News Monorail Red in motion with guests on board and doors open

[lazyboy97o]

I thought the Mark III where the Mark II's with a fifth car added? Would that not make 4 of the five cars of the Mark III's a life span of 26 years? Or maybe the Mark II's were just the Mark I with a fourth car added?

The Mark IIIs were new. The Mark V and Mark VII reused the Mark III chasis and the Mark VII also reused most of the Mark V bodies.

 

[BoarderPhreak]

Here's a fun fact to add to that. The state of Florida considers a vehicle 30 years old or older to be an antique. So if they can hold off buying new trains until 2019 we'll all be able to ride the very first ever Disney Antique Monorail!

Oh, they've been antiques for quite a while already...

 

[BoarderPhreak]

Interesting:

- Mark IV: Built by Martin Marietta of Maryland in 1969 at the cost of about $7M each.
- Mark VI: Built by Bombardier of Canada in 1989 for a reported cost of over $3.5M each.

Moral of the story? Don't use a government contractor.

 

[ford91exploder]

EDIT: Ok this turned into an incoherent essay, apologies - feel free to skip over this. The TL;DR - Closing the monorail is a non-starter, and fixing it is realistically going to happen, one way or another.

Realistically I cant see that happening. As it stands it seems they have no supplier, nor intention of replacing them. Even if we throw a supplier into the works immediately, it'd take more than 3 years to plan, design, test and build enough to be useful.

Really the plan right now should be:

Current Fleet

• Emergency funds issued to cover hiring (or bringing back) maintenance staff to improve the amount of time being spent on each train car.
• Overhaul the current fleet one by one. I'm not talking furnishings or air-conditioning, I'm talking mechanical. A complete strip down and inspection/repair of each car - every nut and bolt.
• If funds permit, a minor interior overhaul to see the train through the next 5 or so years whilst the replacement work is carried out.
• Introduce a timed schedule to the monorail, allowing a train say every 10 minutes during peak times, and 15-20 minutes during off-peak times. This would allow for a reduced service whilst still providing a reliable, consistent schedule.
• If investigative works show that there are one or more trains in the current fleet that are no longer fit for service, remove them and use for parts for the remaining trains - no more half assed jobs, if it means the fleet runs low on trains then so be it - fix that mistake next time and order more bloody trains.
• Consult with Bombardier who built both the MK VI trains and the not to dissimilar Las Vegas M-VI trains. Like the IV (Which did run on the vegas beams for a short time) these trains are interchangeable. Both work on the exact same beam and power system, and Bombardier still maintain the M-VI. The base components are (for the most part) the same, with the obvious exception being the shells.

New Fleet

• Immediately open a tender to build a replacement fleet of 10 new trains, along with a 25 year maintenance contract. There is absolutely no reason why a modern vehicle (even with its constant usage) can not last this long with the correct maintenance.
• Build a new monorail spur, along with a new workshop to allow for indoor overnight storage of all trains, along with maintenance bays, tractors, etc.
• On the back of the Disney Transport Company, form a new team of designers, engineers, etc who would work along side the contractor building the first 10 trains to construct a further 5, giving control of the fleet back to Disney.
• Follow the principles of modern light-rail trains/trams which are EXTREMELY cheap to build compared to what Disney paid for the MK VI trains and would have significantly higher capacity, with full walk-through carriages, illuminated screens, air conditioning, etc.
• Commit to a 10 year expansion plan to bring the Monorail to all 4 parks - again, people tout figures on it costing millions for a single piece of track. The costs are far lower than they were when the monorail was originally built, and again Bombardier are very experienced at this so would be an obvious choice. A monorail if done right can be cheaper than a bus fleet over time, and again if done right can handle a significantly larger amount of passengers. Disney's is currently not being done right and from a volume and cost point of view, has never been done right.

We're at the point where Disney either give up and commit to the enormous cost of removing the monorail (and the cost would be enormous). Or commit to their own future and sort the damn thing out so that it'll last, improve the entire transport network around the parks and improve the overall experience for everyone.

The obvious elephant in the room is the cost. Lets put some rough figures out there. The current fleet cost $3.57 million per train back in 1989. By todays standards that approx $7.1 million per train. However realistically would certainly cost under $5 million and likely under $3 million. By comparison, an entire light-rail network installation and fleet of 7 trains in Sheffield UK, even with an overrunning budget cost the equivalent of $103 million. A similar network exists in London, with the vehicles being built by Bombardier at a cost of £35 million ($48 million) for 24 complete tram-trains.


Fixing the monorail, and by extension all of Disneys transport problems is not as big of an issue as people like to think.

In 2018 it doesn't cost anywhere near as much to build the beams - people often misquote the Las Vegas projects beam costs and assume Disneys is the same. The Last Vegas project cost so much because the property costs and logistics of building around an existing city - issues which Disney does not face. The other comparison; Brazil - theirs costs were estimated to be around $800 million, but this included the cost of 54 trains, all of which had 7 cars, not to mention construction cost differences.

Outside of theme parks, Disney has made some phenomenal business decisions over the last several years, with Lucas and Marvel paving the way for years of original IP. There's absolutely no reason why a company of Disney's size and skill can not sort this out. I just wish we had less of the 'world is falling down' attitude - closing the monorail down is simply not going to happen, despite what a few dramatic people seem to think.

Bombardier is a pretty obvious choice as a business partner. On the back of WDI's invention they've build a multi-billion dollar business. Last year they were contracted for a massive new monorail system in Thailand, using the exact same technology used by WDI to design the IV, and later passed over to Bombardier for the VI. Bombardier have modern trains that work on the Disney beams, they are actively making these so its technically VERY simple to replace the trains.

Your extremely well thought out plan will not occur because WDW is run today to maximize cash extraction from WDW its why construction
Disney will choose the option with the lowest SHORT TERM cost, That means buses.

Monorails will simply be abandoned in place.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Your extremely well thought out plan will not occur because WDW is run today to maximize cash extraction from WDW its why construction
Disney will choose the option with the lowest SHORT TERM cost, That means buses.

Monorails will simply be abandoned in place.

Exactly - if Disney cared about long-term viability they would have replaced the trains and/or expanded the monorail ten years ago instead of adding hundreds of busses to their fleet, clogging up traffic, polluting the environment and frustrating angry guests.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Here's my "blue sky" idea:

Build a parking garage between MK and GF, then run trams on what is now the walkway to nowhere over there up to the entrance. This has the benefit of relieving stress from the monorail system as well as watercraft.

Sell the entire monorail system to RCID.

RCID then issues bonds to purchase a new fleet of trains as well as combine the Epcot and Express line eliminating the TTC. The Express line then becomes a park to park line servicing MK and Epcot.

RCID contracts Bombardier to operate and maintain the monorail system indefinitely.

This way the iconic monorail system remains but is more of a convenience then a necessary part of getting into the parks. Disney doesn't have to spend any money. Lastly they free up a huge plot of land with the potential to add another resort on the lagoon with monorail access.

Not going to happen for a host of reasons. Nice thought though.

 

[IanDLBZF]

Sell the entire monorail system to RCID.

Or better yet have FDOT and Bombarider operate the system with FDOT fully responsible for maintenance. That way it would be easy to use a federal loan (such as TIGER or RRIF) to rehabilitate the entire system and acquire new rolling stock.

 

[IanDLBZF]

Here's a fun fact to add to that. The state of Florida considers a vehicle 30 years old or older to be an antique. So if they can hold off buying new trains until 2019 we'll all be able to ride the very first ever Disney Antique Monorail!

And WMATA has retired many older 1000 and 4000 series railcars that were over 25-40 years old already. MTA NYC and MBTA are still operating older rolling stock from the 80s and 90s (even some that have been refurbished).
Speaking of "vintage" Miami-Dade Transit still operates older Budd Metro Cars that are 34 years old, however these are being retired in favor of newer Hitachi Railcars (did I mention that Hitachi has a factory in South Florida?).

 

[Creathir]

I guess it's time for some updated metrics

Monorail Length of Service

DISNEYLAND RESORT
Mark I : 1959 - 1961 (3 Years)
Mark II - 1961 - 1969 (8 Years) [266.667% Life Span Increase]
Mark III : 1969 - 1987 (18 Years) [225% Life Span Increase]
Mark V : 1987 - 2008 (21 Years) [116.667% Life Span Increase]
Mark VII : 2008 – Present (10 Years old and Counting)

WALT DISNEY WORLD RESORT
Mark IV: 1971 - 1991 [Last Train of the Mark IV Fleet] (20 Years)
Mark VI: 1989 [First Train of the Mark VI Fleet] - Present (29 Years and Counting) [145% Life Span Increase and Counting / 5% Every Year]


Average Lifespan of a Disneyland Monorail
12 Years [With Mark VII Added]
12.520+29 Years [Without Mark VII Added]

Average Lifespan of Walt Disney World Monorail
24.5 Years [Added with the Three Years Between the Introduction of the Mark VI Fleet on the Beams and the Last ride of the Mark IV Fleet]
23.5 Years [NOT added with the Three Years Between the Introduction of the Mark VI Fleet on the Beams and the Last ride of the Mark IV Fleet]

Estimated Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 1970 though 2017 in USD
Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 1970: $1,000,000.00 +$0.00
Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 1980: $2,126,058.21 +$1,126,058.21
Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 1990: $3,371,207.66 +$1,245,149.45
Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 2000: $4,429,368.03 +$1,058,160.37
Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 2010:
$5,507,010.05 +$1,034,549.65
Cost of a Mile of the Monorail Beam in 2017:
$6,525,476.19 +$1,018,466.14

Since 1970 the Monorail Beam Price went up by: $5,525,476.19

$7,500,000 per mile...
That makes the 3 mile gondola system which is between $200-300 million look absolutely ridiculous...

Why on earth was the monorail not extended and expanded...

 

[WDWTrojan]

$7,500,000 per mile...
That makes the 3 mile gondola system which is between $200-300 million look absolutely ridiculous...

Why on earth was the monorail not extended and expanded...

Worth your time...

http://www.yesterland.com/monoraillegends3.html

 

[Creathir]

Worth your time...

http://www.yesterland.com/monoraillegends3.html

Of course when you add stations, expensive land acquisition on the strip, and the monorails themselves, the cost goes way up...

 

[esskay]

That's exactly what it is.

Cool, so based on that the cost isn't actually going to be a very accurate cost estimate anymore. At the time it was prohibitively expensive due to having to ship most the beams down from Washington, combined with having to specially adjust trains to take the beams, and then the costs for all the issues such as derailing a train, not to mention it being a relatively new technology at the time.

The beam design used is a standard now, and is used for virtually all modern monorail systems and trains (all the Bombardier trains currently available are being made for the same ALWEG beam. The costs would therefore likely be significantly lower than the inflation rate. Although it is interesting to see how much they were paying in todays money.

 

[Monorail_Red_77]

Cool, so based on that the cost isn't actually going to be a very accurate cost estimate anymore. At the time it was prohibitively expensive due to having to ship most the beams down from Washington, combined with having to specially adjust trains to take the beams, and then the costs for all the issues such as derailing a train, not to mention it being a relatively new technology at the time.

The beam design used is a standard now, and is used for virtually all modern monorail systems and trains (all the Bombardier trains currently available are being made for the same ALWEG beam. The costs would therefore likely be significantly lower than the inflation rate. Although it is interesting to see how much they were paying in todays money.

Also, don't forget that for the EPCOT beam construction. the beams were made on-site at WDW unlike the two MK beams (express and resort). Towards the end of EPCOT beam construction WDW actually purchased the company that made the beams. This was due to the at-the-time plan to send service over to Disney Village Shopping (Disney Springs). Point is. I'm sure it was cheaper to make EPCOT beam (route) than it was MK. Maybe not much cheaper considering it is much longer than MK routes combined.

 

[larryz]

Wouldn't the monorail be cheaper if you could bring the rail down to grade where road crossings aren't an issue?

 

[Bocabear]

Wouldn't the monorail be cheaper if you could bring the rail down to grade where road crossings aren't an issue?

then it would be a train....and traffic crossings would always be an issue... that is why they designed the whole mororail system to begin with....

 

[Monorail_Red_77]

So, now there are these stickers/signs above the monorail doors in the cabins. Also, monorail pilot makes a live statement to stay clear of the automatic doors and not to lean on them. In addition to our favorite automated audio message. Plus, at least one CM in MK station made mention to me to turn my stroller diagonal once inside the cabin. Though this only happened once over my two day visits.

by the way, I love the relaxed look of the person leaning against the door arms crossed and all. Just missing his Mickey ears hat and Starbucks coffee.

 

[larryz]

then it would be a train....and traffic crossings would always be an issue... that is why they designed the whole mororail system to begin with....

No, it would still ride a singe rail, and I specifically said "where road crossings aren't an issue." Case in point, the long stretch that parallels World Drive between TTC and Ipcot.

 

[Monorail_Red_77]

No, it would still ride a singe rail, and I specifically said "where road crossings aren't an issue." Case in point, the long stretch that parallels World Drive between TTC and Ipcot.

I do not think the height has anything to do with costs. I think it more has to do with the precise alignment of the beam sections and the pre-stressing that has to happen during installations with the internal cables connecting each six beam lengths together as one large section.

 

[larryz]

I do not think the height has anything to do with costs. I think it more has to do with the precise alignment of the beam sections and the pre-stressing that has to happen during installations with the internal cables connecting each six beam lengths together as one large section.

Perhaps. I'm just thinking that not having to dig and reinforce the footings for the pylons holding the track up might reduce some of the cost. To my mind, you only elevate where absolutely necessary, for example, the elevated Selmon expressway in Tampa.

 

[Brad Bishop]

View attachment 256823

Looks like they fixed it! All that was needed were a few signs.