Monorail Expansion?

[TimeTrip]

It was posted somewhere a while ago. I will have to redraw up a quick schematic of it again, but it is really quite simple. Same route as teh current monorail to Epcot, except that you have to rotate the station around. Then back down to one side or the other of Epcot to the Studios, and then across and down to the the Animal Kingdom. A tram brings guests from Fort Wilderness and the Wilderness Lodge to the Magic Kingdom, you have bus service from Saratoga, Port Dixie, and Key West to Epcot. Either a bus or people mover connects the Epcot resorts to the Epcot station, and a shuttle or tram connects the Carribean, Pop Century, and Coronado to the Studios. All Star is connected to the Animal Kingdom.

So suddenly you're just connecting the Parks with monorail, not any more resorts.. you're not really trying the problem posed. All hotel guests have at least one transfer. There are lots of problems here. Here is one.. if you want to go to MK from MGM area at the beginning of the day, you have to wait for a bus to MGM.. wait for a monorail.. which could be full with AK area guests, then stop at Epcot, then go to TTC, transfer there and wait again. Wow.. thats alot of fun.

 

[peter11435]

By the way, there is no reason that you have to follow the current roads. I do not uderstand why your are including that - that is an example of completely illogical requirements that are there just to make things difficult.

Actually there is a reason. You can't just cut through undeveloped areas for two reasons. One it will become a huge problem when monorails divide sections you may want to develop in the future. Second, it will be cheaper to construct near roadways and developed areas, as the land is already stable.

As for your proposed route, while it sounds simple enough the majority of tourists will just not get it. Also unlike some choose to believe; most see no problem with the current transportation. The fact is that most people would hate to have to transfer to get to their destination. Not to mention it would not be as efficient. While monorail are cool (I love them), you have to understand that an expansion of the monorail system makes little sense for WDW both from on financial side and the efficiency side. Any expansion is almost certain to cost over a billion dollars, which is more than AK cost, and unlike AK, the monorail will generate zero profit.

 

[donsullivan]

....By the way, there is no reason that you have to follow the current roads. I do not uderstand why your are including that - that is an example of completely illogical requirements that are there just to make things difficult.

The reason you need to stay along the currently developed areas relates to a combination of property taxes, wetlands law (which is the biggest one) and soil conditions for construction.

If you develop the land, the tax structures change and you get hit with the resulting cost increases. Unless there is a substantial return on changing the tax structure of that area of land, it doesn't make sense. And no, you can't just change the slice that you cut a monorail beam through, the whole parcel would have to be reclassified.

Many of these undeveloped areas cannot be touched in any way if they are covered by the set-aside agreements that Disney made with the state as they've gone through their development over the years. In Florida, when you want to develop in an area that is wetland, there are very complex laws that restrict what you can do, and how much corresponding land must be set aside and be maintained completely in it's natural state with absolutely no development on it in exchange for development. No portion of Reedy Creek is immune to any of these laws. There was actually a complicated case of this surrounding the development of Celebration that I won't get into here.

There are a number of portions of the WDW property that are undevelopable with current building techniques. While not directly related to this discussion, a good example of this is the area just north of TTC that was earlier intended to be a 4th MK Area monorail resort. Soil tests in the late 80's early 90's determined that the land was not suitable for such development and those plans where shelved (at least until new construction techniques might become available). There are also many undeveloped areas, that are set aside as wilderness areas in the Master Plan and you can't change that.

There are a whole host of other things like long-term development planning, fire/rescue etc.. that I won't even get into with these sorts of things.

 

[cloudboy]

the majority of tourists will just not get it.

you have to wait for a bus to MGM.. wait for a monorail.. which could be full with AK area guests, then stop at Epcot, then go to TTC, transfer there and wait again.

Hm, I don't think you are quite getting the routing - perhaps this will help a little - forgive me, I am not a great artists and this was done a while ago.
Possible Monorail Route There is no TTC to go through. You get onto the monorail at one location and pretty much are on it until you decide to return to a resort. And since it is a monorail, you can get greater capacity by using larger vehicles and more frequent service (headway).

So suddenly you're just connecting the Parks with monorail, not any more resorts..

What do you mean suddenly? This is what was talked about years ago.

the majority of tourists will just not get it.

Pardon me for getting snippy here, but I am getting sick of the stupid guest comment. If they couldn't figure out how to get off a bus and onto a monorail they never would have made it through the airport or out their door to find the bus stop. It's one connection.

As far as construction (and I believe this thread got deleted some time ago),
no, the roads don't make much difference. Different type of construction - the roads are relatively flat and wide, with a different base. The monorail posts are deeper but concentrated in one area. As far as to the actuall routing, while there are a number of areas that are pretty unstable, it is not completely used up. Plus, it is a lot easier to make one footing stable than a wide road or building foundation.

The taxes and development rights and zoning are really beyond the scope of any of us to really discuss with real knowledge. In fact there is a question right at the start is the monorail a ride (thus a structure) or a transportation system? Does it fall under road guidelines and access or building regulations?

Also, this is Florida. You are not bushwacking your way through miles of never before explored land.

There is another thread in the general discussion forum that is rather lengthy and many of these points were already discussed.

 

[tigger248]

Hm, I don't think you are quite getting the routing - perhaps this will help a little - forgive me, I am not a great artists and this was done a while ago.
Possible Monorail Route There is no TTC to go through. You get onto the monorail at one location and pretty much are on it until you decide to return to a resort. And since it is a monorail, you can get greater capacity by using larger vehicles and more frequent service (headway).

Hmmm. So, if it's all one line, how long will it take me to get from, say, DAKL to MK? If I have to take a bus/tram/whatever to DAK, then transfer to monorail, which will make a zillion stops at parks and resorts. Plus, even then, there aren't any guaruntees that there will be space on the trains for more people. What if it's full and I have to wait another 10-15 minutes for another possibly full monorail? We're talking significantly longer, with all the switching, than if I took a bus straight from point A to point B. I like the fastest route, and your proposal just doesn't seem like the fastest route. Yes, monorails are cool and we all love them, but they're also less practical.

Also, what about if the trains get backed up and too close? They stop. It's happened to me more than once with the current system, causing an extra 5-15 minute delay. Not fun at all.

Then what about the MK parking lot? How often would there be any openings on the trains for those guests to get to MK? Seems like it'd be quite frustrating for those guests as well, since it would take much longer for them to catch a train and the ferry can only hold so many people at a time and come even less frequently.

This seems like another case of, if it's not broke why fix it?

 

[Invero]

It was posted somewhere a while ago. I will have to redraw up a quick schematic of it again, but it is really quite simple. Same route as teh current monorail to Epcot, except that you have to rotate the station around. Then back down to one side or the other of Epcot to the Studios, and then across and down to the the Animal Kingdom. A tram brings guests from Fort Wilderness and the Wilderness Lodge to the Magic Kingdom, you have bus service from Saratoga, Port Dixie, and Key West to Epcot. Either a bus or people mover connects the Epcot resorts to the Epcot station, and a shuttle or tram connects the Carribean, Pop Century, and Coronado to the Studios. All Star is connected to the Animal Kingdom.

Okay, so I see the drawing that you have set up. Here's my situation. MK closes at 10pm. As per those hours, they will have 8:00 & 11:00 Spectro, 9:00 Wishes. Most people stay in after the first Spectro to watch Wishes as well. Epcot closes at 9pm, with 9pm Illuminations. Studios will close at 9:00pm, with an 9:00 Fantasmic. (And yes, this does happen frequently)

9:15 rolls around, and the fireworks exit at the MK begins. All the All-Star folks bombard the new monorail system with thousands of people. The trains fill up. They head to Epcot. By this time, it's 9:25, and all those people from Illuminations have gotten out. Even more All-Star people bombard what space is left in the monorail. The train moves along to the Studios. It's 9:32. There is now no more space for the All-Star folks at the Studios to board. Train moves along to AK. Now the folks have to exit the train, and take a bus or whatever to the All-Stars. They're tired, cranky, and just want to get home. Even if they can figure out the transfer (and don't count on that), they would have MUCH preferred the direct bus, which would have taken half the time.

Or, flip it around. Morning time, MK early entry. Big day for MK. All-Stars board headed to MK. At Studios, CBR and Pop folks board. Train moves onto Epcot. There's now no more room headed to MK.

This phenomenon happens virtually every day at the Grand Floridian. I know this because I worked the AM shift there. By the time the trains got to my station, they were standing room only, *IF* there was room. A good portion of the time, I had to have folks wait for the second train. With a bus (ie: flexible transit) the full bus heads straight to the park, while another empty bus gets dispatched to the GF to pick up those left behind.

It's actually pretty simple if you stop trying to compare it to the current syustem - you simply hop on the next bus/shuttle/tram/mover what have you that connects your resort.

Guests don't like connections. They confuse the guests, and they take time. The detest them. They would rather take a bus than connect. They would rather pay money for a cab, than connect.

 

[Invero]

Pardon me for getting snippy here, but I am getting sick of the stupid guest comment. If they couldn't figure out how to get off a bus and onto a monorail they never would have made it through the airport or out their door to find the bus stop. It's one connection.

I get sick of it as well... well rather, I get sick of having to explain it to the guests. But the problem is that although it may seem simple and easy to you, it might not to everyone else. We're talking about folks who stand right underneath a bright orange sign with 12" letters that say "MAGIC KINGDOM" and ask where the bus goes.

Transfers take time, and get confusing. Most guests will get it... many will not.

 

[Woody13]

wow did someone not take their happy pill this morning?? perhaps a trip to disney might change that crabby mood.....


why can't we all just get along???

I will agree to take a happy pill every day if only other posters will agree to take their common sense pill too! :lol:

 

[Invero]

They have one of those pills? Can we slip it into all WDW food???

 

[cloudboy]

Can anyone provide some numbers for the guests who use the busses at the end of the night, or things like the number of busses running/headways to the different resorts?

 

[Invero]

Can anyone provide some numbers for the guests who use the busses at the end of the night, or things like the number of busses running/headways to the different resorts?

Attendance numbers aren't released by Disney, so I can't really give out that information. And without turnstiles or other counter devices counting the guests at the monorail, or the buses, it's hard to say how many go to each. My personal guess (and I could be way off on this, since I have nothing to base this upon except perception) is that it's somewhere close to 50% day guests, and 50% resort guests.

As for number of buses running, it's hard to say (especially at the MK), without access to the tablets. For example, at the Magic Kingdom, they may be running 35 buses in afternoon/evening, but come park exit, the number can double or even triple, thanks to Animal Kingdom floaters, and other area floaters. With advanced planning, we can schedule appropriately. As needed for (providing property wide staffing allows), we can increase or decrease that number at spur of the moment.

Typically, the MK will have it's set amount of buses running... and then you have the drivers on break. All breaks are done for the park exit, so then any shut down buses will be placed into service. Plus, after Animal Kingdom closes, all thier drivers then head out to the various parks, and help them out. Same thing with other early closing parks. Park exits are also dispatched differently. Instead of fixed dispatches, they're done on a more efficient visual basis. Buses get routed to where they're needed. If there is no one in a load zone, it doesn't get a bus. If there's only a small crowd in a load zone, they get a bus, but the bus holds for 5-10 minutes to maximize efficiency.

One interesting side note, during peak times (or when we expect the monorail to break down) we run something called Mouse House. These are buses that run from TTC to MK in the AM, or MK to TTC during the park exit. These buses typically run during holiday weeks, as well as other peak times (like just the other night).

That's the great thing about the buses. We can reroute them to wherever we need, without a problem. You can always add more buses. Even when you don't have any more to run. How? During extreme holiday peak times, we contract out through Mears to have coaches run the Mouse House, so that we can have more buses to the resorts. The coaches can also do single stops, such as All-Stars and Pop Century.

 

[Woody13]

That's the great thing about the buses. We can reroute them to wherever we need, without a problem. You can always add more buses. Even when you don't have any more to run. How? During extreme holiday peak times, we contract out through Mears to have coaches run the Mouse House, so that we can have more buses to the resorts. The coaches can also do single stops, such as All-Stars and Pop Century.

I like it when they do that sort of thing. The efficiency and flexibility of the WDW bus system is impressive! :wave:

 

[no2apprentice]

Tyler, you do a fantastic job answering questions about WDW's transportation system. Your input and (especially) patience are to be commended.

And now, another question. Some people have posted in these various monorail threads that they had long waits for a bus to arrive at some of the resorts. I seem to remember some discussion some time back that CM's were posted at the bus stops to monitor the when more buses were needed. Is this still being done? To your knowledge, have they considered using camera surveillance or other electronic technology to monitor the crowd levels at the resort stations?

 

[Invero]

Personally, I would LOVE to see more technology in use. Cameras at every stop to monitor lines, all feeding back to a central dispatch area. As geeky as it sounds, I've envisioned it all. (Yes, I'm a geek, I know...)

It's been a long time since I've worked a morning shift... however, the greeters are still there. Thier purpose? To interact with guests, keep them busy, and write down actual arrival times for the buses. They're out at most major stops between 7-11am.

 

[monothingie]

It's been a long time since I've worked a morning shift... however, the greeters are still there. Thier purpose? To interact with guests, keep them busy, and write down actual arrival times for the buses. They're out at most major stops between 7-11am.

Seems like a good idea for the major monorail stations MK and EPCOT just after wishes or ROE. Keep the people in line busy while they rush out of the parks. Which doesn't make any sense, because those are the times when the parks can be most enjoyable. But that is a topic for a different thread.

-ADN

 

[Invero]

There actually are folks out there, but thier primary job is audience control... answering questions, directing traffic, making sure folks dont cut in line, helping out when needed, etc.

Besides, we're talking about a few hundred people in the morning, versus a few thousand at night.

 

[Fantasmic!329]

As previous posters have made it quite clear, it will never happen. But with a little faith, trust, and pixie dust, maybe it will happen. lol (Sorry, I had to.)

 

[Fantasmic!329]

BTW, monothingie- great signature!

 

[cloudboy]

This seems like another case of, if it's not broke why fix it?

A few people have asked why I am so stubborn about the monorails. So I figured I would explain why I take this position.

I am very interested in transportation, anything from cars to trains to planes. I believe that one of the systems with the most potential, which is right now underdeveloped, is the monorail. For various reasons, there seems to be a lot of misinformation spread about in regards to monorails – some of this is intentional, but most is simply bad information someone picked up from someone else. The problem is that people use all this false information when they compare transportation systems. I think that this has some serious consequences in that poor decisions are made when choosing new transportation products and deciding where to spend transportation funds. So I want to correct those mistakes and counteract the “it will never work” mentality that has so often impeded progress.

I am also a idea person. And I hear so much talk about what Epcot could have been. It was Walt’s dream to make the Florida resort a city of the future. When I look at Walt Disney World, I see the beginnings of that city. It is a much bigger scale than what he initially imagined, much grander than Epcot itself. But many people don’t see that – they continue to see Walt Disney World as nothing but a few theme parks with a place to sleep in between them.

What if Walt Disney World was much more than that? What if the parks were just one of several activity centers? What if the “city” comprised of recreational areas (the parks), sports centers, shopping centers, theater districts, and natural areas to enjoy? What if the resorts became more than just accommodations, but destinations in themselves – villages, each with it’s own character and shops and restaurants? Connecting all of this would have to be a transportation system that made it easy to get from one point to another, instead of resort to park, park to resort.

Disney’s Animal Kingdom showed that there is a limit to the market that is interested purely in parks. This often times gets discussed in threads on why some people just don’t seem to be interested in Disney. To draw in more people, and get them to spend more time at Disney, the resort has to offer new things. It has to draw in different groups of people and offer them different experiences. By turning Walt Disney World into a city of tourism, you would be bringing in new guests and gaining new experiences. And this would lead to bigger profits, and more money to spend on new attractions and parks.

So next time you are at Walt Disney World, think outside the parks themselves, Think about the different resorts and activities, and what potential they offer.

 

[cloudboy]

In a nutshell, the main monorail line has four stops. Magic Kingdom, Epcot, Studios, and Animal Kingdom. The longest route (MK to AK or vice-versa) is three stops.

A new monorail system would be designed to serve as a transportation system, as close as 4 minute headways. The typical 10-15 minutes that is necessary because holdpoints are far apart is no longer a factor. Plus, new monorail vehicles can hold more passengers than the current designs. Monorails also load faster, and you do not have to wait for three other busses (not to your destination) to go by until you can get on. Perhaps that is the most user-friendly part of this. You don’t have to figure out which bus to get on.

Here’s how I imagine the monorail system working. This does rely on changing the station at Magic Kingdom (which would likely have to be done anyway because of the size limitations of the Contemporary). You have two beams, and they have a stub end at the Magic Kingdom station. Like all stations, just before the station is a cross over switch, so monorails can move between the two beams. Monorail #1 is in the station on the right hand side. It loads up it’s passenger load (at crush time it will fill completely). It has 6 minutes to unload, load and depart. About 3 minutes in, monorail #2 comes in. It crosses over and pulls into the left hand side of the station, and starts unloading passengers. The switch moves to allow the first monorail to cross over to the outbound beam, and it departs. The second monorail, meanwhile, is loading up it’s passengers, and gets ready for leaving, A third monorail pulls up in the right bay, the switch moves, and the second monorail departs.

So the first monorail (it has passengers for Epcot resorts, Studios Resorts, and Animal Kingdom resorts. Let’s say two cars for each. At Epcot, all the Epcot resort guests disembark. Guests from Epcot get off, and guests for Studios and Animal Kingdom resorts get on. Guests for the Magic Kingdom resorts will use the northbound beam, and Epcot resorts would be using the trams and shuttles. So there is now 2 cars of MK guests for AK, 2 cars of MK guests for Studios, and 1 car of Epcot guests for each.

Now, there are very few, if any, guests moving from AK or Studios at this point northwards. And there are not as many people going from Epcot north. Since we are at peak our headways are minimal, 3 minutes between trains (this is quite possible – some systems can do 2 minutes or less!) Instead of sending one train all the way up to Magic Kingdom and back down, every other train will cross over to the other track, and return to the station to pick up Epcot guests bound for the Studios and Animal Kingdom. This would, in fact, give excess capacity to Epcot, so perhaps not every other train would have to head back.

Another thing to remember is that a monorail loads much more quickly than a bus, and since it takes such a large number of passengers at once, it would seem like you are making more progress. You can achieve this by using a large number of busses, but then you are going to have huge backups at the parks since you can only load on bus at a time.