Monorail Expansion: Who is in favor, who isn't?

[slappy magoo]

As has been stated, time and time again, it'd be nice to expand the monorail if it didn't mean jacking up ticket/resort prices or cutting costs on other amenities. I wouldn't want to see advertising on the monorail cars to pay for it either. The whole idea of the monorail is to immerse yourself in the World, and it's hard to do with cereal and candy and new car ads staring at you. I don't particularly like them on the buses either, even if they're adveritising Disney-related products, ABC, ESPN, etc.

What I'd like to see is WDW try to develop a more attractive bus so people would stop griping about them. I don't know if double-deckers would be feasible, but that'd be cool. More comfortable seats would be nice. Mini-buses that can be reserved (for a fee) for larger parties so they don't overcrowd a bus with other strangers (and better still, perhaps for everyone, handicap-accessible vans for free for parties with someone who needs special assistance, so the jerks won't gripe that the guy in the wheelchair is taking too long, and he's got so many people with him, there won't be enough seats for anybody else). Video or music playing on the buses to make them more immersive.

Heck, Disney is already conquering Mears with the DME shuttle serrvice, why not tick off cab companies as well? Bring in really beautiful, London-style cabs that can be hired to bring people anywhere in WDW only. Make sure they're as evenly distributed amongst the resorts as possible. On those days where you just can't wait to get to the parks, you'd pay for that perk, and it's not only nice but, depending on the theming of the cab, an intimate World moment.

 

[TimeTrip]

Not that I have the answers, but I think you're making it more lopsided than it actually is

Think about how much you would save in fuel costs

You still need to generate elecriticity somewhere, the monorails don't run on nothing....

personell (how do you think those busses steer and get maintianed),

Well, we know you need a monorail driver, plus a few people at each station to handle loading/unloading,/control

equipment costs,

Are you saying that bus equipment is more expensive than monorail equipment??

road maintenance costs,

Well it costs money to maintain the beam too...

and insurance and asafety costs (busses may be flexible, they also get into a lot more accidents!)

Not sure how much worse monorail is here.. so I'll leave it alone

Lastly, think about the environmental costs of those busses, which are terribly polutive,

Like I said earlier, the electricity to run monorails has to come from somewhere, so there is pollution being generated somewhere....

require much more roadway and thus runof into the water system, and needed land, since to increase bus capacity you need a lot more room to handle those extra busses.

Sure busses need roadway, but they can efficiently share the roadway, which makes it easy to add and remove busses at peak times.

 

[lewisc]

I voted NO and gave my reasons. From the poll it isn't clear what is being asked. Expand the monorail to all the parks or all the parks and all the resorts or to all the parks and a central stop for resort clusters.

Expecting everyone to say yes but ignore issues like cost, capacity and the need to transfer twice to get to your destination isn't ridiculous, ignoring those issues is.

If Tink could make it I wouldn't vote for a monorail expansion, I'd go for something like a star trek transporter or the stargate rings.

you're acting as if the expansion of the monorail is automatically going to make the buses obsolete. You're making this thread more than it is, which is a simple yes or no question. it's not "are you ok for an expansion if..." it's simply would you like to have the monorail expanded to the other parks. No ridiculous arguments about cost or capacity or what will happen to the buses or buses v.s. monorails.

 

[WDW Monorail]

I voted NO and gave my reasons. From the poll it isn't clear what is being asked. Expand the monorail to all the parks or all the parks and all the resorts or to all the parks and a central stop for resort clusters.

Vagueness stimulates imagination.:animwink:
One of the greatest tricks in business.

 

[Fievel]

I'm not quite sure how much expansion would be good. For instance, what if the TTC had monorails to all the parks? Would all buses go straight to the TTC, where you'd have to contend with crowds from other hotels (even off-site ones?) To me, that defeats the whole purpose of having the bus service drop you off basically at the front door.

Now, if you had monorails running from each resort, you'd have an absolute TON of monorail track running everywhere, and you probably wouldn't see as many hotels being built because each would have to connect to the monorail somewhere. Convenient? I'm not sure because you'd still have to take the Monorail from the park to the TTC and transfer from there. Plus, all the monorail tracks would HAVE to have multiple stops. Take the frustration people at the all-star hotels feel and give that to every guest at every hotel because the monorail would have to make at least 6-8 stops for each circuit.

In the end, a monorail is a good idea in theory, but would end up costing more money than anybody would have to pay (the guest in the end), and would probably end up cost more time than the buses take anyway. Futuristic and cost-saving in the very-long run? Yes...but not at the cost.

 

[cloudboy]

One of these days I will leran to give up on trying to debate monorails logically and just realize no one cares. But until then...

Yes, monorails do run on electricity. Which it is much easier to regulate AND produce cheaply than a diesel-powered bus. It produces less emissions at teh end point and concentrates tehm at teh plant where they can be controlled easier.

A monorail vehicles can take the place of several busses, meaning fewer drivers. You do not need all the attendants that they currently use - there are monorail systems in the world that handle as much traffic and do so completely without people, drivers or otherwise!

Yes, I am suggesting that monorail equipment is cheaper. Longer lifespan, ability to carry more people (better space utilization) play a big role. And a concrete monorail beam requires much less maintenance than a paved road, which is a very maintenance intensive thing.

And no, you cannot get the kind of density on a roadway that you can with a controlled beamway. It's not just a matter of throwing more busses out there - you have to deal with parking spaces for the busses at the stops, putting that many busses through one gate, traffic flow issues.



I think the concern with busses isn't just how they look. If that was the overall concern, then there are other more wild ideas out there. I am promoting monorails because a guided system simply makes more sense when moving large numbers of people through limited destinations, and of teh guided systems, an rubber-tired straddle-beam monorail makes the most sense here.

 

[Bongoboy]

I personally think the WDW transperation system is fine as is. It's very simple. Bus or monorail, not very hard to figure out which one you need to use to get to where you need to go. I think they should expand it ONLY if they believe it is absolutley necissary not just for the sake of having an monorail go to every park. Because like I said before it's fine and simple as is and their no need to complicate things. And yes I think they should that money on better attractions in the park person

I have to go along with cameraguy on this.

 

[MickeyTigg]

Think about how much you would save in fuel costs, personell (how do you think those busses steer and get maintianed), equipment costs, road maintenance costs, and insurance and asafety costs (busses may be flexible, they also get into a lot more accidents!)

If the monorail per mile costs anywhere near it is reported to cost....the buses still come out cheaper than what it would cost to expand as some people are proposing.

 

[lewisc]

You haven't posted a single fact or statistic. Disney isn't stupid. If monorails were cheaper than buses they would have been built.

One of these days I will leran to give up on trying to debate monorails logically and just realize no one cares. But until then...

Yes, monorails do run on electricity. Which it is much easier to regulate AND produce cheaply than a diesel-powered bus. It produces less emissions at teh end point and concentrates tehm at teh plant where they can be controlled easier.

A monorail vehicles can take the place of several busses, meaning fewer drivers. You do not need all the attendants that they currently use - there are monorail systems in the world that handle as much traffic and do so completely without people, drivers or otherwise!

Yes, I am suggesting that monorail equipment is cheaper. Longer lifespan, ability to carry more people (better space utilization) play a big role. And a concrete monorail beam requires much less maintenance than a paved road, which is a very maintenance intensive thing.

And no, you cannot get the kind of density on a roadway that you can with a controlled beamway. It's not just a matter of throwing more busses out there - you have to deal with parking spaces for the busses at the stops, putting that many busses through one gate, traffic flow issues.



I think the concern with busses isn't just how they look. If that was the overall concern, then there are other more wild ideas out there. I am promoting monorails because a guided system simply makes more sense when moving large numbers of people through limited destinations, and of teh guided systems, an rubber-tired straddle-beam monorail makes the most sense here.

 

[MickeyTigg]

One of these days I will leran to give up on trying to debate monorails logically and just realize no one cares.

Yeah...you'd think by now....people would learn.

:lookaroun

 

[Hakunamatata]

Yeah...you'd think by now....people would learn.

:lookaroun

:lol:

 

[TimeTrip]

I am promoting monorails because a guided system simply makes more sense when moving large numbers of people through limited destinations, and of teh guided systems, an rubber-tired straddle-beam monorail makes the most sense here.

Maybe, but monorails are probably not the best for handling the tide and ebb of guest flow at Disney. Also, disney's layout is terrible for efficient fixed guideway systems. It looks like they layed out hotels/parks at the world in order to completely demolish the hopes of having an efficient monoaril system to said hotels/parks

 

[TimeTrip]

Yes, monorails do run on electricity. Which it is much easier to regulate AND produce cheaply than a diesel-powered bus. It produces less emissions at teh end point and concentrates tehm at teh plant where they can be controlled easier.

But by how much?

A monorail vehicles can take the place of several busses, meaning fewer drivers. You do not need all the attendants that they currently use - there are monorail systems in the world that handle as much traffic and do so completely without people, drivers or otherwise!

So you're suggesting to completely overhaul the disney mono system to get rid of employees? Your price has just gone up

Yes, I am suggesting that monorail equipment is cheaper. Longer lifespan, ability to carry more people (better space utilization) play a big role. And a concrete monorail beam requires much less maintenance than a paved road, which is a very maintenance intensive thing.

Well how does the price on a monorail car compare to a bus? How about replacement parts for a highly specialzed monorail versus a common bus? As for the paved road, I'm guess that all the CARS that run over the roads on a daily basis make much more of an impact than the busses do. Of course.. I could be wrong on that

And no, you cannot get the kind of density on a roadway that you can with a controlled beamway. It's not just a matter of throwing more busses out there - you have to deal with parking spaces for the busses at the stops, putting that many busses through one gate, traffic flow issues.

Well you can't just throw more monorails onto a beam either . Imagine if all the hotel guests heading to MK had to take the monorail instead of being dropped at the gate by bus. Due to the operation system in place they just can't drop anymore monorails onto the TTC/MK loop, they just won't fit within the MAPO system. Even on extremly busy days, they add busses from the TTC to the MK main gate because the monorails and ferry alone are not enough.

 

[cloudboy]

If the monorail per mile costs anywhere near it is reported to cost....the buses still come out cheaper than what it would cost to expand as some people are proposing.

BUT IT DOESN'T COST ANYWHERE NEAR WHAT MANY OF THE RUMORS SUGGEST!!!

I am not going to get into another point for point discussion here, we have done that in other threads. A good starting point (but make sure you cross check the idividual study reports) is www.monorails.org. You can get into all the various technical discussions over there.

I will simply sum up my standing as this: I think that the current Bus system has some serious faults - busses are environmentally challenging; there is way, way too much paved area on property, and that is in part due to the large number of busses that are used; and the number of busses and needed connections are becoming unworkable. A nice simple straight line system connecting the parks could be fed by simple shuttles, this would make it easier to get around (there is only on line to take, no decisions to be made other than which park or resort) as well as promote a centralized parking center. It would add value to staying on property (particularly if non-resort busses and guests parked or dropped off at a central garage instead of directly in front of each park), and it would encourage people to simply stay on property on their whole vacation instead of going off-site. And lastly, it is just plain environmentally responsible - the problems of multiple diesel busses and big roads with lots of runoff are really damaging to the air and water in Central Florida.

 

[TimeTrip]

A nice simple straight line system connecting the parks could be fed by simple shuttles, this would make it easier to get around (there is only on line to take, no decisions to be made other than which park or resort) as well as promote a centralized parking center

Make no mistake.. I love the monorail. I'm just stating reasons why monorail isn't such an easy win. Specifically for the point I quote above. There is no good simple straight line system to connect the parks with shuttles that would please the guests IMO. I welcome any drawings tho

 

[cloudboy]

Well, this was posted in a previous thred on the subject. It uses a trunk monorail with 4 stations, a train or other suitably themed connection for the MK resorts, Bus trams or BRT for the MArketplace nad those resorts, and peoplemovers for the remaining resorts. OF course any of the people moves oculd also be busses, parking trams, etc.

Edit: oops, forgot the link!

http://photoalbums.wdwmagic.com/showphoto.php?photo=12983&cat=500&perpage=12&sort=1&ppuser=10569

 

[lewisc]

Currently guests at the EPCOT resorts take a direct bus to the MK gate. Under this map they will take a bus to the main gate of EPCOT, then take a monorail to the TTC and finally transfer to the express monorail to the MK (actually it looks like the monorail may go directly to the MK but see my objection in the last paragraph) How is this an improvement? Currently those same guests walk or take a boat to the Disney-MGM Studios. Under this plan they'll take a bus to EPCOT and then take the monorail to the Studios. I doubt this would be in any real plan but it shows drawing a few lines on a map doesn't prove anything.

Currently a MK guest who wants to park hop to the AK takes a monorail or boat to the TTC and then takes a direct bus, although walking to the Contemporary and taking a bus is probably the best way. Taking a monorail to the TTC then taking the monrail to EPCOT, the Studios and finally to the AK will take longer. Guests from the POLY going to the AK will probably take twice as long as the current direct bus under your map.

From the map it looks like the monorail resorts are losing their monorail stations. Now that's a great plan. TTC is also loses their monorail station. The boat will work for them but I don't see who benefits from this plan. I guess the monorail from EPCOT to the Studios might be slightly better than the current bus, boat or walk but that's a lot of money for something small.

Well, this was posted in a previous thred on the subject. It uses a trunk monorail with 4 stations, a train or other suitably themed connection for the MK resorts, Bus trams or BRT for the MArketplace nad those resorts, and peoplemovers for the remaining resorts. OF course any of the people moves oculd also be busses, parking trams, etc.

Edit: oops, forgot the link!

http://photoalbums.wdwmagic.com/showphoto.php?photo=12983&cat=500&perpage=12&sort=1&ppuser=10569

 

[cloudboy]

Well, I guess that map wasn't very clear then, was it?

In this plan there is no TTC. You have the four main stations, plus the prime resorts (Contemp, Poly, Grand). We talked about putting on the Yacht amd Beach but seemed a little too close to the Epcot station. The boats never entered the equation, but idea was that there would be steady stream of trams, like the parking trams, that would connect the high-end resorts to the one station. From there most places you are going to go will be right on the line. No waiting for the right bus to come or figure out which bus to get on. All you have to remember is which station (of the 4) you are on.

Yes, there were a few occasions where there was a bit of a longer ride, but in many cases - particularly the Carribean or the Epcot resorts, you aren't waiting forever for the correct bus to come along.

The TTC is pretty much a gone idea. I mean, the only reason for it is for parking lot guests - no busses connect there. My particular favorite plan is to build a new line stopping only at AK, Studios, Epcot, and MK. To accomodate the extra capacity you would need a regular monorail, and that wouldn't fit through the contemporary anyway, so keep the resort loop to connect those resorts to the MK and MK station. I would then use a people mover loop (think the airport but with larger trains) for the Epcot resorts, Parking trams for Carribean and Pop Century, and busses for Port Dixie, Coronado, and the Marketplace.

 

[lewisc]

Based on the map the 3 monorail resorts were going to lose their monorail stations and guests that drive to the MK would lose the monorail as a mode of transportation to the MK. Neither made a lot of sense to me, I thought I must have mis-read the map.

Based on the map resort guests would take some kind of bus to get to a monorail station. Taking a bus directly to a theme park seems more efficient and probably faster. A monorail resort might be able to charge a premium, I don't see how this plan does this. This plan might make it slightly easier to park hop but I'm not sure how many guests do. I don't know how encouraging park hopping makes any money for Disney.

Sorry but I don't see any benefit from this plan.

Well, I guess that map wasn't very clear then, was it?

In this plan there is no TTC. You have the four main stations, plus the prime resorts (Contemp, Poly, Grand). We talked about putting on the Yacht amd Beach but seemed a little too close to the Epcot station. The boats never entered the equation, but idea was that there would be steady stream of trams, like the parking trams, that would connect the high-end resorts to the one station. From there most places you are going to go will be right on the line. No waiting for the right bus to come or figure out which bus to get on. All you have to remember is which station (of the 4) you are on.

Yes, there were a few occasions where there was a bit of a longer ride, but in many cases - particularly the Carribean or the Epcot resorts, you aren't waiting forever for the correct bus to come along.

The TTC is pretty much a gone idea. I mean, the only reason for it is for parking lot guests - no busses connect there. My particular favorite plan is to build a new line stopping only at AK, Studios, Epcot, and MK. To accomodate the extra capacity you would need a regular monorail, and that wouldn't fit through the contemporary anyway, so keep the resort loop to connect those resorts to the MK and MK station. I would then use a people mover loop (think the airport but with larger trains) for the Epcot resorts, Parking trams for Carribean and Pop Century, and busses for Port Dixie, Coronado, and the Marketplace.

 

[TimeTrip]

Looking at the map, you have a pretty big problem at peak times. What happens in the morning when guests from AK, MGM and Epcot resorts try to get to MK? The AK folks are in for a LOOONG ride. They'll also have to stop at MGM and Epcot first. The folks at MGM are likely to see a somewhat crowded train. The folks at epcot would see an even worse crowd. Same problem at park closing.. unless I'm reading your map wrong. The monorails can't keep up as it is when just taking the TTC folks back at closing. And you want to put all the other resort guests on there??