News Monorail Red in motion with guests on board and doors open

s8film40

Well-Known Member
*sigh*

The entire point was that when you have a huge mass of people concentrated at once... the monorail which has lower capacity is problematic at trying to move that mass. For instance per train, the light rail here has more than 3x the people capacity of the wdw monorail... yet leaving the stadium has huge backups. Even with trains queue up for minimizing gapping... they still have massive backups. A dedicated right of way doesn't change any of that.

And besides, the system here is integrated with the traffic lights giving the trains priority without a separate right of way. That's how they can maintain a fixed schedule and can average 22mph over a 20 mile stretch that much is shared with city traffic.



That's a huge "only" - because the point is capacity.... and fixed rail trumps monorails in that category... and even when the max number of trains are on the loop is typically four... that means 1 light rail train can match nearly all the monorails on the entire loop.

Monorails are lower capacity than heavier gauge trains. That's just reality. When moving large masses of people.... the dispatch time required to load so many people is a bigger bottleneck than your traffic concern.

And why monorail has never been able to handle the mk load on their own.
I'm curious what light rail system you're referring to 1,400 passengers is a very large train. Also it's worth noting capacity isn't tied to rail format, you can have a Monorail that has very high capacity and a light rail that has very low capacity and vice versa. Also as you were initially referring to the Vegas monorail, that system was designed with the trains being able to couple together to double the capacity of the system if needed.
 

Da Man

Member
How many emergency buttons have you found disabled by an accountant?

Not by an accountant, but without going into too much detail, I’ve seen safety systems fail to operate due to two main factors-

-electrical and mechanical safety systems have failed due to a design flaw by engineers during the development phase that weren’t caught during testing that did not manifest until many years after thousands of installations,

-lazy, inept, or over-worked technicians who bypassed a critical safety system to service or repair a unit who then forgot to remove an electrical or mechanical bypass.

There was a famous incident (in our industry, anyways) where a technician bypassed a door interlock (the electrical switch located at every door an elevator stops at that verifies door closure and locking) that caused a young woman to be decapitated in New York. Those things stick with you and remind you not to hurry yourself, no matter how many accountants and supervisors are rushing you along.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I'm curious what light rail system you're referring to 1,400 passengers is a very large train. Also it's worth noting capacity isn't tied to rail format, you can have a Monorail that has very high capacity and a light rail that has very low capacity and vice versa. Also as you were initially referring to the Vegas monorail, that system was designed with the trains being able to couple together to double the capacity of the system if needed.

Maryland MTA. They are larger than normal trains. And monorails tend to be lower capacity than heavy or light gauge trains by nearly virtue of the definition of the train.

We already know monorails are swamped at MK at closing... a football stadium is just as bad or worse. 70k fans... at once.

I wish I could find some photos of the platform here after a game.... it's pure mass of bodies and stuffing the trains as if we were in Delhi :)
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Maryland MTA. They are larger than normal trains. And monorails tend to be lower capacity than heavy or light gauge trains by nearly virtue of the definition of the train.

We already know monorails are swamped at MK at closing... a football stadium is just as bad or worse. 70k fans... at once.

I wish I could find some photos of the platform here after a game.... it's pure mass of bodies and stuffing the trains as if we were in Delhi :)
From looking online it seems those trains have a capacity of 176 per car and operate with up to 3 cars. So yes they are large for light rail, however they are not quite equivalent to 2 Disney monorail trains and have a lower capacity than the full potential of the Vegas monorail trains. I agree dumping large sporting venues or even theme parks into a transit system is never going to go well. MK has the advantage of two lines pulling guests in. That's essentially 8 trains with a capacity of 360 each every ten minutes. You could round that down to about 2,500 every ten minutes or 15,000 an hour. For the MTA line you speak of to be equally efficient to the MK monorail it would need to have 2 platforms with trains departing every 4 minutes. If the MTA line could upgrade to the current Bombardier monorail they would increase their capacity significantly.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
How many emergency buttons have you found disabled by an accountant?

Actually every single one of them on a large northeast college campus when accounting mandated a cutover to VoIP and DID NOT LISTEN to the facilities manangement who told then it was not that simple. They 'saved' tens of thousands per month (out of hundreds of thousands) on the 'critical' lines. For a short while anyway.

Disabled all the elevator phones, ATM's and a bunch of other stuff dependent upon copper POTS lines. Took them 4 months to get everything working again.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
"It's iconic!!"

Remember, being iconic doesn't necessarily mean that they'll never be removed, they can simply be shut down and be looked at like a pretty museum piece.

This post in no way implies they'll be doing that, but, just wanted to get it out there that something's iconic-ness is not a guarantee it will be kept running.
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
surprised your government isn't inspecting how you brush your teeth yet.
Are you kidding? This is the government that came out recently saying they can't endorse the effectiveness of flossing because there haven't been any studies on it...
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Are you kidding? This is the government that came out recently saying they can't endorse the effectiveness of flossing because there haven't been any studies on it...

*enough studies

They're also eyeing the plasticized microbead abrasives in the paste...
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
From looking online it seems those trains have a capacity of 176 per car and operate with up to 3 cars. So yes they are large for light rail, however they are not quite equivalent to 2 Disney monorail trains and have a lower capacity than the full potential of the Vegas monorail trains. I agree dumping large sporting venues or even theme parks into a transit system is never going to go well. MK has the advantage of two lines pulling guests in. That's essentially 8 trains with a capacity of 360 each every ten minutes. You could round that down to about 2,500 every ten minutes or 15,000 an hour

But the original comment was about Vegas... not MK :) The MK was just used as a reference to illustrate what it means to have thousands approach a platform at the same time. Disney runs 4 trains, but never comes anywhere close to stuffing the cabins near capacity... especially with the stroller brigade. (and each train isn't pulling a new full load every 10mins). Plus their cab design is not optimized for standing.. so the MK system is especially weak for these peak loads. Yes, they get the advantage of both the Resort and Express loops (which LV doesn't..) and still can't handle the full load of the park exit. LV if I recall have an open floor plan with edge seating IIRC making their cabs more suitable.. but still something like 220 per train. So close to 1 light rail car... but the light rail is running 3 of those per train :)

For the MTA line you speak of to be equally efficient to the MK monorail it would need to have 2 platforms with trains departing every 4 minutes. If the MTA line could upgrade to the current Bombardier monorail they would increase their capacity significantly.

I bet MK averages more like 36-40 people per train instead of 60.. and if a train only makes 2 loops an hour.. that would only net you about 500ppl an hour per train. Or 4000 people an hour for 8 eight trains. Even if you said they made 3 loops an hour.. that's still a pitance. And back to LV... they only have 9 trains total.. and 1 track to use in the 'leaving' direction so even tho their stock carries far greater # of people than Disney's.. even at 220 people per train.. dispatched every 4 minutes.. it's still pretty tiny compared to the 10s of thousands of potential riders.
 

mikejs78

Premium Member
"It's iconic!!"

Remember, being iconic doesn't necessarily mean that they'll never be removed, they can simply be shut down and be looked at like a pretty museum piece.

This post in no way implies they'll be doing that, but, just wanted to get it out there that something's iconic-ness is not a guarantee it will be kept running.

While that's true, I think it does mean it's less likely to cease operations than other modes of transportation. If the Monorail goes, that removes a huge perk of staying at the Poly/Grand Floridian/Contemporary - not sure how you make up that perk..
 

King Panda 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
"It's iconic!!"

Remember, being iconic doesn't necessarily mean that they'll never be removed, they can simply be shut down and be looked at like a pretty museum piece.

This post in no way implies they'll be doing that, but, just wanted to get it out there that something's iconic-ness is not a guarantee it will be kept running.
Was the earfull tower not also "iconic" ?
 

DisAl

Well-Known Member
I am beginning to wonder if the "Dilbert" comic strip gets a lot of its material from Disney management. (Of course, I think they got a lot from the company I retired from too. ;))
As they continue to let things go downhill they are making WDW less of a unique experience and making it just another amusement park. Sure, they are adding new things like the gondolas and new resorts, but they are letting some of the classics that attracted us in the first place fall into ruin. I guess iconic is outweighed by moronic.
 
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s8film40

Well-Known Member
But the original comment was about Vegas... not MK :) The MK was just used as a reference to illustrate what it means to have thousands approach a platform at the same time. Disney runs 4 trains, but never comes anywhere close to stuffing the cabins near capacity... especially with the stroller brigade. (and each train isn't pulling a new full load every 10mins). Plus their cab design is not optimized for standing.. so the MK system is especially weak for these peak loads. Yes, they get the advantage of both the Resort and Express loops (which LV doesn't..) and still can't handle the full load of the park exit. LV if I recall have an open floor plan with edge seating IIRC making their cabs more suitable.. but still something like 220 per train. So close to 1 light rail car... but the light rail is running 3 of those per train :)



I bet MK averages more like 36-40 people per train instead of 60.. and if a train only makes 2 loops an hour.. that would only net you about 500ppl an hour per train. Or 4000 people an hour for 8 eight trains. Even if you said they made 3 loops an hour.. that's still a pitance. And back to LV... they only have 9 trains total.. and 1 track to use in the 'leaving' direction so even tho their stock carries far greater # of people than Disney's.. even at 220 people per train.. dispatched every 4 minutes.. it's still pretty tiny compared to the 10s of thousands of potential riders.
I rounded down a little with those number because like you said there are lots of strollers and a lot less standing. If we look at just one section of a Disney monorail car there is seating for 10 and standing for 20. Let's assume only half the standing room is being used that's 10 seated and 10 standing so 20 x 12 sections per train = 240. That's a pretty low number I would say they usually get far closer to 300 and occasionally get close to the 360 capacity but let's go with 240. Now there are 4 trains potentially on each line so that's a total of 960 on express and 960 on resort. Express trains typically cycle at peak around 9-10 minutes, 11-12 minutes is considered poor performance so let's assume 5 laps per hours. Resort trains typically cycle 12-13 minutes at peak and 14-15 is considered slow. So let's just say 4 cycles an hour. So 960x5= 4,800 for express and 960x4= 3,840 for resort. So the MK monorail even in the most conservative estimate can take in a total of 8,640 people per hour. That's easily double the number you stated and the likely real world number should definitely be higher.

As for LV it is a revenue system so I suspect if it becomes super popular consistently enough they will add more trains. They do also have the ability to load two trains using both sides of their platform. So with the potential to have 8 car trains loading two at a time and with their better standing room layout the potential is there for them to create a very efficient system. In fact one that would likely put the light rail that you were speaking of to shame. Now will that happen who knows probably not. There are likely lots of other transportation methods there that will be utilized and the monorail will only compliment them rather than being relied on for the bulk of the transportation need.
 

Driver

Well-Known Member
I was actually there that night and I never understood quite how that happened (I wasn't on the platform or anything -just at the resort). Being at the resort is ancillary, though...

The kid died in the cockpit of the monorail train.

The train backing up towards him was coming at him and, I'm guessing it was moving at a rather slow clip / not full speed.

In my head it seems like he would have seen that and then did one of:
1) Shut the doors of his train and backup. You can argue that this is against procedure but you're about to have a collision and you're on a beam.
2) jumped out of the cockpit.

Unless the key is that the other monorail was supposed to be backing up on the other beam (and it was) and thus the kid really wasn't paying attention to his beam because his beam was out of order, in effect.
I am not at liberty to talk about the details of what happened that night. Your a little off on your explanation ( not trying to be mean to you) but as an FYI Monorails are considered "transportation " at WDW. They are under the same umbrella as busses and watercraft. Each has its own department under that. I will say the young man that lost his life was a hero. He was attempting to get the guest out of harms way. Very sad.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
While that's true, I think it does mean it's less likely to cease operations than other modes of transportation. If the Monorail goes, that removes a huge perk of staying at the Poly/Grand Floridian/Contemporary - not sure how you make up that perk..
Easy. Put a cupcake with a strobe light in every room at the Poly/Grand Floridian/Contemporary.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Express trains typically cycle at peak around 9-10 minutes, 11-12 minutes is considered poor performance so let's assume 5 laps per hours. Resort trains typically cycle 12-13 minutes at peak and 14-15 is considered slow

Thanks for that... that was the info I only had a spitball for... should have just looked at youtube for ridethroughs :) I under estimated that badly (noting it was a estimate)

But even if you rounded up to 10k from your 8k number. I think we can all agree if you have 10-20k people at once... no one thinks 2hrs to churn through that is enjoyable :)

As for LV it is a revenue system so I suspect if it becomes super popular consistently enough they will add more trains. They do also have the ability to load two trains using both sides of their platform. So with the potential to have 8 car trains loading two at a time and with their better standing room layout the potential is there for them to create a very efficient system

Given their open car design... the gain from simultaneous loading would probably be lost in the safety overhead and switching. Plus, it gets really complicated if you are trying to stage trains for the peak demand and are having to deal with multiple trains in this bottleneck AND add in extra switching. For every train they loaded concurrently, you still need to pass an empty train through your switch to get back to concurrent loading.

Now will that happen who knows probably not. There are likely lots of other transportation methods there that will be utilized and the monorail will only compliment them rather than being relied on for the bulk of the transportation need.

As is the train in the example I gave. It's only one of multiple transit options... but you really gotta do alot of gymnastics to get the monorails, even LV shuttle layout, to take a sizable portion.

The MK monorail works great for continuous access... not so great for peak demand. Even the President of LV's monorail cites a 3k per hour number as a base... https://www.reviewjournal.com/busin...t-mass-transit-for-las-vegas-raiders-stadium/ - and estimates for the expansion to Mandalay Bay are >100million for the monorail. So we're back to the multiple hours to churn through >10k people.

Ultimately their situation I'm sure will be answered by 'who pays for it'. LV Monorail can do the design work and then wave the project in front of the most desperate person... the city trying to fight conjestion, or the team owners who are desperate to combat their parking commitments :D
 

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