, it is his condition. And, frankly, most of MY peers, while we laughed (I mean, come on, it's funny)...we didn't blame him for it.
Others didn't feel the same however, including some parents.
His description sounds great, and for a family without a disabled person in it that would be a great perk, but for some families that include someone with a disability the reality is a lot different.
That has no bearing on the law.
ADA prevents Disney from asking people to prove their disability.
Whether you personally feel people are frauds is not germane to Federal Law.
Define few. Recent studies have shown that autism is just as prevelant in adults as it is in children.Its just that we have gotten better at diagnosing it.
This does not mean that there are those out there who game the system. Its just its highly unlikely its someone who has an actual diagnosis.
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Yes, but that also calls into question the "my child will never" attitude that many parents of autistic children adopt.
I'm fairly certain that many autistic children were once considered "gifted and talented" even 20 - 30 years ago due to elementary testing scores, and were separated from the "normal" classrooms just as those with more severe issues were. Back when it was ADHD, or ADD, or "Hyperactive", or whatever the popular diagnosis is at the time.
My point is that, it's not the condition. It's the broad brush of the condition that makes it extremely difficult to react to as a society.
Combine that with parents who don't take the time to educate themselves on the matter, or take the news as some sort of "life death sentance" for their child, as in "my child will never", when really their child is very mild on the spectrum...
Well, to be frank, I find it rather disgusting.
I'm not normally one to empathize disgust, but having worked with autistic children who are rather on the "severe" side, I can understand a lot of it (including Autism Hippie at times and how she was afraid of her child...the issue with her was that she'd then turn HIM into a weapon by threatening people with his unpredictability and physical size...but, I get that...she was scared herself and just trying to be a good Mom..and not sure how..)
It's a tragic thing, all the way around, but everyone (on both sides) is making it far more conflated than it need be.
A child with mild autism isn't going to die hopeless and alone in Mom's basement. Just like a child with severe autism (like the ankle guy I mentioned earlier) probably doesn't need to be exposed to certain environments.
It's time we all grow up about it and be responsible instead of thinking the larger society owes us cake (and before it's implied, I am NOT referring to parents of Autistic children, rather, similar in attitude to the group @Tuvalu singled out before, the attitudes of some, like Autism Hippie, who abused her situation, and frankly, unintentionally, her son's condition, to help cope with her own grief...and it's a very real grief, I get that...)
Kate Alan
Well-Known Member
Speaking as an adult with ASD...this is just ridiculous. ASD doesn't magically vanish when you become an adult - children with ASD grow up to become adults with ASD, and even if they manage to adapt and develop coping mechanisms as they get older to deal with various symptoms or sensory issues, it doesn't make them any less autistic. It's not something you "grow out of".
1023
Provocateur, Rancanteur, Plaisanter, du Jour
I'll say this about the chances of a lawsuit of this nature actually producing the stated desired results (not the money part), it will likely fail. Just perusing through the published DOJ's title 3 highlights covering this area, I find only one section (roman numeral V) that might be vague enough to clutch for something unprecedented.
A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate individuals with disabilities.
An argument has been made (and very well) that Disney has already done that. In fact, they have gone beyond what most other similar entities provide. However, since the DOJ is not running this wagon train, I am not concerned.
If Disney were ruled against, I believe I know what direction they would go to prevent a massive problem. I'll share that before it comes to pass but after a ruling of some kind.
*1023*
Good Post @Kate Alan
A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate individuals with disabilities.
An argument has been made (and very well) that Disney has already done that. In fact, they have gone beyond what most other similar entities provide. However, since the DOJ is not running this wagon train, I am not concerned.
If Disney were ruled against, I believe I know what direction they would go to prevent a massive problem. I'll share that before it comes to pass but after a ruling of some kind.
*1023*
Good Post @Kate Alan